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The New United And The 767-400ER  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6558 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 25823 times:

I'm curious, how will the CO/UA merger affect CO's 767-400ER fleet? I have a feeling that the fleet planners from the UA side may not want these aircraft, as UA operates several 777-200As, and thus may prefer the 772A over the 764ER.

Also, both UA and CO have several 787s on order, and perhaps that would minimize the importance of the 764ER in the new UA's fleet. I'm pretty sure that DL would love to acquire CO's 764ERs for dirt cheap if the new UA decides against keeping them.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5983 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 25826 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I'm curious, how will the CO/UA merger affect CO's 767-400ER fleet? I have a feeling that the fleet planners from the UA side may not want these aircraft, as UA operates several 777-200As, and thus may prefer the 772A over the 764ER.

I think the 764s will be a great addition to UAs fleet and you will probably see them configured for different markets. ie: the 764/3/2 fleet may be configured in a J/Y configuration to serve more leisure oriented markets with the 777-200s retaining F class and flying the trunk routes to LHR/FRA ect.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 25735 times:

I could easily see the 764s on ORD-BRU/LHR/FCO/GIG etc.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23086 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 25655 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 2):
I could easily see the 764s on ORD-BRU/LHR/FCO/GIG etc.

Agreed. While the specific routes flown might change, I don't think the general uses of the two fleets will change much. The 77A is a great airplane for Hawaii - with the 753 for west coast flights probably the best in either carrier's fleet - and should continue to see service on those missions. Meanwhile, the 764 and 77E have coexisted for years at CO; there's no reason that won't continue.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 25362 times:

I can imagine the 764 continuing in a JY configuration while the 763 remains in an FJY configuration, the 764 being used on routes that don't need F and the 763 on ones that do.

I don't think we'd see both the 763 and 764 in a JY configuration because I think UA likes the flexibility of having F on an aircraft smaller than a 77E ... on the other hand, I could imagine F going on all international widebodies.

Either way, the 764 is hardly a useless size/range aircraft, it certainly can coexist with the 772 (the 763 is much closer to it than the 772 is) and is similar in many ways to the very successful A332.

If any CO widebodies are odd it is the 762s, which could be useful for premium-heavy "thin" routes. They'd also be perfect for p.s. (with F added) but I don't think there are enough of them for that.

I rather wonder if CO wishes it had just bought 763s rather than a combination of 762s and 764s, though.



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently offlineiaherj From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 25279 times:

I think we wish often that we had 763's at CAL. The 762 is a great airplane from a pilot's point of view and I dare say the flight attendants would agree with me from their standpoint as well. I see the aircraft becoming the transcon aircraft of choice offering 3 classes of premium service from SFO/LAX/SEA/SAN to EWR/JFK/IAD. I think we have enough 762's to offer 1 flight a day in each direction at the peak hours to each of these destinations offering lie flat business class service on this lucrative route while being able to carry a lot of cargo and still top Summer weather providing a fast/comfortable ride for the passengers. Fill in 755-200's from UAL and 757-300's from CAL on the rest of the transcon flights and you have good coverage and lift on these important mainline routes.

Now, as far as the 764 goes, it is going nowhere. These things are practically brand new. They will start the lie flat seat installation in 2011-2012 and become the aircraft of choice to Hawaii and beyond to GUM/NRT as well as South America routes that have no need for a F/B/Y configuration. The 772's of UAL that aren't ER's are going to be great for EWR and some of the 763's will be a great fit for several 757 routes we fly that could use the extra capacity/range/cargo capacity. Our 764's will probably fill in on ORD as well as LAX routes that are robbed of 763's as capacity gets shifted around the new system.


Just my opinion.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineUA777lover From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 24947 times:
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I for one hope they stay! Am looking forward to my first trip on a 767-400!

User currently offlinerwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 24189 times:

There is very little overlap between the two networks, and CO's widebody fleet is stretched to the limits. I don't really understand how people can think "UA planners won't want these", unless there is a vast number of unprofitable international routes that the merged carrier is planning to drop. If anything, I think that the combined carrier could use more medium-sized widebodies in order to start retiring some of the older 757s.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22572 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I'm pretty sure that DL would love to acquire CO's 764ERs for dirt cheap if the new UA decides against keeping them.

I think there's 0.0 chance of UA giving anything up to DL.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5531 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 22454 times:

They are very efficient aircraft for transatlantic service, where their limited payload-range capability is not an issue. If it wanted to get rid of any widebodies, the combined carrier would look at the 762s first and then the oldest 772As.

In fact, I think the combined carrier might think about making the 764s 3-class and deploying them to LHR and FRA from EWR, IAD, and ORD.


User currently offlinewarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 21610 times:

Are the CO 764's GE or PW?

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5983 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 21519 times:

Quoting warreng24 (Reply 10):
Are the CO 764's GE or PW?

GE



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6781 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 21080 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I'm curious, how will the CO/UA merger affect CO's 767-400ER fleet? I have a feeling that the fleet planners from the UA side may not want these aircraft, as UA operates several 777-200As, and thus may prefer the 772A over the 764ER.

...

I'm pretty sure that DL would love to acquire CO's 764ERs for dirt cheap if the new UA decides against keeping them.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me. CO's international expansion has been somewhat constrained by a lack of widebody aircraft, and it's not entirely clear that UA's fleet planning team will end up running the show in any event. Did Delta sell A330's to US Airways dirt cheap because the Delta fleet planners might not have wanted the planes?


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4288 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20356 times:
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Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 4):
If any CO widebodies are odd it is the 762s, which could be useful for premium-heavy "thin" routes. They'd also be perfect for p.s. (with F added) but I don't think there are enough of them for that.

I rather wonder if CO wishes it had just bought 763s rather than a combination of 762s and 764s, though.

If you compare the way Star Alliance partners CO and US are using their international 762s -- CO seats 174 passengers in two classes while US seats 203 in two classes -- a difference of 29 seats.

USAirways' international 767-200ER seating configuration [from Seatexpert.com]
Continental's international 767-200ER seating configuration [from Seatexpert.com]


So CO's 762s don't seat that many more than their own international 757s. On the other hand, US appears to have a better revenue setup.

Am I missing something here?


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20292 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
I think the 764s will be a great addition to UAs fleet and you will probably see them configured for different markets.

I think so too. They are pretty new and efficient. TATL and South America seem like destinations too. A unique selling point of the 764's is that they offer 230 seat in a spacey two class layout + still fit ICAO CAT D gates. No so for A330, 777, 787.. The 762ER might not be the most economical machines available but most passengers won't protest if they replace some 757s TATL..

Boeing aimed the 767-400ER at AA, UA, but 9-11 put an end to those hopes. Now it will fly for UA afterall.



User currently offlinediscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 19831 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
So CO's 762s don't seat that many more than their own international 757s.

In fact, a CO 752 seats one MORE passenger than a CO 762. However, the 762 is much more J-heavy.


User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 19774 times:

I think you'll see the 767-400's configured the same as the 767-300 at United and used for additional lift where the
markets are underserved with the -300's.

It would surprise me to see the 757's remain on trans-atlantic markets. United has not shown any interest in
single aisle transatlantic flying.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5983 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 19612 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I'm pretty sure that DL would love to acquire CO's 764ERs for dirt cheap if the new UA decides against keeping them.

I think there's 0.0 chance of UA giving anything up to DL.

I would completely agree with that...  UA will do many things after the merger but helping DL in any way is not one of them.

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 16):
It would surprise me to see the 757's remain on trans-atlantic markets. United has not shown any interest in
single aisle transatlantic flying.

True but that would mean abandoning quite a few transatlantic markets that simply cant support a 767...ie BFS.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 19014 times:

It's going to be a great opportunity for pilots to get cross-certified on a lot of airplanes. Won't UA pilots get certified on both variations of the 757 as well as the 762,63,64 and the 77A?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineGoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18973 times:

I don't know much about the seat configurations or the numbers following the types of planes i.e. 777-300. However, I think if UA doesn't want the 767s they could sell them to airlines in need for dirt cheap, thus allowing other airlines on the low end of the totum pole to get higher in the market. for example, FL. they seem to be doing great and maybe 767s would give them an edge on other airlines in their category.


From the airport with love
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18704 times:

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 16):
It would surprise me to see the 757's remain on trans-atlantic markets. United has not shown any interest in
single aisle transatlantic flying.

I thought that CO management would be the ones calling the shots post-merger, therefore, if the new CO/UA wants 757s flying Trans-Atlantic, they'll continue to fly TA. Am I mistaken??  



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18587 times:

Quoting c5load (Reply 18):
It's going to be a great opportunity for pilots to get cross-certified on a lot of airplanes. Won't UA pilots get certified on both variations of the 757 as well as the 762,63,64 and the 77A?

I highly doubt it. Just like DL pilots are not flying the old NW 747s
And there is only 1 certification for the 757

[Edited 2010-06-25 09:35:40]

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6781 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18379 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
If you compare the way Star Alliance partners CO and US are using their international 762s -- CO seats 174 passengers in two classes while US seats 203 in two classes -- a difference of 29 seats.

...

So CO's 762s don't seat that many more than their own international 757s. On the other hand, US appears to have a better revenue setup.

Am I missing something here?

What's missing is that CO probably gets a better revenue premium for its J class than US, since it offers a more spacious product.

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 16):
It would surprise me to see the 757's remain on trans-atlantic markets. United has not shown any interest in
single aisle transatlantic flying.

United doesn't have enough 763's to replace CO's 757's on the transatlantic routes from EWR. And if CO is successfully using the 757 to Europe, why exactly would United's management -- even presuming that they are the ones running fleet/route planning rather than CO's team -- dump a model that has worked well for CO? United has shown little interest in flying ERJ's to Mexico, so is it safe to assume that they're going to drop the CO Express flying to Mexico?


User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18321 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 21):
highly doubt it. Just like DL pilots are not flying the old NW 747s
And there is only 1 certification for the 757

FYI, the 747 and 777 are the only fenced fleet types. All other fleet types are open to all pilots that can hold the spot.

This I could actually see as with DL 757/767 pilots are certified to fly all types, I believe the only difference being International verse Domestic and the 764 is seperate I believe.

DL Pilots I believe are broken up like this Domestic 757/767, International 757/767 and 764, Though I thought I remember reading somewhere that the pilots were put all together at one point.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I could actually see the UA/CO merger going through without any fencing of fleet types, but maybe I am wrong.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4288 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 18191 times:
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Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
I thought that CO management would be the ones calling the shots post-merger, therefore, if the new CO/UA wants 757s flying Trans-Atlantic, they'll continue to fly TA. Am I mistaken??



No -- it is a merger of equals rather than a slice-and-dice takeover by Continental interests.

That said, business rather than fan pride will determine what the new company dispatches.


25 DualQual : The 764 is broken out as it's own catagory at DL. I think DL still has a separate int'l group for 757/767 but I think that is slowly going away favor
26 iaherj : That is because United has no single aisle aircraft capable of trans-atlantic markets period. Many of United's 757's are so old they cannot be fitted
27 TOMMY767 : UA is going to need those 757s for the domestic network. They do fine on routes like OMA-DEN etc. Not all the combined 757s have to cut out for long
28 Cubsrule : They may do fine, but a 739 (particularly non-ER) would do better.
29 kgaiflyer : This is where I get confused. Every IAD-to-Europe 763 I've ever been on has been filled -- remember the Federal government spends millions of dollars
30 kgaiflyer : IINM, CO only has a small handful of these. UA uses its 97 757s on its domestic network.
31 AmricanShamrok : The new United Airlines may use the 764 on the IAD-MAD route, as maybe they would then have a more suitable aircraft than the EI-operated A332s. The r
32 aznmadsci : Would this be year round? The last two years EWR-TXL has gone to 762 during the winter because of strong headwinds that caused the flight to make a t
33 CODC10 : TXL will get a widebody as soon as CO can schedule one on it. The flight is at about the max for the 757's range and is required to take fuel stops m
34 kgaiflyer : Could be, but I don't know why since it's making money. Personally, I get to Bristol from Paddington Station on the First Great Western. But I don't
35 flylku : Who owns them, CO or a leasing company?
36 kgaiflyer : True, and the mistake is that some see IAD and EWR as the same O&D traffic. They are completely different markets.
37 futureorthopod : With the impending merge do you guys think the 764 will be placed back on medium haul flights between hubs and large connecting cities?...e.g. IAH to
38 kgaiflyer : And before that, a DC-10-30 which I've flown more than once.
39 yellowtail : BRS is ending. Me too...always packed to the gills with transfers from Central America
40 drerx7 : Absolutely NOT. That makes no sense, why would CO give up an entire operation that is profitable? I would say so, in fact I would guess that you woul
41 1337Delta764 : They are outright owned by CO.
42 AADC10 : UA's strategy in Europe was to serve mostly LHR and other cities that could support three class 772 service. Only a couple of European cities receive
43 B747forever : Well how about ARN? ARN is almost as far away from EWR as TXL is but still people always talk about how CO pushes their 757s to the max to reach TXL
44 aznmadsci : ARN and OSL may also get upguaged to a 762/763. Does anyone know how often ARN-EWR and even OSL-EWR take a technical stop during the winter? As menti
45 kgaiflyer : I understand the raw logic, but then why not just buy more 762s optimized to 203 passengers as USAir does?
46 Cubsrule : To where would they use them?
47 United1 : That is incorrect the majority of them are owned by Wells Fargo Leasing...15 of them are owned by CO. UA has 16 ETOPS 752s that can fly transatlantic
48 DC8FanJet : [ And the source for your wisdom on the subject is?? United's 757's aren't "old", and quite a few are already have winglets installed, including some
49 BMI727 : There is that, and another thread alluded to the fact that the insurance on those planes would be much higher if they sent them overseas or something
50 kgaiflyer : At IAD in the place of the BizFirst 757s
51 SonomaFlyer : CO has 20 or 30 739ER and their 737 Boeing order gives them the flexibility to specify more 739ER's. Depending on the age, mechanical and other econ
52 328JET : I think Airbus, Boeing, PW, GE and RR sales-people will have a lot of sleepless nights in the next year... Nobody really knows how the combined Airbus
53 BOACCunard : Not really. There is a point at which each fleet is so big that it would save little money, if any, to "streamline" them. It doesn't work that way. M
54 kgaiflyer : On day #1 of the merger, the *new* United will use the narrowbodies it has on the shelf and be thrilled. That's the reality in a merger of equals. Th
55 BOACCunard : And when there is a "dream" airplane from Boeing or Airbus that will replace the A320, 737NG and 757. UA is not going to do a "cross-grade" from A320
56 Cubsrule : Why? They are much more expensive to operate.
57 BMI727 : Yeah, you would want to use the 762s for routes where you need the range over the 757. For the new UA, this probably means some Chicago, keeping them
58 BOACCunard : I guess the idea is to send them to places the 752 can't get to from IAD. But really, the problem with the 762ER is that it barely costs any more les
59 328JET : Come on folks, it would for sure save a lot of money to streamline the fleet very quickly. It is not only the aircraft types, it is also the engine ty
60 Cubsrule : How much? The fleets are so large that the cost differential isn't that high. ...or the cargo lift.
61 justlump : Just curious, where are the Boeing narrowbodies? What about Continental's 226 strong (and relatively new ) fleet of 737s? And the 321? It is well kno
62 United1 : Exactly...the difference in operating 300 of one type or 150+150 of two different types it negligible. That difference would not offset the cost of r
63 BMI727 : That is exactly what I was going to post, but I had to leave. But I can break down the numbers. Ex-UA 747-400 25 757-200 (PW) 96 767-300ER 35 777-200
64 scorpy : I suspect its a combination of cost and gate spacing issues at ORD. I was on a UA winglet equipped 752 recently and we had to wait 30 minutes for a g
65 United1 : Those are both reasonable reasons why UA hasn't equipped its 757 fleet with winglets. The aircraft are not, as a poster said, incapable of being equi
66 kgaiflyer : You really think not? Delta and USAirways do it every day of the week.
67 BOACCunard : No, it wouldn't. The A320 and 737NG fleets are each large enough that there are few economies of scale to be had in combining them. It's inefficient
68 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Interestingly enough, I wound up yesterday flying USAirways ORD-CLT-TPA -- the CLT-TPA segment was an upgrade on a 734. The plane, while not new, app
69 328JET : Do you all really think that UA/CO will keep their fleet as big as it is right now? NO! Because otherwise the saving would be much smaller. They will
70 STT757 : There's very little overlap, outside of the downsizing of CLE there will not be much consolidating of operations. This merger is about network develo
71 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Really? --Are you speaking of the P.S. 752s on which millions were spent for winglets, WiFi, and 3-class service? --Are you speaking of the ETOPS-qua
72 drerx7 : No factual basis or concrete thought process in your assumption. The oldest 757s may begin trickling out of the fleet as 739ERs come on board; but do
73 328JET : In europe the B752 is virtually replaced already as it is old, innefficient technology in cmparison to the A321 and B739ER. The same will happen withi
74 Cubsrule : Can the 739ER or the 321 fly MIA-BSB or EWR-HAM?
75 328JET : @ Cabsrule Can you please read my previous post completely...? I wrote: "The combined UA/CO will not need such a small longhaul aircraft much longer a
76 Cubsrule : I did - but you didn't say CO/UA would dispose of them. You said they'd disappear "within the United States." The UA/CO merger doesn't appreciably ch
77 Post contains images 328JET : @ Cubsrule (sorry that i wrote your name incorrect in my last post) I wrote in reply 69 that i expect the B752 to leave the fleet soon.
78 kgaiflyer : You don't seem to get US / Canadian geography. East-West EWR-SFO is about the same as East-West THR-LHR. That's in the range of a 757 more than a 321
79 BMI727 : Not that soon. So what about Delta? They are a gargantuan airline on the same order as the new United, and yet they still use many 757s on transatlan
80 seabosdca : We will leave aside the domestic 752s for the time being, because the international ones alone show this won't happen. CO has a fleet of 41 757-200s
81 Antoniemey : Your definition of small needs some adjusting in this context... As currently configured (and it could change after the merger, but that would take 2
82 Eagleboy : Looking at the UA joint venture with EI out of IAD. It was supposed to ramp up to 3 routes ex-IAD. Basically UA sell tickets on the EI A332 which is
83 STT757 : IAD-MAD is well within the range of CO's trans-Atlantic 757s, so yes I think there's a good chance IAD-MAD on UA metal is likely.
84 aznmadsci : To add all of CO's 752s already have AVOD and in-seat power nose-to-tail. If UA's 752s are fit to do TA flights, I would expect them to undergo simil
85 kgaiflyer : We seem to keep going in the same loops--don't we? UA 752s don't do trans-Atlantic and never did -- even the three-class P.S. frames with winglets an
86 328JET : Guys, i love to see you all fighting for the B752, which is a really great airplane in my opinion. But as everything gets old and inefficient in compa
87 BMI727 : Except that there are no alternatives that are able to do all of the things that the airlines want them to be able to do. These alternatives you spea
88 SonomaFlyer : In the new United, the ETOPS certified 752's could be given new missions once the fleet is sync'd together and new aircraft are delivered. Those 752's
89 Antoniemey : That really depends on the airline and the individual airframe. If an airline bought all of their 757s 20 years ago, has used them heavily, and isn't
90 Post contains images 328JET : Ok, i waste my time here with arguments as I have to accept that everbody will fly the B752W for the next three decades... @ BMI727 You really do not
91 328JET : @ Antoniemey I do not believe that the route network will be reduced. I wrote that i believe that bigger aircrafts like B762 from CO or B763 from UA w
92 BMI727 : It won't be three decades, but the 757s certainly are not on their way out as fast as you think they are. I get your point, but your point is somewha
93 Post contains images 328JET : @ BMI727 Oh come on! You have to compare a B752 and B762/3 with a regular, comparable configuration. Otherwise you could also say that for example a C
94 BMI727 : What are you talking about? I compared configurations from the same airline. Continental is the one that configured their 757s with more seats than t
95 328JET : @ BMI727 Let us stop here. Next you will show me how fantastic the CASM of the B752W in COs high density in comparison to a UA B763 in normal density
96 BMI727 : Even though the CASM of the 763 may be higher, they will probably get higher yields as well. That is completely intentional on the part of the airlin
97 328JET : @ BMI727 Simply compare the floor areas of the B752 and B762 or B763.
98 kgaiflyer : Why? Simply compare them for what particular aim or purpose?
99 328JET : @ kgaiflyer because "BMI727" does not want to realize that a B752s can only be operated cheaper per pax than a B762/3 IF the seat density on the B752
100 rheinwaldner : Because they are kind of a common denominator that allow to compare the capacity of different aircrafts (because the effect of varying configurations
101 Post contains images drerx7 : Thats fine and all but it has no relevancy to the topic about what a merged airline will do with the aircraft it has. Your theories are completely fl
102 328JET : @ drerx7 No, they could not have operated bigger airplanes in the past, because there was no demand, AND more important, no money to buy bigger airpla
103 LY777 : Do CO 764s and 762s have AVOD?
104 UAL777UK : All I can say is that I would like to see the 764 at LHR playing some role. I am sure it has a role to play in the "new" aitline and LHR would seem a
105 seabosdca : And, if traffic grows enough for that to happen (which it will not at all of the current European 752 destinations), the 752s will open new, smaller
106 UAL777UK : It kind of begs the question then, why did Boeing ditch the 757 and not try to develop a 757NG along the lines of the 737?
107 drerx7 : Well, the 757 orders dried up, it wasn't until relatively recently that carriers discovered its niche en masse.
108 STT757 : They have PTVs but not AVOD, they are slated to have AVOD installed once the 777 fleet is complete.
109 seabosdca : Because the 757 market is a niche market, even if it's here to stay. Which would you rather use your assembly line to do: build 200 757s or 2000 737s
110 kgaiflyer : Okay. Then take the 762. Airlines have chosen seating configurations of from 174 to 242 for the airframe. Configured at 174, and being much heavier t
111 Cubsrule : On routes over about 3800 nm, the 752 cannot do the same job because the 752 can't make it.
112 ScottB : Duh. The point is that the idea of dumping CO's transatlantic 757 flying is as ludicrous as dumping the ERJ's to Mexico just because "United doesn't
113 STT757 : CO has 195 737NGs (35 700s, 117 800s, 43 900/900ERs), plus 41 firm orders. UA has 152 A319s/A320s Both are substantial, neither are leaving the fleet
114 SonomaFlyer : The combined airline's fleet plan is based on (if not hamstrung by) the delivery slots they have for new aircraft. I'm certain there are some of the 7
115 UAL777UK : Point taken but the 737 does not replace the 757 on TATL ops on which it gets more and more popular. I still think the 757 was ditched too early and
116 Post contains images BMI727 : Well, let's see. We know that a 767 is larger than a 757, so it burns more fuel. So with the same number of seats it will have a higher CASM than the
117 TOMMY767 : A good amount of them were delivered in 1994-1995. Same with UA.
118 AADC10 : The remaining 762s available for purchase are mostly old, retired aircraft. They are the least efficient widebody still in common use and if fuel pri
119 flyingclrs727 : About 10 years ago, there were articles in the Wall Street Journal discussing the conversion of the 737 and 757 lines to moving lines. It was suggest
120 United1 : COs 752s are 13.5 or so years old on average UAs are a little over 18.5 years old on average. CO (11*1994, 4*1995, 2*1996, 6*1997, 10*1998, 5*1999 &a
121 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Yes, I understand that United was the launch customer for the original non-ER version 767-200, and that there are eight decommissioned frames on the
122 TOMMY767 : Weird how UA feels this way about the early build 757s. DL and AA have 757s that are just as old and have no firm plans to get rid of them at this ti
123 United1 : DLs and AAs are on average a little younger then UAs are however you're absolutely right that AA has aircraft that are just as old as UA and DL actua
124 kgaiflyer : Younger? I find that hard to believe. I remember flying to a job interview at a university in Alabama back in 1985. First leg of the DCA-ATL-MGM trip
125 jfk777 : The 762ER and 757 are two entirely different airplanes. The only things in common are they are both Boeings and can carry about 175 people each. The
126 seabosdca : We were specifically discussing TATL 752s (the only kind that would make sense in what started as a 764ER thread). All of the carriers using part of
127 Post contains images BOACCunard : Indeed. In particular the 762ER is a very odd airplane ... it does have its niche but there are simply not many things that it can do that a 763ER ca
128 Post contains images BMI727 : Well, that is what 328 Jet doesn't quite get yet. Well, that and a type rating. But as far as missions go, the main focus of this discussion, they ar
129 seabosdca : UA has two batches of 763ERs in its fleet: 21 delivered from 1991 to 1993 and 14 delivered from 1998 to 2000. If the merger goes through, I'd be shoc
130 United1 : I guess but I'm not so sure that age has allot to do with ETOPS... ...and the 25 787-8s are slated to replace the 21 international 763ERs UA hasn't d
131 Antoniemey : Not to places like Manchester and Edinburgh, they won't. The 762 will cost too much to fly there (apart from being needed elsewhere for its range) an
132 Cubsrule : It's a cute hypothetical, but from where will UA get these mythical ten widebodies?
133 STT757 : The oldest UA 757-200s with the highest cycles will most like be replaced with new 737-900ERs, the newer UA 757s and the ETOPs rated 757s will probabl
134 328JET : Guys, some of you are really funny in fighting for the fantastic B752, which i really like. I wonder if you would fight for a similar Airbus (if it wo
135 BMI727 : This isn't a matter of fanboyism or nationalism. It is a matter of facts. That is extremely unlikely to be the case. That is certainly not what happe
136 328JET : @ BMI 727 Dream on... I believe it will happen even worse for these B752-routes: The strong position of UA/CO within the star alliance will bring seve
137 BMI727 : What do you mean "even worse." Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single transatlantic 757 route that Delta cut due to the merger. Not to men
138 328JET : Americans like keeping things as they are, don´t they...? But to be honest with you: Most US Airlines are not in the financial position to prefer any
139 TOMMY767 : I'm still not buying this logic. In the height of the DL/NW merge did DL immediately dump the DC-9-30/40? No, they held onto them and are still holdi
140 Antoniemey : This is true... and operating the 757s on international routes to smaller European cities is basically printing money for CO, which allows them to su
141 Post contains images BMI727 : And more importantly, if it wasn't making money they wouldn't be doing it anymore. But they are, because they make money doing it. Well, they are the
142 david_itl : You do realise that both MAN and EDI are twice daily on the 757 and that MAN saw the route go from 757 to767 to DC10 to 777 on a daily basis before c
143 LY777 : So, when will the AVOD installation be complete on the 772s?
144 bmacleod : It would be a logical choice to put the 764ERs on Chicago - European routes that aren't filling up the 777s. ORD-HNL would be another possibility....
145 STT757 : Yeah but DL/NWA had no aircraft on order, or anything substantial in the narrow body category. CO has 41 firm orders for 737s, with dozens of options
146 Post contains images seabosdca : And that means pressing whatever competitive advantages they have. The ability to use 757s hub-to-point is a major advantage U.S. airlines have over
147 CODC10 : Perhaps, but the P2P transatlantic routes are moneymakers for CO. Why would this change under a merger? Why would UA choose to dilute this revenue by
148 Cubsrule : Why would they go the same way as European airlines rather than DL? Maybe, but given that there are a grand total of two 757 destinations that see mo
149 drerx7 : Right, my guess is IAH-HNL will see 777 service again. EWR, not so sure because its 764 cycles to Europe whereas IAH-HNL are Pacific configured birds
150 Cubsrule : I don't see a tremendous amount of change in the Hawaii aircraft allocation in the short term, actually, simply because of the way the schedules work
151 TOMMY767 : They have 97 of them though. Can't justify only keeping bunch. Many are in very good shape inside and out.
152 STT757 : Well it's more than a bunch, let's say they keep 30 (ETOPS, PS aircraft) UA 757-200s, that would mean combined with CO's 757-200s the new UA would ha
153 drerx7 : Hypothetically, if the merger is approved by December like everyone is suspecting (if I'm not mistaken); how soon would we see cross fleeting?
154 TOMMY767 : 30? Do you honestly think that UA is going to shed some 70 757s over the course of the merger? That would be such a drastic loss in capacity it would
155 STT757 : I'm not saying over night 70 aircraft will disappear after the merger, however as the 41 737s on firm order are delivered over the next 3 years UA/CO
156 STT757 : Obviously CO and DL could not have more divergent fleet plans/philosphies, which is why CO has the youngest jet fleet and DL the oldest of the majors
157 TOMMY767 : I'm thinking in terms of what is something both CO and UA can't do right now in their current forms? Expand. They can't because they have already max
158 STT757 : That strategy means UA's 757s have much higher cycles than CO's, CO has been flying trans-Atlantic with their 757-200s since May 1995. Also again fro
159 STT757 : Obviously the first batch of 787s are being dedicated to network growth vs. 767-200/767-300 replacement, with 50 787s on firm order plus the 25 A350s
160 TOMMY767 : CO started EWR-MAN IIRC in 1995 but didn't start using the 757s massively on TATL routes until early/mid 2000s. CO had the DC-10s for many EWR intern
161 drerx7 : True, but how fiscally able were they to order more back then?
162 TOMMY767 : IIRC, when they placed the orders they were in pretty good shape but when they started taking actual 772/764/762 deliveries they were in exceptional
163 STT757 : CO ordered 757-200s, 767-300s, A330s and A340s during the Fegurson term. Gordon cancelled all but the 757 orders which started being delivered in Mar
164 TOMMY767 : STT, do you recall what the deal was with the DC-10s? Was CO planning to keep them before 9/11 happened? CO kept them in pretty decent shape.
165 STT757 : CO acquired a bunch in the late '90s, they were very happy with them and they would have definitely gone longer save for three issues: 1.) concerns a
166 TOMMY767 : Gotcha thanks for that. But weren't they super expedited after 9/11 anyway?
167 Antoniemey : IF there were 777s to spare there could be a case for replacing the 2 757 frequencies with 1 777... but why? You can fly that 777 to somewhere that n
168 TOMMY767 : In the case of UA merger however I wouldn't expect EWR-MAN to go to 777 but maybe a UA 763 and also wouldn't be surprised if they re-start IAD-MAN on
169 kiwiandrew : "re-start" ? Did UA ever operate IAD-MAN ? I remember IAD-GLA but not IAD-MAN . Is my memory failing ( again !)
170 TOMMY767 : Yep. They flew it in the early 1990s IIRC (unless it was from ORD?) EDIT: It's late, I'm going crazy, someone help![Edited 2010-07-01 00:41:57]
171 Post contains links kiwiandrew : Are you sure ? I can only find two UA planes at MAN in the photo database , and they are both captioned as diversions from LHR , in contrast when I s
172 UAL777UK : UA have never flown IAD-MAN.....the only time UA goes into MAN is if there is a biversion, such as fog at LHR.
173 Post contains images Deltal1011man : Which is why all the new Europe flights Delta have added post merger, JFK-ARN/CPH/ZRH PIT/PHL-CDG, have been on the.....wait for it......wait for it.
174 gkirk : Could the 2 x Daily EWR-EDI 757 turn into a 1 x Daily EWR-EDI and 1 x Daily ORD-EDI both 757s?
175 STT757 : Two 757-200s is still more capacity than a 777-200.
176 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Not in the true sense. It was a BMI codeshare -- introduced with great fanfare and with water-canon trucks on a Saturday afternoon if I remember corr
177 UAL777UK : Your absolutely right. BD made a right mess of this route going with the 757, but nothing new there I hear a lot of you say!!
178 STT757 : It must be something with BMI, CO has been flying 757s to Manchester since 1995.
179 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Yeah, it sounds like *all* Washingtonians are snobs. Far from it (even though FL and WN have failed to flourish at IAD). But IAD has a serious histor
180 STT757 : Speaking as someone who lived in the era during the NY Air hub, I can attest that customers in the area love price and service regardless of where it
181 TOMMY767 : I agree that Dulles has essentially been screwed by CO but even DCA is getting the Colgan props from EWR.
182 damian : I'm not sure about ORD. I could see EDI's other daily flight going to IAD, though.
183 kgaiflyer : I flew a CO Q400 from Portland Maine to Newark on the last day of April. Nice plane. It really wasn't so bad -- except for one handcapped passenger i
184 TOMMY767 : That's a crazy coincidence because I'm flying up to PWM for a wedding from the NYC area next week. We picked B6 out of JFK on the 190 because the tim
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