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6 Y.o Girl On U.S. Homeland Security's No Fly List  
User currently offlineOEH68 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 80 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11396 times:

The little girl's family recently discovered that she is on the "no fly" list maintained by U.S. Homeland Security.
She is considered to dangerous to fly.
http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-we...ar-old-no-fly-list,0,1122601.story


OEH68
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11390 times:

Quoting FBI:
rely on the common sense of the security agents

I hope they won't fly through ORD then, cosidering my experience last Saturday there   . Honestly, this is ridiculous that she will stay on that list. She's 6, for heaven's sake.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1079 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11266 times:

Quoting OEH68 (Thread starter):
6 Y.o Girl On U.S. Homeland Security's No Fly List

Darn. 6 years old and a terrorist already   

I wonder is she recruited some suicide bombers in kindergarten.
She had plenty of time is she got in there at the age of two.
My girl is only 9 weeks old and already she's looking for buttons to push.

Trust no one!
Call in Hit-Girl.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 989 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11177 times:

At least people can say the watch list isn't profiling anyone!


If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you!
User currently onlineDAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11077 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Maybe it's a prediction   


Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
User currently offlineAAExecPlat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 633 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10819 times:

You can tell nobody in this story has a clue how these lists work. It's not like SHE is on the list because of something she did. Her name is on the no-fly list because a person with the same name has been identified as a (potential) terrorist. Once the list is established, the government has some algorithms that matches names of fliers with the names on its list. If there is a match, then you've got a problem. Of course, there will always be false-positives, and of course, the government will not remove the name from the list as the real terrorist/suspect is still out there. That's all there is to it.

User currently offlinegr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10789 times:

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 5):
ou can tell nobody in this story has a clue how these lists work. It's not like SHE is on the list because of something she did. Her name is on the no-fly list because a person with the same name has been identified as a (potential) terrorist. Once the list is established, the government has some algorithms that matches names of fliers with the names on its list. If there is a match, then you've got a problem. Of course, there will always be false-positives, and of course, the government will not remove the name from the list as the real terrorist/suspect is still out there. That's all there is to it.

you're right of course....but once the person at the airport (TSA or whoever) realises that the passenger is 6 years old, will they allow the person to fly or not...or will they blindly refuse to allow the person to fly because their list says so? That's the more important issue....hope you can enlighten us on this.....


User currently offlinejamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10721 times:

Well, according to the article, she was still allowed to fly. It simply takes longer to check in.

User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5080 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10644 times:

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 5):
Her name is on the no-fly list because a person with the same name has been identified as a (potential) terrorist.

It's not that simple anymore. Now there is cross-checking by birth date, which should have prevented the false positive. I think this is more likely to be a simple bureaucratic screwup than a false positive.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10611 times:

Bureaucracies at their finest...


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10574 times:

Is this girl on the no fly list, or is the name on the no fly list. Big difference.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8737 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10570 times:

Quoting jamincan (Reply 7):
Well, according to the article, she was still allowed to fly. It simply takes longer to check in.

which, simply is an unacceptable nuisance for the family. Period.

An agency that is not able to admit a blunder and is instead hiding behind secret procedures which will and can never be disclosed to that stupid public is unable to perform the job it was created for.

Obviously, common sense was never the basis for the procedures set up in this agency and without common sense and someone saying to take this exapmle " hey, we got a six year old here on the no-fly list, that must be a mistake - is it OK to get herr off the list?" they will one of these days miss out on the real terrorists because obviously no one is questioning anything in that Monthy Python agency.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5080 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
An agency that is not able to admit a blunder and is instead hiding behind secret procedures which will and can never be disclosed to that stupid public is unable to perform the job it was created for.

If her name is on the list because it matches someone of interest, but they screwed up the birth date, that means they won't actually catch the person of interest.   

I believe the lack of any process for a person to challenge their inclusion on the list to be a blatant, straight-up violation of the Due Process clause of the Fifth Amendment. Unfortunately, we have decided as a people that Constitutional rights can be overridden by invoking fear of terrorism.

[Edited 2010-06-30 07:01:59]


Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2786 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10396 times:

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 5):
Of course, there will always be false-positives, and of course, the government will not remove the name from the list as the real terrorist/suspect is still out there. That's all there is to it.

So the real "terrorist" is now forewarned she's on the list - brilliant!



Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10376 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 1):
Quoting FBI:
rely on the common sense of the security agents

This whole thing is such a joke. So on the one hand, the government has a "NO FLY LIST" which means (and I'm going out a on a limb here) any one on said list cannot fly - no questions asked.

But then, that same government goes and says, "oh, she can fly BUT, we'll rely on the common sense of people who don't get paid enough to even consider bending the rules. And we also refuse to take her off the list even though she's clearly not a terrorist because we just said she can still fly."

Brilliant


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1847 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10207 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Is this girl on the no fly list, or is the name on the no fly list. Big difference.

Big difference in how it came to happen, but less difference in terms of your experience when you arrive at the airport.

I think something similar happened to Sen. Ted Kennedy - maybe somebody with a similar name was active in the IRA or something like that.

We'll see if the birthday matching makes any difference. But I'm sceptical that our authorities will actually know the true birth date of the actual suspected person. Of if the actual suspect would even give his true birth date and middle name.

It just seems to me that some measures are very easy for the criminals to evade, and then place added inconvenience on everybody else.


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10195 times:

This is a joke - TSA has said "No 8-year-old is on a TSA watch list." Or is it true and there are?

In this blog post from this year: http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/01/there-ar...en-on-no-fly-or.html?commentPage=2 it says "There are no children on the No Fly or Selectee lists."* and links to an earlier TSA Myth Busters link where this was stated: http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/8yo_noflylist.shtm . That Myth Buster article has the "No 8-year-old is on a TSA watch list." quote.


But wait - that Myth Buster link is dead and removed from the TSA website - maybe they have reversed their stance and there is some 8 year old on the no fly list? Why remove the article? The blog entry also refers to a watch list article, and that has no mention of kids or young children. Sounds like the blog posting needs to be updated, or removed.



The original TSA MB article can be seen (for now) at http://web.archive.org/web/200802231...ach/mythbusters/8yo_noflylist.shtm .

----

(Note Myth Busters is a section on the TSA website ( http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/index.shtm ) and has no connection to the excellent TV show)

-----

* - The line "There are no children on the No Fly or Selectee lists." is wrong, because everybody is a child of some parents. "Young" should be in that statement - though in the update to the blog post they mention "kids".


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8737 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10163 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
If her name is on the list because it matches someone of interest,

Yes, a 6 year old can figure that out, TSA obviosuly cannot.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, we have decided as a people that Constitutional rights can be overridden by invoking fear of terrorism.

That was a big mistake and honestly, the country which I really like, is a lot less friendly since. Seriously, if the people give the government the right to override the constitution, then you do not have a constitution any longer. The core paragraphs in the German constitution are eternal, which means not even a 100% majority of the parliament can change these paragraphs.

And you know why? Because of what a lesson Germany got between 1933 and 1945.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinerottenray From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 273 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10126 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 13):
Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 5):
Of course, there will always be false-positives, and of course, the government will not remove the name from the list as the real terrorist/suspect is still out there. That's all there is to it.

So the real "terrorist" is now forewarned she's on the list - brilliant!

Exactly. So that name won't be used, at least for a long time, while the "real owner" of the name suffers inconvenience with every flight.

Seems like the list should pop up more information, like estimates of age, height, weight, hair color, et cetera, instead of just the name, which you can assume is most likely an alias to begin with, perhaps stolen through identity theft.

Hell, the TSA should consult with some of the gang enforcement task forces in large cities like LA, New York and Detroit. Even in their tragically underfunded state of being, they're able to keep track of lots of dirtbags who frequently use aliases and stolen names.

Just sayin'


RR


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10078 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
I believe the lack of any process for a person to challenge their inclusion on the list to be a blatant, straight-up violation of the Due Process clause of the Fifth Amendment.

Huh? Isn't "process for a person to challenge their inclusion on the list" exactly what TRIP is for?

www.dhs.gov/trip



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5080 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9782 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
Huh? Isn't "process for a person to challenge their inclusion on the list" exactly what TRIP is for?

TRIP does not remove names from the list; it merely provides a tracking number to help DHS determine that the traveler is someone who DHS has previously determined may be a false positive or someone it has determined to be an unlikely security risk.

TRIP may reduce hassles associated with the list, but it doesn't eliminate them. Worse, it doesn't at all address the common phenomenon of people being included on the list for strictly political reasons.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9765 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
TRIP does not remove names from the list; it merely provides a tracking number to help DHS determine that the traveler is someone who DHS has previously determined may be a false positive or someone it has determined to be an unlikely security risk.

Correct - and when that person gets through the airport with no trouble, how are their due process rights violated? Where is the deprivation of liberty? Government collection and organization of information does not violate due process.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
Worse, it doesn't at all address the common phenomenon of people being included on the list for strictly political reasons.

Can you provide an example of such a person?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5080 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9518 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
when that person gets through the airport with no trouble,

... where "no trouble" = long delays and interrogations, every single time the person travels?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
Can you provide an example of such a person?

The late Princeton professor Walter Murphy, who was outspoken in his criticism of the Bush Administration.

The singer Yusuf Islam (previously Cat Stevens).

Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress (eventually removed at Condoleezza Rice's request).

Numerous anti-Iraq War activists nationwide, for example: http://articles.sfgate.com/2002-09-2...no-fly-list-federal-agencies-names



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9359 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 22):
where "no trouble" = long delays and interrogations, every single time the person travels?

But with a favorable outcome, there is no delay or interrogation. That's where you've lost me.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21413 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9066 times:

There are so many ignorant statements in this thread, and in the news article.

The girl is NOT on the watch list. PERIOD. Her name is on it, but unless and until there is a law passed requiring all citizens to have a unique name, this kind of thing will happen.

The law clearly states that positive matches to children should be IGNORED and the child allowed through. No extra scrutiny at all, no questions. IGNORED. That the staff in question didn't follow the law is the problem, not the law, not the watchlist.

Further for those claiming there is no redress, there certainly is. It's called a redress number, and combined with your birthdate is used to clear you even before you arrive at the airport. The family should get this girl a redress number and life will be simpler.

Sadly, there isn't a better method in place, mostly because it would require national IDs and fingerprinting, something many in the USA don't want (including myself).

Then again, once ObamaCare goes into full effect, there will be a defacto national ID card in the form of a medical card, so at that point, might as well cave in, right?

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 22):
Numerous anti-Iraq War activists

Just because you call yourself an "activist" doesn't mean you are peaceful. Many made threats, and as such earned extra scrutiny due to those threats. Making threats is stupid. Doing it earns you what you asked for, notoriety.

Cat Stevens is a special case. It's NOT political reasons, but it sounds good to claim it is to anti-Israel pro-terrorist sympathizers. His claim that he "had no idea [Hamas] existed" is disingenuous at best, considering how involved he was with the Palestine plight. There is no way he had no idea they existed unless he's a complete moron, and I doubt that. So "I never knowingly" contributed to Hamas also smacks of a lie. It's quite common for supporters of Hamas to claim all their work is charitable. Doesn't make it true, no matter how many "Man of Peace" awards politically motivated organizations want to give you.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Kaiarahi : Although fingerprinting is imposed on every non-U.S. citizen entering the U.S. (except Canadians). I smell hypocrisy.
26 seabosdca : Except for the issue of having to provide a "redress number" every time you travel, you're right, assuming the traveler gets approved; everything wor
27 seabosdca : A few loose cannons made threats. But the entire leadership of some organizations -- most of which did nothing but attend peaceful demonstrations --
28 Post contains links Kaiarahi : Is TRIP available to non-U.S. nationals? And what about overflights, where there is no opportunity to enter a TRIP number: see U.S. Overflights - PAX
29 RTFM : Really? Which law is that? (And I'm genuinely interested, not being provocative...)
30 AADC10 : I suppose that a 6 year old could have been intentionally placed on the No Fly List because they are a relative of a suspected terrorist. The 6 year o
31 Cubsrule : Which "highest numbers?" Has there been any litigation on this since they implemented TRIP? Yes, and given DHS' preference for doing all TRIP busines
32 ua76heavy : Exactly! Must be a very slow news day. My son's name was on a suspect-terrorist list when he was 5 (about 4 years ago). When we checked-in, they look
33 AirNZ : I would respectfully say that there is, most certainly, more to it! By your logic/expert explanation it seems you are saying that as long as people o
34 Cubsrule : Given that Secure Flight is still rolling out, I'm not sure we can assess whether DOB is being used appropriately yet. If this sort of nonsense is st
35 Lufthansa411 : The person will be allowed to fly for two reasons: 1. Any name on the list that matches a pax name on a particular flight is to be ignored if the chi
36 Post contains images 474218 : I think she belongs on the "no fly list". Her father said she may have made terroristic threats toward her little brother.
37 Post contains links oly720man : I wonder of these (older) Alyssa Thomases go through the same if they fly Model http://www.modelmayhem.com/768656 Basketball player http://insider.esp
38 Post contains images fca767 : Let me fly her over for a photo shoot and we'll see But first on my list is that hot russian spy for a film I want to make
39 Post contains images seabosdca : I've seen estimates ranging anywhere from 50,000 to a million, with most of them centering in the low hundreds of thousands. Of course, that's for bo
40 Cubsrule : Those estimates are erroneous, probably by an order of magnitude. The last concrete number I'm aware of is from October, 2008, when there were 16,000
41 Post contains links Lufthansa411 : According ABC News, there was about 6000 people just on the no-fly list in April of this year, with government officials saying that that number woul
42 Cubsrule : That in no way follows. Remember that the problem here is that people who are not on the selectee list are being confused with those who are. With a
43 PIA777 : Just goes to show what a joke Homeland security is. We are all sitting ducks and they will never catch the real terrorists!!! PIA777
44 Post contains images steeler83 : Heh, and the Modern Family rerun of their Hawaii Trip was on just last night when the Hispanic couple's kid was on the "no fly" list. I'm flying in Oc
45 ThirtyEcho : We should just change the name to "Department of Homeland Stupidity". How could such a pack of morons protect us against anything? Just restrict them
46 Numero4 : Political views aside, I highly doubt this will happen in the near to moderately far future. Such a thing is supposed to be happening in my home prov
47 planesmith : If this thread had been published in the Cold War period and it was talking about the Stasi or the KGB exactly the same comments would have been made
48 RTFM : Again, pardon me for seeming to be provocative but if you don't know the law or the regulation, how do you know for certain?
49 ckfred : Here's something for TSA to consider. Most people flying within the U.S. use a driver's license for I.D. If you get stopped by a police officer for a
50 Cubsrule : That's precisely the point of Secure Flight. So, again, why are we criticizing TSA when they are fixing this problem in exactly the way many here hav
51 NASCARAirforce : This is just more and more proof that the Department of Homeland Security, TSA and the Patriot Act are a joke or are ways for the government to furthe
52 ckfred : Yet, if Secure Flight is supposed to prevent people with the same or similar names to persons on the No-Fly List from being subjected to extra scruti
53 ikramerica : I would apply for a redress number soon though, as he's approaching 10, and the "free pass" ends at 12. But with redress number and DOB, shouldn't be
54 Cubsrule : There's a simple answer to that question: Secure Flight hasn't yet been fully implemented. Arguing that Secure Flight doesn't work is similar to argu
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