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DOT Final Decision On HND Routes  
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9508 times:

The U.S. Department of Transportation today awarded four routes to Tokyo’s downtown Haneda Airport to American Airlines at New York, Delta Air Lines at Los Angeles and Detroit, and Hawaiian Airlines at Honolulu, with service to begin when the airport’s fourth runway becomes operational later this year. Today’s action makes final the tentative decision of May 7.


http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot13410.html

Must start by Jan. 29 2011.

DL:
DTW- 744
LAX- 744

HA
HNL-763

AA
JFK-772.


yep.
104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinediscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9425 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Thread starter):
HA
HNL-763

What happened to those shiny, new A330-200's?


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9405 times:

Quoting discoverCSG (Reply 1):

What happened to those shiny, new A330-200's?

Starting small and working up is the plan AFAIK.
ANA and JAL will also start HND-HNL with 763s.



yep.
User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1071 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9062 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Thread starter):
Must start by Jan. 29 2011.

AA has already delayed the start of JFK-HND almost to the deadline - it will begin on 20th January 2011. Here is their PR about it -:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...edy-and-tokyo-haneda-97882739.html



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlinejamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8869 times:

Not awarding UA SFO-HND is totally bogus...


United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

[quote=jamake1,
_
jamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 586 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted Tue Jul 6 2010 15:17:39 your local time (26 minutes 1 sec ago) and read 96 times:

Not awarding UA SFO-HND is totally bogus...


[/quote]


I think the DOT came to the conclusion that UA "received" access by it's partner ANA. I believe the have a JV that covers the TPAC. Someone correct me if wrong.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7569 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8752 times:

Now if only the DOT would hurry up and issued a final ruling on other outstanding issues (like ATI).  


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19565 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 5):

I think the DOT came to the conclusion that UA "received" access by it's partner ANA.

It's true, I suppose. I understand, however, that scheduling restrictions on HND mean that many flights from the U.S. will arrive there in the late evening, which is not a time that anyone wants to be arriving in a city. That's unfortunate.


User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 977 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8544 times:

Didn't DL tentatively get SEA-HND? Guess the DOT changed their minds.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlinebigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8514 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 8):
Didn't DL tentatively get SEA-HND? Guess the DOT changed their minds.

No. DL was never awarded Seattle.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8427 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 8):
Didn't DL tentatively get SEA-HND? Guess the DOT changed their minds.

No, the DOT didn't change anything.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

JL will have daily SFO-HND 77W flights.



yep.
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1098 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8281 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 5):
I think the DOT came to the conclusion that UA "received" access by it's partner ANA. I believe the have a JV that covers the TPAC. Someone correct me if wrong.

Well if that was the case then AA shouldnt have gotten any either since they have access with JAL with their One World alliance.



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8236 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 5):

Isn't ANA staying at NRT? JAL will be moving it's service to HND. So this would be no reason to not give the authority to UA. I agree with JAMAKE! Not that I am a homer, but both SFO/LAX should have non-stops.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8191 times:

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 11):

Well if that was the case then AA shouldnt have gotten any either since they have access with JAL with their One World alliance.

AA got it because they looked at it this way
HA gets a slot because they are new to the TYO market.
DL gets two slots because A) they offer to fly both with 744s and B) will be the only SkyTeam carrier to fly USA-HND.
So now they have one more slot to give.
You can give it to the top market to TYO that doesn't have a slot(NYC) or a high O/D city with a large west coast hub.......they picked NYC.



yep.
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1720 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8176 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 4):
Not awarding UA SFO-HND is totally bogus...

Would be...if UA wasn't tied to the hip with ANA - the new power in Japanese aviation & someone who already has announced HND-SFO.


User currently offlinemattnrsa From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8176 times:

Will additional HND routes be awarded next year, similar to the China route authorities that were granted over the course of a few years?

User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 14):
& someone who already has announced HND-SFO.

ANA wont be doing HND-SFO. JAL will.

ANA is adding
LAX-HND 772
HNL-HND 763

JAL is adding
SFO-HND 77W
HNL-HND 763



yep.
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32734 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8079 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 14):
& someone who already has announced HND-SFO.

ANA wont be doing HND-SFO. JAL will.

ANA is adding
LAX-HND 772
HNL-HND 763

JAL is adding
SFO-HND 77W
HNL-HND 763

Once AA/JL and UA/NH have ATI, I bet there will be movement there. The Japanese carriers are not tied to the slots, and the slots will be as much UA's and AA's as they are NH's and JL's.

It's entirely illogical for JAL to be offering what is nothing more than a point-to-point route from San Francisco and for NH/UA not to link Haneda with its most important trans-Pacific hub. But since the airlines are not allowed to cooperate right now, JAL and ANA can't run any models or considerations taking ATI into account.

This was definitely one of the stupidest and most illogical DOT route decisions I have seen in a long time. Hawaiian should have gotten zilch and Delta should only have received one slot or be forced to use the 747-400 on the route. We've already seen HA downgrade the route, and DL probably won't be far behind.

It should have been DL/DTW, AA/LAX, CO/EWR, UA/SFO. Nothing makes more sense than that.

[Edited 2010-07-06 18:51:58]


a.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):

Once AA/JL and UA/NH have ATI, I bet there will be movement there.

Maybe, but They don't need ATI to know that UA has a hub in SFO and AA has an FC in LAX.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
We've already seen HA downgrade the route,

No they didn't. They asked for 2x HNL-HND both on 767s.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):

It should have been DL/DTW, AA/LAX, CO/EWR, UA/SFO. Nothing makes more sense than that.

Boy that looks really fair.......I mean hell why don't we just give AA JFK and LAX and UA/CO EWR and SFO.  

Now IMHO DL should have gotten what they got and AA should have gotten what they got. UA should have gotten SFO, but no way should Star or One, from the Us side, gotten more slots than Delta. Would not be fair to Delta, nor would it be fair to the PAXs.



yep.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7938 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
It should have been DL/DTW, AA/LAX, CO/EWR, UA/SFO. Nothing makes more sense than that.

If you look only at US carriers, I think that's right. But if you look at alliances, you know that Star will have 2 flights (from NH) and Oneworld will have 2. So if you are DoT, how do you allocate the remaining 3 or 4 (depending on whether you give HA one) among alliances? Giving two to Skyteam and one to the other two (or one each to the other two if you shut HA out) seems the most equitable, doesn't it?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7307 times:

I'm still surprised at all the HA haters out there. You are all too limited in your vision if the only thing you care about is the ability for American businessmen to fly from the US to Japan. If you look at it from an overall viewpoint, HA makes a lot of sense because they're flying Japaneese tourists into the US, where they'll spend more money, and boost the overall economy much more than a busisnessman flying out and spending his money in Japan. There are already three of the four routes doing what you want. But if you limit yourself to one objective, you'll lose sight of the big picture - something we in the aviation industry have to avoid, or risk losing everything. My guess is that the HA route will bring in more $ into the US than all three of the other routes combined.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32734 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7311 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 18):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):

Once AA/JL and UA/NH have ATI, I bet there will be movement there.

Maybe, but They don't need ATI to know that UA has a hub in SFO and AA has an FC in LAX.

But the airlines absolutely need ATI in order to coordinate schedules and figure out how to maximize profit benefits. Codesharing is not ATI. Codesharing is only beneficial on non-overlapping markets.

And, PS, AA has recently started to call LAX a hub.



a.
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5242 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7139 times:

So HA is scheduled is set to begin operating HND on Oct 21st, and both AA and DL are scheduled to start their flights in early 2011. It will be interesting to see what happens to the US-NRT services, especially with regards to DL.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
This was definitely one of the stupidest and most illogical DOT route decisions I have seen in a long time. Hawaiian should have gotten zilch and Delta should only have received one slot or be forced to use the 747-400 on the route. We've already seen HA downgrade the route, and DL probably won't be far behind.

As far as I know HA has not downgraded anything. They were awarded a daily frequency on a 763 and that is what they will be operating. Besides, the DOT shouldn't place arbitrary restrictions upon airlines simply because another airline's fans are unhappy that their particular airline didn't receive the slot they felt that it deserved or because a rival received 2 awards while their carrier of choice received one.


[Edited 2010-07-06 21:46:08]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4263 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7077 times:

As I have stated in earlier threads on this, UA shot themselves in the foot by applying for only SFO. UA still has a pretty sizeable operation in LAX, and had they applied for both SFO and LAX (LAX being the insurance policy), there is no way that DL would have gotten LAX over UA. There isn't a thing that DL brings to LAX that UA can't also bring, plus UA has a ton more connecting options which can potentially serve more passengers. I hate to say it, but UA let this one get away.

That being said, I would have given LAX to AA before DL. I know AA is a 777 as opposed to a 744, but with the connection options that are out there, I would venture to say that AA could probably get more passengers onto a 777, than DL is likely to attract with a 744.

And those questioning HA have no knowledge of the Hawaii-Japan market at all. There is a reason DL also announced HNL-NRT service this week. Hawaii attracts a lot of visitors from Japan. This award makes perfect sense, and actually provides more connections to the mainland than you might imagine, without being in an airplane as long out of Japan.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7064 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):

But the airlines absolutely need ATI in order to coordinate schedules and figure out how to maximize profit benefits. Codesharing is not ATI. Codesharing is only beneficial on non-overlapping markets.

I agree with all of this, but lets face it JL knows it will get ATI with AA, same for UA/NK.
I don't get SFO-HND on JL, ANA doing LAX isn't a shocker, i mean its LA with with a 200+ flight a day hub from UA.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):

And, PS, AA has recently started to call LAX a hub.

Where? Matter of fact where does AA list any of its hubs? I went into its 10K and everything......nothing.

Anyways, since i know they call JFK a hub, and IIRC it has less flight per day than LAX, i'll take your word for it.

(but I'd like to know if/where AA puts this info....... was kinda cool to find out they have till 2013 to let Boeing know about the 787s.)



yep.
25 OA412 : There was a press release put out a few months ago that listed JFK and LAX as hubs.
26 deltal1011man : Where did you get that from? UA really had no chance IMO. DL was going to get two slots, (again IMO) and of the 4 routes DL asked for (SEA/DTW/LAX/HN
27 HNLPointShoot : First, HA applied on the basis they'd operate the flight with a 763, and that's what they'll be doing, never mind that the HND flight will be the fir
28 deltal1011man : Still no need to waste a HND slot on an airline that doesn't know if they can make TYO work. IMHO the DOT should have said they have to start at NRT
29 HNLPointShoot : Why would HA not be certain they can't make HND work? Like I said, Japan is the largest origin of international tourists to Hawaii, and HA's transpac
30 deltal1011man : Because no airline is 100% sure it can make anything work......plus the fact HNL-TYO has a crap load of seats already.
31 HNLPointShoot : HNL-TYO has a huge number of seats because that's where the demand is. Why would HA be less sure than any one else about being able to make HNL-HND w
32 Post contains links OA412 : It's in this article regarding the DTW-HND service. They mention that service will begin in early 2011. http://www.freep.com/article/2010070...onstop
33 HAL : Actually HA has a lot of experience in Japan. They ran a scheduled charter service between Hawaii and Japan in the '80's with the DC-8. The ran a lot
34 CZECH380 : So does this mean that DL is going to fly two daily 747 to Tokyo? They already have one (currently A330), but going back to 747 over the winter. Or ar
35 Post contains images HNLPointShoot : That's news to me. Then again, I suppose it's not completely surprising since there's a bunch of photos in the DB showing HA metal in places like MAN
36 ha763 : I'm still puzzled at this as well. TYO-HNL is still the largest O&D in the U.S.-Japan market. Someone was going to be awarded to this route. It j
37 Flight209 : If HA were the only airline flying HNL-HND nonstop, I would be in total agreement here, and, in fact, I fully supported the DOT's award of HNL-HND to
38 MAH4546 : I'm not really sure why you always insist on turning everything into a fanboy argument. When a DOT award is given based on capacity, whatever airline
39 Jetlanta : So you would have given the award to the airline that could serve fewer potential passengers? That makes no sense at all. Every U.S. airline that wan
40 rwSEA : My prediction is that within one year we will see: - DL downgauge DTW to a 777 and LAX to an A332 - AA will do just fine to JFK - HA will upgauge to 3
41 incitatus : That was Delta's stated first choice but the DoT protected Delta from themselves and awarded the better routes Delta had asked for.
42 dlflynhayn : I love HA but IMHO i believe this might be true! a lot of competion on this route.But if HA makes this route work then watch out for HAWAIIAN!! Yeah
43 incitatus : So would you always award a route to the airline that serves the most potential passengers? Then the airline that has the largest and most dense airc
44 UAL777UK : All I might add on HA being awarded the route....kudos to them, but am I right in thinking that HND is more popular to the business traveller than say
45 HNLPointShoot : Based on my limited knowledge of Tokyo's transport system, NRT is about an hour's train ride from Tokyo Station, via the JR East Narita Express train
46 Post contains images UAL777UK : Whilst I cannot comment on the transport to and from the respective airports, you are right, NRT is way out of town and thats my point. HA IMHO shoul
47 timf : Does anyone know what sort of commitment the airlines have to operating the equipment specified in the applications? It's believed that the 744 equip
48 MAH4546 : Well, AA is the largest airline at LAX and DL is the 5th largest. So its by quite a bit.
49 dlflynhayn : Numbers please??
50 MAH4546 : My bad, 4th largest. Based on the year-ending 2009: 1) AA 8.473M 2) UA 7.619M 3) WN 6.863M 4) DL+NW 6.54M
51 aviationbuff08 : Your talking about a department in the US government here. The smart and logical decisions are far few than the stupid ones that they make daily. Hav
52 LAXintl : These rankings are a bit useless without the express partners. An airlines market presence and passenger boardings very much include express partners
53 MAH4546 : Unfortunately it isn't easy breaking down express partners since airlines like XJET and Skywest are shared upon multiple carriers. Even so, it doesn'
54 panamair : Going a bit OT here, but I was looking at LAWA's Jan-Apr 2010 traffic stats the other day and was a little surprised to see that DL actually carried
55 LAXintl : Actually, you are missing the express partners in this count, so the numbers are not quite right. For example on UA's side, Skywest operates to Canad
56 mayor : I believe they are, are they not? How do you know that they are not bound to the award?
57 Viscount724 : Is that really illegal without ATI? You can't discuss pricing or capacity, but how can simply adjusting schedules to maximize connectivity with a cod
58 Post contains images deltal1011man : Ah thanks. duh no fun just having cake Then JL and ANA are just stupid. It kind of like saying AF needed ATI with Delta to fly into JFK. DL has aroun
59 Jetlanta : Often times the largest aircraft WILL win, especially when four routes are awarded. DL's DTW-HND award was clearly the opposite situation in that it
60 MAH4546 : You brought it up. Not me. I was just showing how you were wrong relating to how close AA and DL are.
61 MAH4546 : No, they aren't. They are a business that needs to run models based on information that is currently available to them. They cannot simply ask AA and
62 Post contains images HNLPointShoot : Forgive my political incorrectness, but I find that quote awfully funny. I suspect it's partly because HA simply hasn't had enough metal to do more f
63 ewrkid : Will NH start EWR-HND for CO since it can't? or are they just going to stick with CO's non-stop EWR-NRT service?
64 OA412 : Actually I don't, but nice try anyway. You're the one falsely claiming that HA downgraded the route and that DL will likely downgrade the route. Your
65 n7371f : I fly DL almost exclusively now and consider myself a good supporter of them...but I agree with the above poster on a DL downgauge. Look, DL's record
66 OA412 : I'm actually not convinced that HND will be the one seeing downgrades. I actually wonder if NRT might be the one seeing the downgrades. With LAX espe
67 MAH4546 : Falsely claiming? I made a mistake, move on. Its not "bitterness." I believe DL is the wrong airline for the route, just like I believe AA is the wro
68 n7371f : Very possible. DL has talked about less reliance on NRT and more overflying. Upon the merger there was immediate internal debate about the 747-400 fl
69 SR117 : For the record, the only source that mentions a 2011 start for the route is -not- DL. It could well be a mistake by the person writing the note based
70 Jetlanta : I posted actual seats! My point was that the difference is not that great. And it isn't. None of these carriers operates a real hub at LAX and everyo
71 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : Gee...I wonder who.
72 LAXintl : Overall I think the opportunity for the public to access Haneda is a great thing. However personally I don't see too much success in many of the indiv
73 n7371f : I didn't pull it from a.net. Where's the thread? I was referring to a conversation I had with a former friend in NW's building A during the block par
74 Cubsrule : Does anyone disagree about that? Putting aside HNL (which I don't think HA deserved, but that's another story), the three mainland awards most in the
75 Jetlanta : But WHY AA for LAX? Because they have a bit more existing capacity that won't provide feed of any substance for HND? Delta is offering an aircraft th
76 Cubsrule : I see serious overcapacity in the US-Japan market in the short to medium term. There aren't eight planeloads worth of people a day waiting to go to J
77 carpethead : I totally concurr. With the exception of the HA flight, the timing on all the mainland flights on at least one direction stink for the US carriers. T
78 HAL : I think mainly because our management thought we couldn't compete against a barrage of JL 747's coming from NRT daily. But when the HND option came a
79 ha763 : Because the slots that are available would mean a middle of the night arrival and departure in HNL. HA did have a route authority to fly Hawaii-NRT,
80 SCL767 : Have the pilots been practicing go-around procedures enroute to KOA from HNL?
81 rwSEA : But we will see how long DL actually operates that aircraft. I don't think these HND flights will be all that successful. There's two things against
82 Cubsrule : To which flight are you referring? My recollection (and it's admittedly fuzzy) is that the slot times for OGGNRT were pretty good.
83 HNLPointShoot : Possibly, but the other problem is that OGG's runway is only 7,000 feet long. HA's plans were based the runway being extended to allow economical fli
84 Flight209 : As far as I can tell, HA needs to do three crucial things in order to have any real chance to attract Hawai'i-bound HND pax: 1. Build or strengthen r
85 ha763 : The route authority was for Hawaii-Japan. The updated U.S.-Japan agreement made Hawaii a single destination, an airline could fly from any airport in
86 ha763 : Done. HA has had a sales rep in Japan for many years. Many Japanese tour companies also have operations here in Hawaii. The international tour group
87 HAL : Have you ever actually flown coach on one of JL's 747's? It's a sardine can, and the HA seating & inflight entertainment is much better already,
88 Post contains links SR117 : Delta has posted the schedules for their HND flights. LAX-HND has switched to a redeye ; ) It's gonna be excellent for connections everywhere in Japan
89 DFWEagle : That's excellent news, and I think it will drastically improve the route's potential for success.
90 LAXintl : I agree the redeye schedule is much better and copies what ANA is doing. But on who are these DL pax connect to? Through fares on both JL or NH will
91 MaverickM11 : Something has to give, and DL seems like the most likely candidate. Their lack of partner and the fact that the past ATLNRT increase didn't generate
92 Viscount724 : JL has announced that all their 747s will be retired by the end of the current fiscal year (March 31, 2011).
93 mogandoCI : here's the stupid thing - how long are carriers forced to use their stated equipment of choice before they're allowed to downgauge due to market condi
94 OA412 : I think they can do change equipment even before they start service. As I understand it, there is no law that states that they must use the aircraft
95 Pohakuloa : And the Japan-HNL routes will be served with the 763 after the 744's leave service. This puts HA on an identical playing field with JL (or greater on
96 deltal1011man : So your telling me you really think thay fares to HND would be cheaper with Star and OneWorld getting all the slots? The DOT is, for once, doing its
97 Cubsrule : I don't think it makes a lick of difference. Two carriers will compete on price about as much as three. It's not like the third carrier is WN or FR.
98 deltal1011man : having 4 carriers in the market should make prices lower. Also even more so with Delta dumping a crap ton of seats into HND. Not sure why it would ha
99 Cubsrule : No doubt. But can you point me to a market with two or more legacies where the addition of another legacy has a large effect on prices?
100 Post contains images deltal1011man : No I can't, not because it hasn't happened but because i don't study fares on every single market. Anyways, Delta is adding a 7th LAX-LAS flight with
101 bobnwa : Just off the top of my head, I would guss that DTW will offer a competive or better schedule from BOS,BDL,PVD,RST,SYR,BUF,CLE,PHL,PIT,TPA,MCO,JAX, as
102 rwSEA : To HND perhaps, but for the overall Tokyo market there are still plenty of other good options. The question then becomes whether they would prefer to
103 LAXintl : Good question. I believe JL and NH will properly capitalize on their existing Haneda hubs and nicely manage to wrap new international services into t
104 flyawa : DL 636 Tokyo-Haneda departs 1:00AM Los Angeles arrives 6:40PM** Eff: Jan. 31, 2011 Equip: Boeing 747-400 **arrives previous day Cool sked out of HND a
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On Which Routes Does AF Use Their A319LR's? posted Wed Sep 23 2009 18:57:17 by Usair320