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Sata Internacionale - More USA Service Than TAP?  
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3469 times:

After seeing a SATA A310 in their striking new livery (see link below) I was doing a little research and discovered something surprising. SATA serves more USA destinations (two) with their own metal than much larger and better known TAP - Air Portugal. I found that strange. Is the market for USA-Azores travel larger than USA-Portugal (mainland) service?

http://www.youtube.com/user/tbird209#p/u/2/LRU5O8b2cW4

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
Is the market for USA-Azores travel larger than USA-Portugal (mainland) service?

You have Lajes on the Azores; a large American Air Force base. I should think this is mostly responsible for the US flights.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinerwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

The market is not large, but is heavily geared towards VFR passengers. BOS and OAK both have concentrated Azores / Portuguese communities.

TAP on the other hand is more focused on their hub and spoke network and their LIS local market.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3171 times:
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Quoting rwSEA (Reply 2):
BOS and OAK both have concentrated Azores / Portuguese communities.



Actually, there is also a third airline serving the 400,000 or so Portuguese-speaking expats from the Cape Verde archipelago in the south Atlantic who now live in southeastern MA, RI, northern NJ, and suburban DC.



Cape Verde Airlines departing BOS -- Winthrop Mass. in the background.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

Actually I'm surprised that SATA is only serving BOS and OAK this year, if true. Historically in N.America they've served PVD and EWR as well as YYZ. SATA service in the US however is very seasonal and operated much like a regular charter operation in which most tickets are sold through local travel agencies that cater to the Portuguese comunities. Very little if any of the traffic has anything to do with the Air Force base at Lajes. Also worth noting is that TAP and SATA have a FF reciprocity agreement.

User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
You have Lajes on the Azores; a large American Air Force base. I should think this is mostly responsible for the US flights.

As Airbazar pointed out, it is not related to the AF Base.

I will try and post (my first) trip report here when I fly them at the end of August. BOS-PDL-LIS-BOS, Aug 26 - Sep 6.

Does anyone know the re-paint schedule for the rest of the A310 fleet? I am hoping to score one on one of the flights (TKM I think is the only one painted up now)

Quoting airbazar (Reply 4):
Historically in N.America they've served PVD and EWR as well as YYZ

I do recall them flying to PVD in the past. Didn't know they ever did EWR...
Do you remember when Air Luxor flew the A330 into PVD? What a sight that used to be!



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 5):
I do recall them flying to PVD in the past. Didn't know they ever did EWR...
Do you remember when Air Luxor flew the A330 into PVD? What a sight that used to be!

If SATA doesnt return in the next year or so I imagine a similar charter operation will come in again (and probably force SATA back in the market). I dont think we will be lucky enough for it to be an A330 but a 757 or 767 is certainly feasible.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineDETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Portuguese emigration to the United States was always small when compared to other destinations. It peaked in 1966-1971 when around 10,000 Portuguese emigrated to the U.S. each year. However, over 90% of the Azoreans emigrating chose the United States and beginning in the 1960s Canada as a new home

Portuguese from the mainland only began emigrating in larger numbers to the U.S. in the post-1950 era and even these were overwhelmingly from a dozen or so municipalities in the country (mostly Northern Portugal). I looked at the 1950-1969 emigration numbers and during this period almost 1 million Portuguese people emigrated. Of these, 82,867 chose the United States and 61,775 went to Canada, with 60% being from the Azores. During this period 93% of Azorean emigrants chose North America, whereas only 6% of Portuguese emigrants from the mainland and Madeira chose North America as a destination.

The mainland Portuguese community is centered around Newark, Long Island and Connecticut and Southern Massachusets (Springfield area). The Azoreans live mostly in Southeastern Massachusets (New Bedford, Fall River, Taunton) and Providence as well as in California (the San Joaquin valley). In Canada they're mostly around Toronto and to a lesser extent Montreal and Vancouver. This explains SATA and TAP's choice of destinations.

TAP served BOS, YUL and YYZ up until the 1990s, but these were low yielding destinations since they were not daily flights and most flights stopped in the Azores first. They even tried LAX and SFO in 1989-1990 and these were shortlived. SATA is much better positioned serve the Portuguese community in the U.S. Meanwhile, EWR works for TAP since it's also a Star Alliance hub.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 7):
over 90% of the Azoreans emigrating chose the United States and beginning in the 1960s Canada as a new home

CP Air operated scheduled service about twice a week between YYZ/YUL and the Azores (Santa Maria) from the late 1950s until the early 1970s, mainly to cater to emigrant traffic.


User currently offlineewrkid From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 7):
EWR works for TAP since it's also a Star Alliance hub.

Hasn't EWR always worked for TAP even before it was a * Hub, IIRC they started OPO before CO was in Star Alliance also..


User currently offlineDETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

TAP began serving EWR in 1989 and it has worked because it's a New York area airport and also it also has a lot of VFR traffic to the Portuguese mainland LIS & OPO. The fact that it's a Star Alliance hub is an added benefit because it allows for connecting traffic to destinations not served by TAP. TAP served JFK from 1966 until 2004, they used to split their traffic between the two. There have been no carriers on JFK-LIS since. TWA served JFK-LIS up until 2001, and Delta did up until 1995 with the A310. I wonder if Delta will ever start this route up again now that they have the 757s to do so.

User currently offlineewrkid From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 10):
TAP began serving EWR in 1989 and it has worked because it's a New York area airport and also it also has a lot of VFR traffic to the Portuguese mainland LIS & OPO. The fact that it's a Star Alliance hub is an added benefit because it allows for connecting traffic to destinations not served by TAP.

got it I just thought you mean't the route only works because it is a star hub


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 7):
The mainland Portuguese community is centered around Newark, Long Island and Connecticut and Southern Massachusets (Springfield area). The Azoreans live mostly in Southeastern Massachusets (New Bedford, Fall River, Taunton) and Providence as well as in California (the San Joaquin valley)

In addition to Southern and SE Mass, there is a large population in Cambridge/Somerville, outside Boston. both Azores and mainland; I don't know the breakdown.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 12):
In addition to Southern and SE Mass, there is a large population in Cambridge/Somerville, outside Boston. both Azores and mainland; I don't know the breakdown.

As well as Peabody, Woburn and Lowell  
However the reasons why TP failed here in BOS I'm afraid had more to do with how poorly TP was managed than the market potential. Then in 2000 the new management came in and had to drop a bunch of routes and practically rebuild the airline operations from the ground up. That's when TP started focusing their long-haul ops in Brazil. The market in New England has since changed significantly. The immigrant population is now well established and there has been a new wave in the last 2 decades of well educated professionals, most attracted to the high tech and biotech sectors of the area. It is however a very seasonal market and IB is finding that out the hard way. In addition, Portugal's economic interests in the US are not located in New England so BOS gives TP little additional benefits for premium passengers.
Would a TP flight to LIS be more succesfull these days? I think so. But the bigger questions is is not whether BOS-LIS is good enough but whether BOS-LIS is as good as some other new destination and so far the answer has been no. Just a couple of years ago BOS was in the running with BSB as a new destination. BSB won out and it has been very successful.


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
As well as Peabody, Woburn and Lowell

Dont forget the rest of us out from Milford!  



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

To reflect the VFR demand of the Azorean community in Northern and Central California, SATA only flies Oakland - Terceira once a week on Tuesdays from June 8 through Sept. 28, 2010.

SATA has flown this route every Summer since 2000. The route is strictly for the Portuguese Community. SATA never has to advertise outside of Portuguese newspapers or radio stations if it is that it advertises at all.

Taken from the Portuguese California newspaper


SATA Oakland


User currently offlinepvd757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

The greater PVD area probably has the largest concentration of Azorean-related people on the U.S. east coast. Fall River and New Bedford are in the PVD MSA and then you have Bristol, Portsmouth, and West Warwick, RI as well as Seekonk and Swansea, MA.

As far as Cape Verde, the same could be said. Pawtucket as well as most of the ones listed above have very large populations of Cape Verde residents.

It's too bad PVD can't get these flights to serve these communities.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Quoting pvd757 (Reply 16):
It's too bad PVD can't get these flights to serve these communities.

I don't think it's PVD as much as the airlines don't have the resources to serve 2 airports in such close proximity. I don't know about TACV but SATA has a very limited amount of airplanes. In the past they even leased planes (from North American), to operate these routes. In addition, SATA is in a bad financial situation which probably explains the consolidation and reduced frequencies this year.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2201 times:
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Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
I don't know about TACV but SATA has a very limited amount of airplanes.

TACV has six planes but only two are long range 757s.

And they serve LIS and MUC as well as BOS.


User currently offlineSMPPLNOHoW2FLY From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Makes me laugh as I just had a SATA cart on my SLC-PHX turn...took a picture of it


The beginning is the end is the beginning
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 4):
Actually I'm surprised that SATA is only serving BOS and OAK this year, if true

S4 is still doing LIS YYZ. Thu + Fri direct, Mon, Wed, Sun via PDL. They also have LIS YUL via PDL on Thu.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
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