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DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP  
User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13821 times:

Out of curiosity, I sought to compare two midwestern hubs for Delta. I used the date July, 19 to gather the number of outbound flights and seats but I considered service that was only weekly.

The results:
DESTINATIONS

DTW: 146
MSP: 135

FLIGHTS

DTW: 589
MSP: 509

SEATS

DTW: 50,875
MSP: 47,724
Some general observations:
- Delta has added flights to these hubs. I knew both would be a bit bigger in terms of flights because of their added frequency to many Midwestern markets, but I didn’t know they would have this many flights. Last time I remembered looking, MSP had 420-460 flights. Of course, if CRJ’S are replacing A320’s (as in my home market, Duluth), flights could go up with seats saying close to the same. And with seats, not flights often determining prices, there really could be no more capacity.
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320’s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90’s replacing the Airbus’s but there are still a lot of Airbus’s at MSP.
- Minneapolis seems to have taken the role as a great plains hub in the new Delta (as it was with Northwest), serving lots of small to midsized markets through Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, and parts of Michigan. Detroit serves the east coast strongly, but also Michigan of course.
- Minneapolis, although only having 86% percent of the number of the flights at Detroit, has 94% of the amount of seats that Detroit has. This is probably due to all the A319/A320/DC-9, where Detroit sees a lot more Emb 175/CRJ.
-There are a lot of routes that overfly the other hub or MAY make sense only sending through one hub. For example, a city like Albany could just as easily be connected through Detroit as having the one flight to Minneapolis, while Sioux Falls could just as easily be connected through Minneapolis as oppose to having flights to Detroit also.

Hopefully, this can spark some responses with regard to the data. Also, this could create a conversation about the MSP/DTW hub competition. Of course, one could argue that SLC is very much in this competition to see who plays single fiddle to ATL for Delta hubs.

Feel free to point out mistakes too, but I double checked to avoid any! I counted the Honolulu’s as a daily for each even though it is only 4 weekly at MSP and 3 weekly at DTW.

screenclippings of excel spreasheets - organized by cities with highest number of seats to lowest
DETROIT
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det1.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det2.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det3.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det4.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det5.png

MINNEAPOLIS
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP1.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP2.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP3.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP4.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP5.png

[Edited 2010-07-07 18:35:31]


Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22910 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13801 times:

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
Also, this could create a conversation about the MSP/DTW hub competition.

Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13708 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.

Well, maybe that's not the right word but there is parody in these hubs in that they both have a similar number of flights. But even beyond the parody, I believe there is competition, albeit small and often times discrete. For example, when Delta added DTW-HNL, it could be argued that this was at MSP's expense as presumably more people in the network were heading through Detroit, justifying pulling MSP back to four weekly in order to make Detroit work. If in one week, Delta decided to add 5 more flights from Flint to Minneapolis, it would probably be at Detroit's expense, and perhaps this addition would be with a few flights taken away from Detroit to Flint. I'm not saying they compete on every route, but it's hard to argue aganist the fact that in many markets, one's gain is another's loss. And that, to me, is "competition" even if in the smallest sense.



Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlinejbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13675 times:

Is it just me or under the spread sheets does DTW to IND and MSP to DEN show up wrong? The total seat counts don't seem reflective of the number of flights/equipment?

User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13610 times:

Yes. Can't believe I missed these:

MSP-DEN should have 1303 and DTW-IND should have 809.



Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlineoa412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5240 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13540 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.

   They both served different traffic flows before the merger, and the same is true after the merger. DL has turned DTW into the major Asia hub (which IIRC is what NW intended to do with the 787), while MSP is the more domestic hub with a good amount of international service. I think that both hubs will survive and thrive long term. DTW has an excellent facility and is still a fairly large city despite all of the problems. Additionally, the business base given the automotive industry is still quite strong. MSP also has a strong business base that helps the hub out. In the end, while DL may not have a hub in the largest Midwest market, their hubs at MSP and DTW allow the airline to offer excellent coverage of the Midwest. Also, given the strength of MSP and DTW, you will see the continued winding down of the CVG hub.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13409 times:

***mistakes eliminated but i can't edit so i am reposting my initial post with the correct data***

Out of curiosity, I sought to compare two midwestern hubs for Delta. I used the date July, 19 to gather the number of outbound flights and seats but I considered service that was only weekly.

The results:
DESTINATIONS

DTW: 146
MSP: 135

FLIGHTS

DTW: 589
MSP: 509

SEATS

DTW: 51,562
MSP: 50,215
Some general observations:
- Delta has added flights to these hubs. I knew both would be a bit bigger in terms of flights because of their added frequency to many Midwestern markets, but I didn’t know they would have this many flights. Last time I remembered looking, MSP had 420-460 flights. Of course, if CRJ’S are replacing A320’s (as in my home market, Duluth), flights could go up with seats saying close to the same. And with seats, not flights often determining prices, there really could be no more capacity.
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320’s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90’s replacing the Airbus’s but there are still a lot of Airbus’s at MSP.
- Minneapolis seems to have taken the role as a great plains hub in the new Delta (as it was with Northwest), serving lots of small to midsized markets through Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, and parts of Michigan. Detroit serves the east coast strongly, but also Michigan of course.
- Minneapolis, although only having 86% percent of the number of the flights at Detroit, has 97% of the amount of seats that Detroit has. This is probably due to all the A319/A320/DC-9, where Detroit sees a lot more Emb 175/CRJ.
-There are a lot of routes that overfly the other hub or MAY make sense only sending through one hub. For example, a city like Albany could just as easily be connected through Detroit as having the one flight to Minneapolis, while Sioux Falls could just as easily be connected through Minneapolis as oppose to having flights to Detroit also.

Hopefully, this can spark some responses with regard to the data. Also, this could create a conversation about the MSP/DTW hub competition. Of course, one could argue that SLC is very much in this competition to see who plays single fiddle to ATL for Delta hubs.

Feel free to point out mistakes too, but I double checked to avoid any! I counted the Honolulu’s as a daily for each even though it is only 4 weekly at MSP and 3 weekly at DTW.

screenclippings of excel spreasheets - organized by cities with highest number of seats to lowest
DETROIT
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw1.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw2.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw3.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw4.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw5.png

MINNEAPOLIS
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP1.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP2.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP3.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP4.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP5.png



Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5240 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13346 times:

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 6):

Out of curiousity, where did you pull this info from? It seems like a neat utility.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineDLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13302 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 7):
Out of curiousity, where did you pull this info from? It seems like a neat utility.

hard work. designed a speadsheet, typed in each city served (by looking at the PDF timetable), than used the Delta "View our flight schedules" to find the number of flights and types of planes for each route. Than, typed all that in. Than, I added up the number of seats in each plane X the frequency to get the number of daily seats. Than took screenclippings of the spreadsheets since it looks better than copying the data in. Each hub had five screenclippings. Uploaded those to photobucket than put the img code's in the message. It took about 1-2 hours per hub which was a total waste of time, but I was curious and had some free time this week. So, no special program. I wish there was, where we could quickly determine this data.

[Edited 2010-07-07 20:06:41]


Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
User currently offlinenwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13273 times:

DLHFLYER, thanks for this. This is great stuff!! Without someone taking the time to do it, we would never know!

Also, this will hopefully stop the "which is larger" thread that comes up every couple of months...



Long live the Red Tail! | WMU Flight Science major
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5240 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13230 times:

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 8):

Ah, I thought it was through some website. Excellent work!



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7563 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13026 times:

I don't see DTW-CIU Sault Ste. Marie, MI 2x daily Saab on the list.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320%u2019s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90%u2019s replacing the Airbus%u2019s but there are still a lot of Airbus%u2019s at MSP.

There was some shift of MD88/MD90 equipment to MSP, but what was in SLC was relatively small in comparison to the large Airbus base out of MSP.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
- Minneapolis, although only having 86% percent of the number of the flights at Detroit, has 94% of the amount of seats that Detroit has. This is probably due to all the A319/A320/DC-9, where Detroit sees a lot more Emb 175/CRJ.

MSP sees the most E175 flying, but also sees a lot of A319/A320s. DTW has the most DC-9 flying these days, and a lot of CR9s, plus a lot of additional 50 seat flying this summer.

Too bad some of the routes like:
DTW-SNA
DTW-CHO
DTW-CMI

are being cut later this year.


User currently offlinegaystudpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 453 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13029 times:

DLHFLYER -

This isn't meant to sound harsh, but you kind of sound like an unsophisticated consultant or a first year associate at McKinsey or Booz and Company. ie, "Give me your watch and I'll tell you what time it is."

Specifically, you did a great job collecting a lot of data. You made a good first pass at some very general observations about the data. Then you stopped and asked what everyone thought. Clients don't like giving the consultant the answer.

So, thinking through this further and perhaps some additional analyses may lead to more value add observations and enable a more strategic discussion in the forum that would send the a.net armchair CEOs' heads spinning.

For example,

What did the data tell you about how DL is using the two hubs that may provide insight into their hub/fleet strategy?

How are these hubs different from the other hubs in DL's network?

Does the data point to changes in usage/positioning since the merger and for things to come?

How does DL's hub/network strategy appear to be different from other US airlines?

Does the strategy for DTW and MSP appear to be similar to European peers, eg, LH and MUC/FRA?

What is the role of DTW/MSP in DL's international expansion strategy? How would you recommend capturing additional value from these two airports in DL's international expansion?

Moving forward, how would you advise Anderson to maximize value from the two airports?

How would your above reco impact other hubs in the DL network?

Does DL's hub/network strategy provide a true competitive advantage or is the executive team just trying to do the best they can given current assets?

What impact will MSP/DTW and overall network strategy have on future fleet strategy?

In short, you did the hard work and I want to know what you think. And I'd like to see some additional data that supports you POV.

Great start!



[Edited 2010-07-07 21:47:35]

User currently onlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2862 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 12978 times:

Since when is there a 777 on the DTW-LAX route?!?!??!


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinegaystudpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 453 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 12942 times:

Yes.

See Tue, Jul 20th
DL1619
772LR
Dp DTW 15:15
Ar LAX 17:15

Or did you really want to know "since when"?  


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7563 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 12872 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 13):
Since when is there a 777 on the DTW-LAX route?!?!??!

On one of the flights 4-5 times per week. More or less a repositioning flight as the 777 comes off one of the Asia flights, then goes DTW-LAX, and then flies either LAX-SYD or LAX-ATL.

Started in early June when they launched the new DTW-Asia flights.

There is also a 763 on most days too.


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 12744 times:

MSP DTW together is to DL is ORD is to AA and UA it seems to me. Two midwestren hubs with strong biz. in thier own cities but not as strong as CHI. However the two together complementing each other in perfect harmony is what will make the backbone of DL's route structure. They truly have North to South, East to West covered pretty will with ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC.


Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineFlyBlue777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 12538 times:

I flew on on a DL 777 from DTW-LAX last month. It was great!!
Load factor was about 90%
Great IFE!


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12497 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Taking some time to check what you researched i shall say that you provided to the entire A.net community a great job. Congratulations !



Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):

What do you think about the future potential of each one of the hubs ? Do their future expansion will face the other hub "area of influence" ?



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinehomsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11748 times:

I'm just shocked to see there's more capacity DTW-MSN than there is DTW-MKE.


I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11749 times:

Can't believe there are that many A320/319 left at MSP, since they moved an Airbus base to SLC they have become as common as the CRJ's. Can't go anywhere without stepping on one. 738 flights are far fewer than before and the M90 are only a handful. At least we have gained some more 757's.

[Edited 2010-07-08 06:07:13]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7563 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11652 times:

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 16):
MSP DTW together is to DL is ORD is to AA and UA it seems to me. Two midwestren hubs with strong biz. in thier own cities but not as strong as CHI. However the two together complementing each other in perfect harmony is what will make the backbone of DL's route structure. They truly have North to South, East to West covered pretty will with ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC.

Exactly, DTW & MSP compliment very well, it is not an either/or scenario. Part of the reason is geographic coverage. There are many routes from MSP that just can't be effectively served from DTW with an appropriate aircraft size, have decent economics, and/or also not consume a ton of aircraft time. Same goes for DTW.

Some examples: MSP-SCE, MSP-CAK, MSP-ABE, MSP-BGM, etc. are too long to effectively and comfortably be served with 50 seat RJs. Routes like DTW-BOI, DTW-GEG, DTW-BIS aren't effective either to be flown with anything smaller than Airbus, which is likely too much capacity.

Similar to MEM and the Texas markets that aren't served from ATL.

Just look at the markets from ORD that AA & UA do not serve, yet DL flies from MSP and DTW to give an idea of how the dual hubs serve different traffic flows and markets. It gets even more extreme when looking at MSP alone or DTW alone as ORD is more centrally located.

Plus, the DTW & MSP hubs enabled NW, and now DL to blanket some key markets and offer almost shuttle-like service to the hubs to onward connections. This has allowed them to have a commanding presence in places like IND, CMH, GRR, STL, MSN, OMA, etc.

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 20):
Can't believe there are that many A320/319 left at MSP, since they moved an Airbus base to SLC they have become as common as the CRJ's

Keep in mind there are over 125 A319/A320s and SLC alone doesn't use that many, still leaving plenty to go around. If anything, there seems to be noticably less DTW Airbus flying these days, with more 738's on the longer routes (SEA, LAX, SFO) and MD88s on some of the shorter stuff to the East Coast (LGA, BOS)


User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11539 times:

Fantastic post, DLHFLYER! Great stuff. I was surprised to see the increase in frequencies and seats to the old, traditional "northwest" Northwest cities like BIL, GEG, BZN -- is it just me or does it look a lot higher than it's been in recent summers?

Parenthetically, I very much wish I could play with the Excel files myself; I suspect there's some more interesting info that could be teased out with some quick manipulation.

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 12):

How does DL's hub/network strategy appear to be different from other US airlines?

Maybe this is too first-year-at-Booz for more seasoned experts like you, gaystudpilot, but it seems DL isn't afraid to "overfly" both of its main Midwest hubs (single daily 319 service DTW-YVR and MSP-PVD, for example). I reject out of hand the idea that DL is "just trying to do the best they can given current assets" as not since the days of Independence Air has an airline just flown equipment around between two cities because they couldn't think of something better to do. O&D on these and similar routes must warrant it, together with such connections as may be provided from cities unique to the respective hubs (though I have a hard time imagining all that many passengers flying MYR-YVR or FCA-PVD). That said, the models of air commerce in vogue today would incline one to believe that additional frequencies on smaller equipment would improve yields for business travelers who prefer a choice of flight times.

While MSP and DTW are, of course, hubs for DL -- with all the magic that concept offers for the traveler and the bottom line -- it strikes me that it's worth pointing out that they are both surprisingly important O&D markets in their own right. Even without connections, quite a bit of these flights would most likely remain profitable -- one thinks of the frequent service from both MSP and DTW to the likes of LGA, DCA, LAX, PHL, SEA, and so forth. Further, DL appears to have been successful so far in defending these (presumably) high-yield routes; but this defensive process is by necessity ongoing. Business travelers on, let us say, DCA-MSP (a great personal favorite) have their choice of connections through ORD on AA and UA; PHL on US; and CLE and EWR on CO. Thus, Delta must prove itself to be the first-choice carrier on such routes with excellent timetables as well as competitive hard and soft product.

Prior to the merger, I had sometimes thought that NW would benefit from moving Asia flying from DTW to MSP -- East Coast connections are really just as good through MSP as DTW; connections from the Midwest (MKE, CHI, MCI, STL, etc.) are arguably better through MSP; and with the general weakness of Michigan's economy and the relative robustness of Minnesota's, one might think profits would be higher ex-MSP. Still, perhaps corporate contracts with Detroit-based firms made KIX, NGO, and the second NRT flight sufficiently lucrative (and it's hard to argue with the superiority of the DTW terminal facilities -- not that MSP is bad; DTW is just better).

Finally, I suspect that since in many ways DTW and MSP "mirror" each other, DL uses them to enhance operational flexibility (both in the event of major disruptions, such as bad weather, and for individual stranded passengers -- "Hey, Mr Skyteam Elite, you missed your PHL-DTW-SFO flight by three minutes? No problem, we've got a flight via MSP in half an hour").


User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11427 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Northwest cities like BIL, GEG, BZN -- is it just me or does it look a lot higher than it's been in recent summers?

While much better than last summer, BIL is still not at its peak. In the summer of 2008, NW ran 2x A320, 1x A319 and 1x CRJ to BIL. Would love it if they'd go back to year-round mainline to BIL.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11115 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 23):
While much better than last summer, BIL is still not at its peak.

Thanks for the info, floridaflyboy. Hadn't realized that in 2008 BIL had that much service.

That said, I suppose we could agree that BIL had its peak in the 1980s... the August 1982 Northwest Orient system timetable shows the following daily service departing BIL (hat tip to departedflights.com):

BIS 2x 727
BZN 3x 727
ORD 1x 727
FAR 1x 727
GTF 1x D10; 2x 727
HLN 1x 727
MSP 1x D10; 1x 727

Not too shabby.


25 Buddys747 : MDT-DTW is all CRJ. However, there is a DC9-4 in the schedule from 7/15-7/27. Kind of odd.
26 Meteorologist : I've been in GEG for 4 years now, and capacity this summer on MSP-GEG is more than I've ever seen. 3x M90, 1 A320 is definitely more than than past c
27 PSU.DTW.SCE : Remember that they also have SLC to serve many of these markets out west like GEG, BIL,BZM
28 RobertS975 : I am amazed to learn that NW flew DC10s into stations like BIL and GTF!
29 Meteorologist : This is true. I guess GEG-SLC has seen quite the upgauge for the fall relative to normal. GEG-SLC goes from 4x CR9, 1x M90, 1x 738, 1x CRJ this summe
30 ckfred : What I find interesting is that it wasn't that many years ago that NW's service from both hubs to ORD and MDW was all mainline and even included 757s.
31 floridaflyboy : Very impressive. I I would love to have seen NW's ops in Billings back in those days. They also flew the DC-10 from BIL-ORD for a period.
32 DLHFLYER : I'm guessing it is. It must be a tough route with DL, UA, AA, and WN. Southwest must be taking most of the o&d with the legacies taking more conn
33 PGNCS : You mean parity, I presume? I agree. There is a lot of data, but raw data needs interpretation. What do you make of all this, DLHFLYER? Great questio
34 DLHFLYER : Well, I stated my general observations in the first post. Really, I decided to post this so people SMARTER than me could express their thoughts. I gu
35 AADC10 : Unless there is a compelling reason to switch aircraft types they will move slowly to other hubs because that is where the mechanics certified for th
36 PSU.DTW.SCE : For business travel, corporate contracts and nonstops usually trump most else in competitive markets. Pretty easy for DL to command a majority of tra
37 VC10DC10 : Sad but true. HKG and OSA/KIX, right? Have to agree with you, despite my Twin-Cities-booster spirit.
38 gaystudpilot : To be clear, it's good work. I'm sure you're smarter than an unsophisticated consultant or first year associate at McKinsey or Booz and Company.[Edit
39 Post contains images peanuts : Great work! It seems tedious, the work you did, but it gives some of us a realistic picture of what is going on in the Midwest. (I give you credit, o
40 ericaasen : Well, MDW is not an easy airport to get to or from. ORD is a lot easier to get downtown. You can either hop on the blue line or the Kennedy and 30 mi
41 nwaesc : I miss the "old" MDW. Sure, it was a sh*thole, but it had soul...
42 Post contains images SurfandSnow : UA and AA had obvious reasons for leaving MDW, since they would not want to cannibalize traffic away from their ORD hubs. ORD has always been the mor
43 Post contains images Mexicana757 : THanks for providing us with this kind of information. The blue line is far worse than the orange line. Blue line is much dirtier and noisy than the
44 Post contains images peanuts : Let's put it this way: if it wasn't for the car industry, no DTW hub. DTW would be a STL or MCI at best. So, in spite of Michigan's miserable, one si
45 burnsie28 : MSP is still by far the largest Airbus base. DTW is the real loser of the Airbus. earlier this summer, it continues on to Sydney. About 5 years ago N
46 VC10DC10 : I wish I could find a timetable showing this. I used to attend school in the west and flew GEG-MSP regularly; seemed like the schedule was always 2x
47 PSU.DTW.SCE : I have the Summer 2005 PDF file saved on this computer: Not exactly 3 757's per day, but capacity-wise very similar in summer 2005: Effective June 9th
48 nwaesc : It was for the most part. In the summer it ramped up to like more like what the other posters have noted.
49 bjorn14 : I agree it was very easy to get around too. What was the name of the restaurant that was in the old terminal? Kelly's Pub?
50 nwafan20 : Not quite. DTW, regardless of the automotive industry, is still a sizable area. The city itself is in ruins, but the suburbs are what count. That is
51 dldtw1962 : I for one would like to see more intrenational flights out of DTW. Does anyone see DL starting DTW- MUC or DTW-DUB, DTW-TLV? I would like to see them
52 nwaesc : I honestly don't remember... I did spend a LOT of time at (and stumbling out of) Mr. C's on 63rd, though. MUC maybe. No way for DUB or TLV. JMHO...
53 DocLightning : Sorry, stud, but I think he just told you. Dude, I grew up there and when I was last back home (in the 'burbs) they're kinda in ruins, too. But the t
54 nwafan20 : What suburb? Out here things are looking great.
55 Post contains images bjorn14 : Good work kid. You might go far in this industry. Maybe your next project could be CVG vs. MEM
56 Post contains images CIDflyer : absolutely, it is one of the best, if not THE best I have been in (my other favorite is DFW's Terminal D, reminds me alot of DTW) This is true, I hav
57 flydreamliner : It is true - when the auto industry was riding high, there was definitely prosperity in SE Michigan. People say "not everything in Detroit is the aut
58 JetBlueGuy2006 : It is quite nice. It is designed a lot like the DL/SkyTeam terminal, except the jet out down by gate 30, 31 ext (AA). The one drawback is there isn't
59 dldtw1962 : Yes, Detroit City is falling by the way side right now. But, I refuse to think that this city will die all together. We have started in a big way of c
60 bjorn14 : Whatever happened to Conyer's wife? Is she in jail yet?
61 gaystudpilot : Not at all doc... I think he did a great job... I just wanted a little more of his "take on the data."
62 ckfred : The one problem with MDW is that it has only 1 security checkpoint, and I don't think the City has done anything to add additional walkways over Cice
63 Cubsrule : I don't know how long it's been since you've used MDW, but they have drastically increased the number of lanes (by expanding it north). I can't remem
64 Meteorologist : Wow, that was right before I moved out to GEG. They definitely didn't run a schedule that heavy from 06 onward. It was usually always some combo of 2
65 Cubsrule : ...not to mention the fact that many cities on the east coast, even some relatively large ones like BDL or ORF, have little or no service to SLC or D
66 PSU.DTW.SCE : Dude, I live here. Some of the inner-ring, more blue-collar suburbs are facing the same issues as Detroit with crime and foreclosures, but not every
67 Meteorologist : Not to nit-pick, but this is no longer true. Nevada leads the pack now...followed by Michigan and California...as of June per CNBC and the Dept of La
68 SNCntry32 : Dude, I lived in Canton for three years. Yep, Wayne County, and it was great...
69 hjulicher : I'd never fly out of FNT and I live in Bloomfield Hills. Despite living near I-75 it takes much longer to drive to Flint, not too mention the distanc
70 SESGDL : MSP has plenty of room for growth; not including the MSP2020 plan that will add more than 30 additional gates. DL has nearly as many gates at MSP as
71 Post contains images DLHFLYER : Does MSP still have the high yields that everyone used to talk about? I know fares have dropped a lot due to Southwest; articles (http://twincities.b
72 hjulicher : I take it you didn't really undestand the meaning of my post. I didn't say MSP was weak, or a bad frequent flier base. Those are all valid arguments,
73 DocLightning : Well, I can tell you this. Metro Detroit in 1980 is very different from Metro Detroit in 2010. It's still bad in the suburbs compared to before. Even
74 deltal1011man : If MSP is like ATL then you don't want 1,000 flights there. Delta needs more gate in Atlanta......ALOT more gates. SGC will really help Delta out, an
75 VictorKilo : Two predictions about DTW from a Detroiter who works in the auto industry: The auto industry is smaller than it was ten years ago, but it is much more
76 PSU.DTW.SCE : FNT only really becomes a viable option for those north of M-59. And, as hjulucher says, it all depends on where one wants to go. If going to one of
77 deltal1011man : ATL didn't have zillions of 50 seaters then. They had 70/76 seaters. The biggest reason we have lost flights is because of the 757 becoming a 727 rep
78 DocLightning : Do you know the numbers? I heard DTW was only 30% O&D.
79 Post contains links PSU.DTW.SCE : What year are you talking about? The 727s have been gone since 2003. The E170s didn't show up until 2005 and they were in limited numbers. The CRJ-90
80 dtw9 : For the first 6 months of 2009 Daily O&D / total 6 months / total O&D / O&D % / # of Airports Detroit 33,128 / 15,715,346 / 5,996,168 / 38
81 deltal1011man : Thanks for pointing that out.........you missed what i meant. 1) Delta had 120+ 727s. only 71 738s. 2) Delta replaced a good chunk of the 727 route o
82 PSU.DTW.SCE : Again mostly single-class RJs. There were so few E75s and CR9s back during the peak days of ATL. Again, not enough to get them to 1200, but more or l
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