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UA To Apply For ORD-GIG?  
User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6682 times:

Not sure on the validity of this, but my friends in Chicago say UA will apply for 3x weekly ORD-GIG service on 763 aircraft (764 seasonal after CO merger).

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6667 times:

I am highly doubtful as UA does not fully use all of the Brazil frequencies it already has.

User currently offlinediscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

This is suspect news, coming, as it does, just as AA applies for 3xW DFW-GIG.

User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

I didn't think this was for real, but an attempt to pull slots from AA/DL (not that UA uses there slots as is).

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3652 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6607 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
Not sure on the validity of this, but my friends in Chicago say UA will apply for 3x weekly ORD-GIG service on 763

Only if they immediately load IAD-GIG beyond January, so that there is no argument for AA or DL to say they are not using their frequencies. If that comes true, it will be more than clear that CO is already calling the shots on UA's route planning, since that application would be a direct response to AA's application for DFW-GIG. It would mean that CO is trying to defend IAH-GIG.

[Edited 2010-07-09 17:33:39]

[Edited 2010-07-09 18:06:52]

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5225 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6524 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 4):
If that comes true, it will be more than clear that CO is already pulling the shots on UA's route planning, since that application would be a direct response to AA's application for DFW-GIG. It would mean that CO is trying to defend IAH-GIG.

Which they cannot be doing as they are not yet a merged carrier.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

I agree that CO is starting to call the shots at UA. I would expect ORD to get more announcemnts that IAH and EWR have enjoyed lateley. From what I've heard from my friends in Chi-town, ORD-ICN,KIX,TPE,SIN,2xHKG),AKL(on NZ), BOM, DXB, DOH (on QR) MAN, BHX, and "other European destinations" will be added. This is to grow ORD as a major international hub due to the large feed and location and to take advantage of AA's shrinking European presence.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6506 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
Not sure on the validity of this, but my friends in Chicago say UA will apply for 3x weekly ORD-GIG service on 763 aircraft (764 seasonal after CO merger).

Wow, that's interesting. It seems that all carriers now are trying to get part of the market that 3 years ago they neglect the existence ! If UA talks to CO the best use of these valuable frequencies would be to start a second IAH-GIG with 3 weekly flights. That's the best USA-Rio market, the highest yields available, a lot of growing demand that week after week is getting more and more business.
ORD-GIG would be great to protect not IAH but in fact to protect ORD against DL new flight from DTW, allowing ORD-GRU to have more room.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 1):
I am highly doubtful as UA does not fully use all of the Brazil frequencies it already has.

They will, in the end of the year. But for sure they are looking to defend against a DL request for the unused frequencies. And they are too valuable to be lost.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5225 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 6):
I agree that CO is starting to call the shots at UA.

Again, until the merger is approved, they cannot do this.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22313 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6450 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
Again, until the merger is approved, they cannot do this.

This may be a cynical question, but who is going to 1) catch them or 2) care?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6450 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
Again, until the merger is approved, they cannot do this.

...Officially....


User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6444 times:

I agree that "CO can not call the shots" until the merger is approved... but I've been through 3 mergers and 1 Chapter 11, and this is just an inconvience. This will get done and UA/CO has some "friends" in Windy City/DC, which doesn't hurt (see Tilton on trade views): http://www.eturbonews.com/17136/unit...eo-named-president-obamas-export-c

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32192 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6374 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 6):
This is to grow ORD as a major international hub due to the large feed and location and to take advantage of AA's shrinking European presence.

AA's European presence isn't shrinking. While it is absolutely true that two routes are being suspended this winter (FCO is always summer-only), everything will be back to normal next spring, and there are few routes being talked about - BHX included - thanks to ATI.

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 11):
This will get done and UA/CO has some "friends" in Windy City/DC, which doesn't hurt (see Tilton on trade views):

UA will absolutely not be approved for this because it already has unused frequencies for which to start ORD-GIG. It will have to demonstrate a good faith intention to permanently operate those seven frequencies consistently elsewhere in order to have a chance.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6350 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
UA will absolutely not be approved for this because it already has unused frequencies for which to start ORD-GIG. It will have to demonstrate a good faith intention to permanently operate those seven frequencies consistently elsewhere in order to have a chance

I would even not think that they can expect a little chance of success. If they want to begin ORD-GIG they would do that with their unrestricted unused frequencies for sure.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3652 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6350 times:

There would be just so many ways to justify this move.
First, UA decided to finally go for the market, since all other players are heavily investing in it.
Second, the market has a huge potential for the next few years, but there is no perspective that new frequencies will be created, thus entering the market now is essential.
Third, the future potential of the combined UA-CO in Brazil would make the link viable, therefore acting now in order to guarantee the rights was needed.
etc.


User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6313 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
UA will absolutely not be approved for this because it already has unused frequencies for which to start ORD-GIG. It will have to demonstrate a good faith intention to permanently operate those seven frequencies consistently elsewhere in order to have a chance

Welcome to the world of Chicago politics! Chicago is currently the center of the world (at least until November). And what Chicago wants, Chicago will get! UA will get CO and many other things. AA should go balls out to get part of the prize while it lasts!


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32192 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6270 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 15):
Welcome to the world of Chicago politics! Chicago is currently the center of the world (at least until November). And what Chicago wants, Chicago will get! UA will get CO and many other things. AA should go balls out to get part of the prize while it lasts!

As if AA isn't well connected in politics? Please.

This isn't even a politics issue, though. If AA and UA were competing for DFW-GIG and ORD-GIG, respectively, and they had both had no other unused frequencies, then I absolutely would agree that UA would get ORD-GIG because it is a larger local market and because UA has fewer Brazil frequencies.

But UA has seven unused Brazil frequencies that it can use to fly ORD-GIG, so it has no basis to apply.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6080 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 15):
Welcome to the world of Chicago politics! Chicago is currently the center of the world (at least until November). And what Chicago wants, Chicago will get! UA will get CO and many other things. AA should go balls out to get part of the prize while it lasts

That's not true. As Mark explained, how to get what they already have ?
And DOT do not play in favor of the " center of the world ". If UA wants the frequencies, they just need to launch the flight, and they know that.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1049 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5789 times:

If UA launches this ORD-GIG service what will happen to the current IAD-GRU-GIG service? Will the tag-on remain? UA could fly a mix service to GIG such as 3x weekly ORD-GIG and 4x weekly IAD-GIG and kill the tag from GRU.


Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7322 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5690 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 15):
Welcome to the world of Chicago politics! Chicago is currently the center of the world (at least until November). And what Chicago wants, Chicago will get! UA will get CO and many other things. AA should go balls out to get part of the prize while it lasts!

First off, UA could start this now if they wanted. But until they are flying more IAD-GIG, it wont happen.

Secondly, ORD-GIG would be a massive failure.

AA is doing fine in Chicago. They will expand more when AA/BA have ATI. RIght now we have to be patient.

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 6):
From what I've heard from my friends in Chi-town, ORD-ICN,KIX,TPE,SIN,2xHKG),AKL(on NZ), BOM, DXB, DOH (on QR) MAN, BHX, and "other European destinations" will be added.

I can tell you right now that half of those routes will not materialize. A few might, but thats about it.

Sounds like they are dreaming.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1070 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5676 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
AA is doing fine in Chicago. They will expand more when AA/BA have ATI.

Speaking of AA/BA ATI, we are (unofficially) expecting a final decision next week, probably on Wednesday.   



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineORDFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 6):
I agree that CO is starting to call the shots at UA. I would expect ORD to get more announcemnts that IAH and EWR have enjoyed lateley. From what I've heard from my friends in Chi-town, ORD-ICN,KIX,TPE,SIN,2xHKG),AKL(on NZ), BOM, DXB, DOH (on QR) MAN, BHX, and "other European destinations" will be added. This is to grow ORD as a major international hub due to the large feed and location and to take advantage of AA's shrinking European presence.

This would be fantastic if true -- I hope you are correct. Some of those destinations are already served -- KIX, SIN (are you referring to increased frequencies?). But would love to see QR and NZ added. Although I have mixed emotions on the impact to AA, as they are a historical player at ORD; would hate to see them pushed to irrelevance from trans-con Euro flights from ORD, though they I doubt their LHR route is in much danger.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5539 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
First off, UA could start this now if they wanted. But until they are flying more IAD-GIG, it wont happen.

Secondly, ORD-GIG would be a massive failure.

Why you believe it will be a failure ? ORD has been the only major market in the United States that do not receive any sort of upgrade to Brazil during the past 10 years. I know is a rumor at this point, but considering UA is a code-share partner of JJ, i can't see why will be a " massive " failure. Rio is not a playground city that depends only from leisure traffic.

Plus, it's a matter to protect their frequencies. Could not be the best and top option for now or for 7 months from now, but protects a valuable asset.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 14):
Second, the market has a huge potential for the next few years, but there is no perspective that new frequencies will be created, thus entering the market now is essential.

Plus to deffend their position. I can see DL in the near future looking to challenge the 7 frequencies UA have.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7322 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5445 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
ORD has been the only major market in the United States that do not receive any sort of upgrade to Brazil during the past 10 years.

Yeah they have. ORD-GRU gets upgraded to a 777 on the regular.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Why you believe it will be a failure ?

Because they struggle so much with IAD-GIG and UA does alot better with IAD-South America. If IAD-GIG were successful, I would have an eaiser time believe ORD-GIG would be plausable. But the fact remains, it isnt. ORD-GRU is successful, every other South American route tried from ORD has failed. Alot of it has to do not with Chicago itself, but its poor geographic locale.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5108 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Laxdude, thanks for the comments.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23):
Because they struggle so much with IAD-GIG and UA does alot better with IAD-South America. If IAD-GIG were successful, I would have an eaiser time believe ORD-GIG would be plausable. But the fact remains, it isnt. ORD-GRU is successful, every other South American route tried from ORD has failed. Alot of it has to do not with Chicago itself, but its poor geographic locale.

I don't want to say that it's not correct because my knowledge is limited to LF. My view is that IAD-GIG and IAD-GRU is too much and both routes become not so profitable as the IAD-GRU-GIG.
ORD in my view can sustain 3x weekly service to GIG because not only Rio can be more a focus for the people of Chicago, but also due to the lack of operations from West Coast and/or Canada to GIG. If we look to other places, the Pacific Coast have links to the West Coast, so it works better than ORD. GRU gots all because has been the sole Brazilian big hub, even EZE have difficulties with ORD, but they have Canada.

The O&D ORD-GIG in 2008 *full year* was about 10,000 passengers. Not bad to sustain a 3x weekly service that offers 30,000 seats/year. If we look to a 70% LF and consider connections from/to GIG, it's not so difficult to imagine a 3x weekly service. This data i extracted from CO arguments when they apply for IAH-GIG last year. I would say a non-stop can also double this demand.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23):
Yeah they have. ORD-GRU gets upgraded to a 777 on the regular

Exactly on summer and wintter, mainly to access places like Rio de Janeiro, Salvador, Florianopolis and Recife. Winter on ORD is severe.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 Post contains links C010T3 : That's not right. UA does struggle with IAD-Brazil beyond one daily flight, because there is little marketing effort for the market. UA tried IAD-GRU
26 LAXdude1023 : Sorry, but I dont agree at all. Marketing is not going to make a route like ORD-GIG work. I remember when AA tried flying ORD-EZE. They marketed the
27 Cubsrule : But with the arguable exception of YVR, the cities on the west coast and in Canada with appreciable demand to GIG are well connected to MIA, ATL, CLT
28 C010T3 : You're talking about advertising. I'm talking about marketing.
29 LipeGIG : It depends on the schedule. I accept to fly many times LGA-ATL-GIG while the best option would be LGA-MIA-GIG so i do expect people from Toronto, to
30 GlobalCabotage : ORD-GIG is part of the strategy to make ORD a connecting hub for Asia to South America. The Delta folks on this forum have bragged about DTW being per
31 Cubsrule : How are TPE or MNL ever going to work? I'd pick a CLT connection over ORD any day of the week. Lipe, maybe this is a dumb question, but when we talk
32 C010T3 : He never said anything of the sort. Quite on the contrary, since he's defending that connecting at GIG is also an alternative. How is it long? Perhap
33 LipeGIG : No question is dumb, Cubsrule. The same way you mention about CLT connection over ORD, there is people that look for an alternative over GRU. In gene
34 LAXdude1023 : SIN: Nonstop, it wont happen HKG: Already there, does well. BJX: Ethinic market, covered by Mexicana ICN: KE and OZ serve it, thats plenty for the ma
35 C010T3 : I think he meant PEK, but couldn't remember the code. BJS is the code for Beijing Metro.[Edited 2010-07-10 21:35:50]
36 LipeGIG : ORD-GIG would mean more business, would mean a new potential destination for leisure and i'm sorry i couldn't convince you about the potential of the
37 WROORD : I thought UA had a service to GIG vith a stopover in GRU as they were not able to fill direct ORD-GIG. Brazilian visa requirements do not help either.
38 C010T3 : Brazilian visa requirements are imposed to every nation that imposes visa requirements on Brazilian citizens as prescribed by law. Since Canada impos
39 Cubsrule : A twelve hour connection is long (especially when most passengers inbound from North America can connect onto the 1210 GRUCNF flight, which is about
40 C010T3 : Did you read the timetable I posted at all?
41 Cubsrule : Yes - and 3384 isn't daily. My *A timetable is acting up, but my recollection from last night is it's 4-5x/week.
42 C010T3 : The timetable is very clear. It's 6x weekly. For the Saturday it does not operate, just take the bus to SDU and fly from there. That's much better th
43 LipeGIG : Could be worst Cubsrule, but will be feasible. That's no guarantee that you will got the first connection GRU-POA and you might need to wait much mor
44 Cubsrule : Sorry, my error - don't know why it angers you so. I told you I didn't have the timetable in front of me. No question, and some will no doubt choose
45 C010T3 : Just like I don't know from where you got that a 12-hour connection, I don't know where you got that from. No, but connecting at either gateway will
46 Cubsrule : At what airports besides GRU is infrastructure likely to be an issue in the short- to medium-term? Right - which is why I made the comment about cann
47 C010T3 : All of them except GIG. Since pricing differences between GIG and GRU in advanced bookings is marginal, every addition at either airport automaticall
48 Cubsrule : Why is Brasil allowing all of these new frequencies to cities other than GRU and GIG, then? Agreed. But if we add a flight to GIG (or GRU, for that m
49 LipeGIG : Yes you're right, but again, it's just an option. They just will have an option. I never said it will be increased, but they will be able to connect
50 Cubsrule : I think we are on the same page here. I just wonder how much 600 or 700 seats a week to GIG will affect prices when load factors aren't all that high
51 C010T3 : Because you can always squeeze one more in, but not with several arrivals or departures at the same time like at GIG and GRU. Moreover, if an interna
52 LipeGIG : No doubt, but part of these seats are just replacing 1 stop services. JFK is replacement of JFK service, DFW will replace DFW that can't access GIG a
53 WROORD : Definately GIG is a good future destination, but not sure all those airlines will fill daily flights. When I went to GIG (DL ATL-GRU-GIG-GRU-ATL) seve
54 MAH4546 : AA is not really adding that much capacity to GIG at all. JFK-GIG replaces JFK-GRU-GIG; and the GRU-GIG tag itself recieved feed from not only JFK-GR
55 Cubsrule : Correct, which supports my point about this hypothetical UA flight not adding that much capacity and therefore not having much effect on prices. Even
56 LipeGIG : You're correct. And to see how it changes, DL tried 2x daily ATL-GRU and replace with 1 ATL-GRU and 1 ATL-GIG both of them now with LF around 80-90%
57 incitatus : ORD-GIG will do worse than IAD-GIG. If UA cannot get substance on IAD, why try a worse option?
58 LipeGIG : There's no doubt IAD-GIG would be a best option. But i believe a potential ORD-GIG would be focusing to block DTW-GRU. In my view, the best for CO/UA
59 C010T3 : Because the merged United will be a new beast.
60 LAXdude1023 : Thats not going to be enough to make ORD-GIG work. They would be better off adding more IAD-GIG or going for EWR-GIG.
61 LipeGIG : On this i agree with you that IAD or EWR have both superior chances over ORD-GIG. However a limited 3x weekly in my view, have a good chance to perfo
62 AF086 : ORD-GIG 3x weekly and IAD-GIG 4x weekly in my view gives UA's customers enough flexibility to both hubs. During the peak season IAD could be upgraded
63 incitatus : At first it seems a good idea to me. But look at airlines that have two hubs. They rarely split a daily service like that. I am going to guess it ten
64 LipeGIG : I have to agree with Incitatus, they will probably focus on one of the hubs only.
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