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AA And Africa?  
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10403 times:

Now that we have DL and UA enetering the African Markets, is there any chance AA would do the same? We all know how conservative AA is when starting new routes to untapped markets, but now with DL and UA going into Africa, will AA follow their lead? I can think of 3 routes that can work for AA in Africa, ACC, JNB, and DKR. If these routes do ever take off, from what AA hub would they operate from?

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3464 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10378 times:

If and when AA enters the African market, it's with almost 100% certainty that the first market will be MIA-JNB. Don't forget that CO also recently announced service to Africa as well. Although the market is growing, I think there's going to be some flooding of the market with so many new entrants, especially since no US carrier has been particularly interested in the Africa market from PA's demise to DL's entrance in 2006. If AA were to serve ACC or DKR as you suggest, I think JFK to both would be a good bet, although they could also try these markets from MIA. Once 787s arrive, I think MIA-JNB will be one of the first routes.

Jeremy


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

I could see service to JNB and possibly CPT out of MIA. Years back, SA flew MIA-CPT and when they ended their codeshare agreement with AA and started one with DL (and moved their flights to ATL), they eventually returned to South Florida three times a week flying CPT-FLL-ATL. South Florida is a major tourist destination for South Africans as well as being the hub of South African business in the US.

http://www1.airliners.net/aviation-f...general_aviation/read.main/484246/


User currently offlinebigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10316 times:

Miami-South Africa will most definitely be their first entry into Africa, when/if it happens. The local market is there in addition to the connecting opportunities. I do think AA won't step foot in Africa though until their 787s are in the fleet.

Can their current 777's operate a triangle MIA-JNB-CPT-MIA? I imagine it would have to be routed this way given JNB's altitude and that CPT is closer to Miami.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24710 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10296 times:

Dakar?

What is the demand or relationship to the US from Dakar? It rather thin.
For both SAA and Delta use DKR as basically a fuel-stop due to geography, not much commercial demand to/from US.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3464 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10271 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Dakar?

DL serves DKR from JFK, and did previously from ATL. DKR serves more as a stopover point than as an O&D destination. New York is really the only place with enough O&D for a nonstop flight.

Jeremy


User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8525 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10266 times:
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While it would be good to see AA expand into Africa I don't see it happening anytime soon , as has already been mentioned by the OP AA are rather "conservative" . If they do ever decide to service Africa I foresee it from the MIA hub , it would make no sense for them to try to go head to head at JFK with DL who are already well established in the continent . But bearing in mind that AA barely even fly to Asia ( 4 cities served , IIRC , in the worlds most populous continent ) , I would expect them to try to consolidate their presence in Asia first before any expansion into a new continent .


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 10251 times:

I agree with the above statement, that IF AA starts any African Service it will be MIA-JNB. I have been calling for this for forever. AA is in the perfect place to launch those flights as well. Though I'm not sure how profitable it would be nonstop. DL is using the -LR on the route because of the hot and high conditions at JNB. AA doesn't have that luxury.

UAL


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 10176 times:

Any chance that they might try DFW-LOS to try and tap into oil traffic? They would be the third carrier flying from US to Lagos, but the yields are good, although it might work just as well for them to funnel traffic through on BA. Maybe if CO starts to eat into those flights when they start it in a couple years, it might change the calculus on those decisions.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 10128 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Any chance that they might try DFW-LOS to try and tap into oil traffic? They would be the third carrier flying from US to Lagos, but the yields are good, although it might work just as well for them to funnel traffic through on BA. Maybe if CO starts to eat into those flights when they start it in a couple years, it might change the calculus on those decisions.

I'm thinking they are a little to close to IAH and Continental and a little too far away from the oil market in the US....seeing as Continental intends to start this route in 2011. DFW has traditionally been AA's most conservative hub when it comes to international expansion into unknown territories. That said, DFW has a pretty diverse flight schedule.

UAL


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 10106 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 7):
DL is using the -LR on the route because of the hot and high conditions at JNB. AA doesn't have that luxury.

Before they put the 772LR on the route, they used 763ERs and 764ERs and had a tech stop at DKR (IIRC, they did use ACC for the tech stop for a time as well.). AA would have to tech stop out of JNB, somewhere like SID, DKR or ACC.


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 10):
AA would have to tech stop out of JNB, somewhere like SID, DKR or ACC.

AA could fly it using a 757 with a tech stop. However, the problem is that DL is able to do both ways nonstop and AA isn't. While that doesn't mean much for the South Floridian market, it does for anyone North and West of Atlanta. MIA-JNB is just over 7000nm and the -ER has about 7775nm of range. Technically the -ER can fly the route both ways nonstop but JNB only has a 14,000 foot runway and sits 5558ft above sea level.

UAL

[Edited 2010-07-11 12:46:52]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 9969 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
Technically the -ER can fly the route both ways nonstop but JNB only has a 14,000 foot runway and sits 5558ft off the ground.

A 77L will be able to out lift the 77E by about 40000 lbs at 7000 NM.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 9944 times:

Thought I read somewhere that AA and it's pilots do not have an agreement in place to fly ultra long-haul flights? Would that then exclude them from operating MIA-CPT nonstop until they come to some arrangement?

User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 hours ago) and read 9498 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 13):
Thought I read somewhere that AA and it's pilots do not have an agreement in place to fly ultra long-haul flights?

Sounds true, after all it was AA pilots who scuttled the DFW-China route because it was about 30 minutes longer than the contract allowed.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 hours ago) and read 9456 times:

I agree with others in that MIA-JNB is the most likely market for AA to enter along with LOS.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
What is the demand or relationship to the US from Dakar? It rather thin.
For both SAA and Delta use DKR as basically a fuel-stop due to geography, not much commercial demand to/from US.

Actually DL no longer uses DKR as a fuel stop. JFK-DKR-JFK is a 4 weekly 757 service. IIRC, if/when NBO begins, DKR will be the stopover point, but as of now DKR has dedicated service from DL. However, I agree that there is likely not much room for another carrier to service US-DKR unless they are using the airport as a stopover point to another African destination.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

Not so fast.

BA has a major stake in this. To what extent will this pending ATI/JV be carried out between BA/AA?
BA needs the USA-Africa traffic. Just handing some of it over to AA without a stake in it won't happen. SkyTeam is very advanced with their Transatlantic JV's. OneWorld is in its infancy, so to speak.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3537 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 14):
Sounds true, after all it was AA pilots who scuttled the DFW-China route because it was about 30 minutes longer than the contract allowed.

That's debatable. Even if the pilots had played ball with mgmt with the application, it's doubtful AA would have beat out UA.

UA had three things going for it with its application.

1. Service from the nation's capital.
2. Service from the east coast.
3. Service with the larger 744 which apparently was one of the reasons UA won the authority.



PHX based
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8248 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 hours ago) and read 9271 times:
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Quoting bigGSFO (Reply 3):
their current 777's operate a triangle MIA-JNB-CPT-MIA? I imagine it would have to be routed this way given JNB's altitude and that CPT is closer to Miami

AA should be able to d triangular Miami to JNB to CPT to MIA. That it doesn't is a choice. Can the 777-200ER do JNB to MIA nonstop, that is not a question I can't answer since the Delta flight to ATL is a 777LR.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
AA could fly it using a 757 with a tech stop. However, the problem is that DL is able to do both ways nonstop and AA isn't. While that doesn't mean much for the South Floridian market, it does for anyone North and West of Atlanta. MIA-JNB is just over 7000nm and the -ER has about 7775nm of range. Technically the -ER can fly the route both ways nonstop but JNB only has a 14,000 foot runway and sits 5558ft above sea level.

How long do you want it to be ? 20,000 feet ? Many airports, at sea level or hot and high don't have 14,000 feet runways, since JNB does is good, I think its actually 16,000 feet; a runway constructed for SAA flights to be able to circumvent the western hump of Africa during teh Apartheid era.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 9124 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
How long do you want it to be ? 20,000 feet ? Many airports, at sea level or hot and high don't have 14,000 feet runways, since JNB does is good, I think its actually 16,000 feet; a runway constructed for SAA flights to be able to circumvent the western hump of Africa during teh Apartheid era.

Longest runway at JNB is 14,495 ft. You're probably thinking of the 16,076 ft. runway at Upington (UTN), about 400 nm west of JNB. That airport was built in the late 1960s primarily for the purpose you describe.


User currently offlinejeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 8544 times:

Maybe since DL and UA are now flying to ACC, you will be able to pay for flights to ACC on expedia. I have no idea why you can't pay for flights to ACC on expedia.


God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24710 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

There is an incredible amount of fraud involved with ticket sales in Africa.

Here is a recent story:

Fraudsters force KLM to ban telephone, online ticket sales to most destinations in Africa
http://www.ghanabusinessnews.com/201...es-to-most-destinations-in-africa/



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (4 years ago) and read 6543 times:

Quoting jeffrey1970 (Reply 20):
Maybe since DL and UA are now flying to ACC, you will be able to pay for flights to ACC on expedia. I have no idea why you can't pay for flights to ACC on expedia.

you can purchase ACC on expedia.co.nz - have been searching for my trip.. Occasionally places like KRT/HAV have government sanctions restricting access to them on those sites.


User currently offlinepfletch1228 From South Africa, joined Aug 2006, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 16):
Not so fast.

BA has a major stake in this. To what extent will this pending ATI/JV be carried out between BA/AA?
BA needs the USA-Africa traffic. Just handing some of it over to AA without a stake in it won't happen. SkyTeam is very advanced with their Transatlantic JV's. OneWorld is in its infancy, so to speak.

  

Particularly to South Africa... BA are very dependant on connecting traffic from the USA to SA and vice-versa. Even though there are direct flights, the majority of passengers still connect between the USA/Canada and SA via Europe.



War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting bigGSFO (Reply 3):
I do think AA won't step foot in Africa though until their 787s are in the fleet.


Has AA's 787 order been finalized? According to Boeing, no?


25 MAH4546 : BA has no stake and no say in this whatsoever. If AA wants to fly to South Africa, it absolutely will fly to South Africa.
26 777STL : No, I believe it's just a LOI at this point.
27 jfk777 : Even though BA has no say if AA does fly to South Africa, I would have to say teh ATI JV would have to plan for that contingency, so BA would get a s
28 peanuts : If you study existing alliances, SkyTeam in particular, one would understand how far reaching of an effect a JV has on the alliance. I'm sure OW is a
29 GlobalCabotage : Someday when AA isn't as conservative and they have relationships with labor, you will see MIA to Africa service and possibly JFK to Africa service (d
30 MAH4546 : The only stake would be to the extent that Africa routes are added to the joint-venture. As the joint-venture is currently limited to flying between
31 deltal1011man : 14 hours IIRC. If its 14.01 it must be given the green light by the APA. ORD-DEL is over (APA gave it the go) but as you said DFW-China was given a n
32 crosswinds21 : What exactly are the benefits to the pilots when they give a no-go on a long flight? I can't see why they would possibly want to turn away jobs.
33 Post contains images PRAirbus : AA and Africa???? NEVER!!!!! AA is too conservative!!!
34 yenne09 : The USA has a lot of interests in Senegal. First of all there is a US Army base in Thies (the second largest city of Senegal). There is also off-shore
35 Post contains images pfletch1228 : AA flying direct to SA would directly impact BA's bottom line. In addition, BA feed a lot of connecting traffic from SA to the USA via AA flights. Th
36 GlobalCabotage : AA could make Africa work, but DL and now UA have beaten them to it. There is still demand for MIA to South Africa (O&D plus connections). Other c
37 crosswinds21 : I don't know how much I buy this. Almost anyone in their right mind would rather fly nonstop from the States to South Africa versus connecting in Lon
38 Post contains images MAH4546 : It is irrelevant. Since Africa is not part of the ATI, BA has no say. If AA sees opportunity, AA will take it. AA and BA are free to negotiate to exp
39 jfk777 : IF AA has a lot to protect in Latin America it would be prudent of them to get a share of profits for any LHR to MEX, GRU, GIG and EZE flights BA cur
40 GlobalCabotage : As mentioned above, MIA - South Africa is much faster than any USA gateway via LHR (or CDG, FRA, AMS, etc.).
41 MAH4546 : MEX-LHR is part of the AA/BA/IB ATI, as are CUN-LGW and MEX-MAD.
42 c5load : A bit off topic, but not worth starting it's own thread, if AA does go into Africa, will US look at it too? The A332 would have the same tech stop in
43 GlobalCabotage : I can't say US would go there, but if they can make CLT-GIG work, why not Africa to CLT? Would connect nicely as ATL and MIA do to the US and parts of
44 FutureUScapt : The only fathomable possibility for US in even the medium-term future would be CAI, and those low odds are probably even lower now that another playe
45 deltal1011man : At this point it would be a nice big go f**k yourself to AA. (why? its contract time.)
46 MAH4546 : Jury is still out on there. Its filling, but at fares so insanely low, no way its making a dime.
47 deltal1011man : Ok I'm going to just a bit OT because i really want to know......Do you, or anyone, have the AVG. fare on this route?
48 MAH4546 : I don't have the average fare, but they are the low-fare leader in the GIG-U.S. market and the flight is essentially just filled with a ton of very l
49 peanuts : Like I've said before: Compared to StarAlliance and SkyTeam, OneWorld is in its infancy. Nothing wrong with that. BA/IB and AA will get to know each
50 OA412 : People on here often compare CLT to ATL and MIA, and the thinking behind it escapes me. Yes all three located in the Southeastern US, but ATL is much
51 MAH4546 : That doesn't change anything. Africa is not currently part of the alliance. AA will do what is in its best interest - whether that means only coopera
52 pfletch1228 : I am not disagreeing with you. I am merely saying that I believe politics between the two airlines will influence what AA do in Africa in general, So
53 MAH4546 : It has to be mutually beneficially to the extent of the relationship. The point of JV is coordinated scheduling of flight banks and profit-sharing/me
54 peanuts : Let's make it simple to understand so we don't have to get into semantics on this topic. By the time AA flies to Africa, a JV agreement will be or wil
55 joost : Very well said. When considering airlines and alliances, it's very important to keep in mind that in the end, management of AA, BA, IB, DL or whateve
56 peanuts : That is the crux of it all, details details. We all know this. But the COMMON goal between alliance members is to prosper and compete against the oth
57 Post contains images joost : No details at all. Discussions about terminal co-location, about buy-on-board v.s. free food, FF-program benefits, those are details. Government appr
58 Post contains images peanuts : As the members of the three major alliances become more entrenched with each other, governments will see the big picture and cooperate more expedious
59 MAH4546 : Show me the AF*/KL* code on Delta's ATL-JNB (hint: it's not there. U.S.-ZA is not part of their ATI). AA and BA cannot discuss African expansion with
60 peanuts : According to this thread it is. You are nitpicking the general spirit and goal of alliances. and: In the very end, it's the same. One agreement leads
61 pfletch1228 : There is already, for all intent and purposes, openskies between USA and South Africa. The rest of Africa is a completely different story... I believ
62 pfletch1228 : Its not there because there is no benefit to it being there. DL operated flights are not allowed to use KLM codeshares on BA in SA as per the codesha
63 MAH4546 : My beef is your continued inability to understand such a basic concept/ It is not the same thing! AA cannot say "Hey, BA, we want to fly to South Afr
64 peanuts : That BA has no stake in AA's expansion plans? Right... And with regards to route planning vs. schedule coordination between alliance partners: the go
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