centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3597 posts, RR: 21 Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2737 times:
There was a recent discussion regarding Taiwanese carriers and Alliances. There have also been a lot of discussions regarding Chinese carriers and Alliances.
Also there are discussion regarding DL and UA's operations to Africa with the question of AA's entrance. That leads to the discussion about Africa. So what about Africa?
Economies are starting to grow and governments are stabilizing. Some airlines are growing and modernizing to support their domestic economies.
South African is in Star
Kenya was recently made a full Skyteam member
Ethiopian is moving toward Star
Oneworld taking their time here as well like they did in Asia?
What about...
Air Algérie
Arik Air
TAAG
Egyptair
Air Madagascar
Royal Air Moroc
Air Mauritius
Air Austral
RwandAir
Air Seychelles
Tunisair
Anyone else?
(I went by geographic Africa. Sometimes Egypt is put in political Middle East but is geographic Africa.)
Some of these airlines have codeshares with European carriers. Others are expanding with new aircraft like the 787 and A350. Some are still getting their ground after instability in their countries.
What could Africa look like in 10 to 20 years in terms of alliances?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
sw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2732 times:
I personally believe this is the next big one to join a big alliance. Nigeria is the largest (population-wise) country in Africa, and Arik is a stable, safe airline. Some alliance will snatch them up soon, and that alliance will be better off because of Arik.
sw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2711 times:
Quoting cadamosto (Reply 3): TAAG: closer to Star, because of ties with TP?
The thing with joining the same alliance as TAAG is that both lose, in my book. TAP makes good money off serving Angola, and TAAG makes good money off of serving Portugal. If they join the same alliance, someone loses...any I would bet money that neither one would let it be themselves.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2588 posts, RR: 31 Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2589 times:
African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules. Even when an African airline is relatively nice (South African, for instance) the alternatives (BA, DL, QF, EK, etc.) are usually considered to be much better. Most of the alliance FFs are going to the obvious destinations anyways - CAI, CPT, JNB, NBO, etc. that are very well served by the European and Asian carriers. There aren't droves of folks asking for flights to Bujumbura or Bangui .
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
AznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3541 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21464 posts, RR: 24 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
Smaller African carriers don't need the costs that go with membership of one of the major alliances. Codeshare agreements where it makes sense are more appropriate.
spud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2297 times:
Quoting sw733 (Reply 2): I personally believe this is the next big one to join a big alliance. Nigeria is the largest (population-wise) country in Africa, and Arik is a stable, safe airline. Some alliance will snatch them up soon, and that alliance will be better off because of Arik.
The quality of Arik's product is supposed to be great and they're building a good reputation. Perhaps with the strong ties to the UK then entry into OW alliance with the support of BA is a potential?
Trouble with africa is the bigger and respected players such as EgyptAir , Ethiopian, Kenyan and South African are already in an alliance. 3 of these are on eastern continental africa. SAA right down on in the south. Leaves west africa without an alliance member or hub for it to operate from. This again makes me think Nigeria and Arik.
The rest of Africa is pretty well served via europe on SN, AF-KL and BA and via the middle east carrier hubs on EK, QR and EY.
MHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1050 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1969 times:
Quoting spud757 (Reply 12): The quality of Arik's product is supposed to be great and they're building a good reputation.
Looking at PPRuNe and reading some other things, this airline doesn't seem to be running as smoothly as we all think. Pilots claim that their paychecks often come many weeks late, that LHR and JFK are performing poorly (as low as 12 pax on their LOS-JFK flight!) , and there are talks about a change of management.
With that said, they do seem to have a great product and are expanding rapidly.... I do think OW might actually be a good fit but they should wait to see how this airline is doing in two years or so.
Quoting cadamosto (Reply 3): TAAG: closer to Star, because of ties with TP? (some time ago there was plenty of speculation about a merger)
I don't see DT joining an alliance anytime soon. Remember, their 743s and 732s are still banned from the EU. Alliances are probably the least of their concerns!
fly707 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 343 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1935 times:
May be because african airlines dont have enough fleet to join an alliance, even Kenya airways or Egypt Air they have a small number of planes.
pfletch1228 From South Africa, joined Aug 2006, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1876 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7): African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules.
The exact same can be said for some carriers in the US, Europe, or the rest of the world for that matter!
Quoting centrair (Thread starter): Oneworld taking their time here as well like they did in Asia?
Oneworld have a good presence in Southern Africa through their BA franchise with Comair.
War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left.
ETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 617 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1852 times:
Quoting spud757 (Reply 12): The quality of Arik's product is supposed to be great and they're building a good reputation.
That is what I hear as well, good for them.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7): African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules.
That gap is fast closing, esp for the larger African carriers (SA, MS, ET, KQ, etc.). Fleet age in particular is very good.
BOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1683 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7): African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules. Even when an African airline is relatively nice (South African, for instance) the alternatives (BA, DL, QF, EK, etc.) are usually considered to be much better.
I've never known SA to be avoided by international travelers or its foreign competitors to be considered "much better." As far as I know it has always been regarded as a quality airline.
sw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1650 times:
Quoting spud757 (Reply 12): eaves west africa without an alliance member or hub for it to operate from
What West/Central Africa has going for it is the connections by European airlines - LOTS of them!
BA = Ghana, Nigeria
VS = Ghana, Nigeria
AF = Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Guinea, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Togo (plus Cameroon, CAR, Chad, DR Congo, Rep of Congo, Eq. Guinea, and Gabon in Central Africa)
IB = Senegal, Nigeria (plus Equatorial Guinea in Central Africa)
TP = Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal
LH = Ghana, Nigeria (plus Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon in Central Africa)
Alitalia = Nigeria, Ghana
KLM = Ghana, Nigeria
Brussels Airlines = Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Liberia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo (plus Cameroon and DR Congo in Central Africa)
Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 17): I've never known SA to be avoided by international travelers
Well, minus that whole boycott of SAA during apartheid...
BOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1633 times:
Quoting sw733 (Reply 18): Well, minus that whole boycott of SAA during apartheid...
Alright, I managed to sound really stupid there! But I meant because of (perceived) service quality, reliability, or any of the other things that are alleged to keep people away from African airlines.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4978 posts, RR: 25 Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1606 times:
Quoting spud757 (Reply 12): Trouble with africa is the bigger and respected players such as EgyptAir , Ethiopian, Kenyan and South African are already in an alliance.
Actually ET is not yet a member of any of the alliances, however, they do appear to be leaning toward Star. If they do join, that will give Skyteam one African alliance partner and Star three.
sw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1572 times:
Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 19): Alright, I managed to sound really stupid there!
I knew what you meant, no worries mate.
Quoting nzrich (Reply 20): Air Namibia is also a very good airline . Would be a good fit for an alliance wanting a airline in Southern Africa .
I wish, but their network is just far too small. They only serve one city in Europe - Frankfurt. That means the leading candidate would be Star, who already has SAA...and SAA provides a much, much, much superior network. In fact, a good chunk of the Germany-Namibia traffic is just connecting on to South Africa anyways.
If Air Namibia had any hope of joining a big alliance other than Star, they would have to start another city, say London...yeah, they served Gatwick until recently, but they would have to start Heathrow, for example to connect with AA/BA/OneWorld. For Skyteam, they would have to start either Paris or Amsterdam most likely, both of which provide limited O&D for Windhoek (Amsterdam would have much more O&D than Paris). In any way, the cities Air Namibia serves in southern Africa from Windhoek (Jo'burg, Cape Town, Luanda) are already served very well by major alliances.
Air Namibia is destined to be a mostly regional carrier...however, that sounds about right for a country of about 2.1 million people. I am still proud that we have a flight to Europe...pretty good for such a small country.
eta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2009 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1519 times:
The bulk of African Airlines really have nothing to offer the alliances- limited schedules and networks. Aside from AT DT ET KQ (sky) MS (star) SA (star) nobody is on the radar. OK run carriers like MK UU are too geographically removed to be much benefit.
It would be easier for a presumably European carrier to start their own subsidiary from scratch in Africa than to overhaul an existing operation like UM.
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1496 times:
Quoting eta unknown (Reply 23): It would be easier for a presumably European carrier to start their own subsidiary from scratch in Africa
As SN are reportedly looking at doing in the DRC with their "Korongo" project .
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 eta unknown: That's right- hopefully it'll get off the ground this time! I've often thought creating a new intra- African carrier in DRC or Uganda would make sense
26 ewrkid: But sometimes that is just what an alliance needs, sure they can have flights to the major cities but it's also about those little cities, look at Ad
27 spud757: Exactly what BA have done with their Comair franchise - offers good connections in southern africa nations
28 sw733: That's true. However, I still say the way SW would fit into an alliance is difficult: Star - already have SAA, with good connections to Namibia and s
29 ml86: According to the Wikipedia entry for Arik, the airline signed a letter of intent for several B748i's but never ordered them. Is this correct (consider
30 sw733: I think you're mistaking the real reason for a 747-8 - to fly behind the passenger plane with all of the luggage that the Nigerians check!
31 BOACCunard: It's not a lack of long-haul flights that would be Air Namibia's problem, but a lack of "little cities" to connect to that are not already served by
32 sw733: Agreed...there are only so many people who want to go to Luederitz, Swakopmund, Ondangwa, Katima Mulilo, Oranjemund or Maun...past that, Air Namibia'
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But I meant because of (perceived) service quality, reliability, or any of the other things that are alleged to keep people away from African airlines.
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