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Alliances And African Airlines  
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

There was a recent discussion regarding Taiwanese carriers and Alliances. There have also been a lot of discussions regarding Chinese carriers and Alliances.

Also there are discussion regarding DL and UA's operations to Africa with the question of AA's entrance. That leads to the discussion about Africa. So what about Africa?

Economies are starting to grow and governments are stabilizing. Some airlines are growing and modernizing to support their domestic economies.

South African is in Star
Kenya was recently made a full Skyteam member
Ethiopian is moving toward Star
Oneworld taking their time here as well like they did in Asia?

What about...
Air Algérie
Arik Air
TAAG
Egyptair
Air Madagascar
Royal Air Moroc
Air Mauritius
Air Austral
RwandAir
Air Seychelles
Tunisair
Anyone else?
(I went by geographic Africa. Sometimes Egypt is put in political Middle East but is geographic Africa.)

Some of these airlines have codeshares with European carriers. Others are expanding with new aircraft like the 787 and A350. Some are still getting their ground after instability in their countries.

What could Africa look like in 10 to 20 years in terms of alliances?


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting centrair (Thread starter):
Egyptair

Is in Star  



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting centrair (Thread starter):
Arik Air

I personally believe this is the next big one to join a big alliance. Nigeria is the largest (population-wise) country in Africa, and Arik is a stable, safe airline. Some alliance will snatch them up soon, and that alliance will be better off because of Arik.


User currently offlinecadamosto From Portugal, joined Jul 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

TAAG: closer to Star, because of ties with TP? (some time ago there was plenty of speculation about a merger)

User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting cadamosto (Reply 3):
TAAG: closer to Star, because of ties with TP?

The thing with joining the same alliance as TAAG is that both lose, in my book. TAP makes good money off serving Angola, and TAAG makes good money off of serving Portugal. If they join the same alliance, someone loses...any I would bet money that neither one would let it be themselves.


User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 1):
Is in Star

hahah. How did I miss that one.

I admit that I started this out of curiosity and am fairly ignorant about aviation in the region. A.net can be a great learning experience.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 5):
hahah. How did I miss that one.

Well, they are a very recent addition  



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2865 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Quoting centrair (Thread starter):
So what about Africa?

African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules. Even when an African airline is relatively nice (South African, for instance) the alternatives (BA, DL, QF, EK, etc.) are usually considered to be much better. Most of the alliance FFs are going to the obvious destinations anyways - CAI, CPT, JNB, NBO, etc. that are very well served by the European and Asian carriers. There aren't droves of folks asking for flights to Bujumbura or Bangui  .



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3314 times:
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Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 6):
Well, they are a very recent addition

Not all that recent - MS had their second anniversary in Star Alliance yesterday



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3667 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Quoting centrair (Thread starter):
Air Algérie
Quoting centrair (Thread starter):
Royal Air Moroc

Weren't there rumblings that these two may be joining Skyteam?

[Edited 2010-07-11 18:58:44]


The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Smaller African carriers don't need the costs that go with membership of one of the major alliances. Codeshare agreements where it makes sense are more appropriate.

User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 8):
Not all that recent - MS had their second anniversary in Star Alliance yesterday

Wow, that's flown by!



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlinespud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 2):
I personally believe this is the next big one to join a big alliance. Nigeria is the largest (population-wise) country in Africa, and Arik is a stable, safe airline. Some alliance will snatch them up soon, and that alliance will be better off because of Arik.

The quality of Arik's product is supposed to be great and they're building a good reputation. Perhaps with the strong ties to the UK then entry into OW alliance with the support of BA is a potential?
Trouble with africa is the bigger and respected players such as EgyptAir , Ethiopian, Kenyan and South African are already in an alliance. 3 of these are on eastern continental africa. SAA right down on in the south. Leaves west africa without an alliance member or hub for it to operate from. This again makes me think Nigeria and Arik.
The rest of Africa is pretty well served via europe on SN, AF-KL and BA and via the middle east carrier hubs on EK, QR and EY.


User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1105 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting spud757 (Reply 12):
The quality of Arik's product is supposed to be great and they're building a good reputation.

Looking at PPRuNe and reading some other things, this airline doesn't seem to be running as smoothly as we all think. Pilots claim that their paychecks often come many weeks late, that LHR and JFK are performing poorly (as low as 12 pax on their LOS-JFK flight!) , and there are talks about a change of management.

With that said, they do seem to have a great product and are expanding rapidly.... I do think OW might actually be a good fit but they should wait to see how this airline is doing in two years or so.

Quoting cadamosto (Reply 3):
TAAG: closer to Star, because of ties with TP? (some time ago there was plenty of speculation about a merger)

I don't see DT joining an alliance anytime soon. Remember, their 743s and 732s are still banned from the EU. Alliances are probably the least of their concerns!


User currently offlinefly707 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

May be because african airlines dont have enough fleet to join an alliance, even Kenya airways or Egypt Air they have a small number of planes.


Without mistakes we will never learn
User currently offlinepfletch1228 From South Africa, joined Aug 2006, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):
African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules.

The exact same can be said for some carriers in the US, Europe, or the rest of the world for that matter!

Quoting centrair (Thread starter):
Oneworld taking their time here as well like they did in Asia?

Oneworld have a good presence in Southern Africa through their BA franchise with Comair.



War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left.
User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 734 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Quoting spud757 (Reply 12):
The quality of Arik's product is supposed to be great and they're building a good reputation.

  
That is what I hear as well, good for them.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):
African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules.

That gap is fast closing, esp for the larger African carriers (SA, MS, ET, KQ, etc.). Fleet age in particular is very good.


User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):
African carriers tend to be avoided if at all possible by international travelers due to their reputations for having aging planes, poor service, and unreliable schedules. Even when an African airline is relatively nice (South African, for instance) the alternatives (BA, DL, QF, EK, etc.) are usually considered to be much better.

I've never known SA to be avoided by international travelers or its foreign competitors to be considered "much better." As far as I know it has always been regarded as a quality airline.



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

Quoting spud757 (Reply 12):
eaves west africa without an alliance member or hub for it to operate from

What West/Central Africa has going for it is the connections by European airlines - LOTS of them!

BA = Ghana, Nigeria

VS = Ghana, Nigeria

AF = Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Guinea, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Togo (plus Cameroon, CAR, Chad, DR Congo, Rep of Congo, Eq. Guinea, and Gabon in Central Africa)

IB = Senegal, Nigeria (plus Equatorial Guinea in Central Africa)

TP = Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal

LH = Ghana, Nigeria (plus Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon in Central Africa)

Alitalia = Nigeria, Ghana

KLM = Ghana, Nigeria

Brussels Airlines = Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Liberia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Togo (plus Cameroon and DR Congo in Central Africa)

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 17):
I've never known SA to be avoided by international travelers

Well, minus that whole boycott of SAA during apartheid...


User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 18):
Well, minus that whole boycott of SAA during apartheid...

Alright, I managed to sound really stupid there!    But I meant because of (perceived) service quality, reliability, or any of the other things that are alleged to keep people away from African airlines.



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently offlinenzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Air Namibia is also a very good airline . Would be a good fit for an alliance wanting a airline in Southern Africa .


"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5274 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

Quoting spud757 (Reply 12):
Trouble with africa is the bigger and respected players such as EgyptAir , Ethiopian, Kenyan and South African are already in an alliance.

Actually ET is not yet a member of any of the alliances, however, they do appear to be leaning toward Star. If they do join, that will give Skyteam one African alliance partner and Star three.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 19):
Alright, I managed to sound really stupid there!

I knew what you meant, no worries mate.

Quoting nzrich (Reply 20):
Air Namibia is also a very good airline . Would be a good fit for an alliance wanting a airline in Southern Africa .

I wish, but their network is just far too small. They only serve one city in Europe - Frankfurt. That means the leading candidate would be Star, who already has SAA...and SAA provides a much, much, much superior network. In fact, a good chunk of the Germany-Namibia traffic is just connecting on to South Africa anyways.

If Air Namibia had any hope of joining a big alliance other than Star, they would have to start another city, say London...yeah, they served Gatwick until recently, but they would have to start Heathrow, for example to connect with AA/BA/OneWorld. For Skyteam, they would have to start either Paris or Amsterdam most likely, both of which provide limited O&D for Windhoek (Amsterdam would have much more O&D than Paris). In any way, the cities Air Namibia serves in southern Africa from Windhoek (Jo'burg, Cape Town, Luanda) are already served very well by major alliances.

Air Namibia is destined to be a mostly regional carrier...however, that sounds about right for a country of about 2.1 million people. I am still proud that we have a flight to Europe...pretty good for such a small country.


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

The bulk of African Airlines really have nothing to offer the alliances- limited schedules and networks. Aside from AT DT ET KQ (sky) MS (star) SA (star) nobody is on the radar. OK run carriers like MK UU are too geographically removed to be much benefit.

It would be easier for a presumably European carrier to start their own subsidiary from scratch in Africa than to overhaul an existing operation like UM.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2234 times:
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Quoting eta unknown (Reply 23):
It would be easier for a presumably European carrier to start their own subsidiary from scratch in Africa

As SN are reportedly looking at doing in the DRC with their "Korongo" project .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 eta unknown : That's right- hopefully it'll get off the ground this time! I've often thought creating a new intra- African carrier in DRC or Uganda would make sense
26 ewrkid : But sometimes that is just what an alliance needs, sure they can have flights to the major cities but it's also about those little cities, look at Ad
27 spud757 : Exactly what BA have done with their Comair franchise - offers good connections in southern africa nations
28 sw733 : That's true. However, I still say the way SW would fit into an alliance is difficult: Star - already have SAA, with good connections to Namibia and s
29 ml86 : According to the Wikipedia entry for Arik, the airline signed a letter of intent for several B748i's but never ordered them. Is this correct (consider
30 Post contains images sw733 : I think you're mistaking the real reason for a 747-8 - to fly behind the passenger plane with all of the luggage that the Nigerians check!
31 BOACCunard : It's not a lack of long-haul flights that would be Air Namibia's problem, but a lack of "little cities" to connect to that are not already served by
32 Post contains images sw733 : Agreed...there are only so many people who want to go to Luederitz, Swakopmund, Ondangwa, Katima Mulilo, Oranjemund or Maun...past that, Air Namibia'
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