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Boeing 747-400 With Blended Winglets?  
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 17345 times:

I am wondering if we will see a retrofit of existing Boeing 747-400/ER/F/ERF with Aviation Partners Blended Winglets.

Why?

The sales of the replacement aircraft B748 are very disappointing for the pax version, so it might be a good idea to keep existing B744-operators with an upgraded B744 instead of shifting them to Airbus.

The existing fleet could be used several years longer with a reduced fuel burn and better performance.

I know that several years ago there was already a short test of Blended Winglets on an older B747Classic.


A lot of B744-operators go the B77W-way, but it seems not all of them are happy with this direction.


So it might be a good and cheap move to keep customers until they decide to buy either the B748I or B773/4NG.

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17013 times:

Don't think it'll happen just for the fact that the 744 obviously already has winglets with a slightly longer span. If blended winglets do offer a benefit on the 744, I'm sure it's not enough to warrant the R&D costs.

Interesting thought though.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16982 times:

I don't think it's gonna happen. Not with the 748I on the horizon.

User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16944 times:

Not a chance do you know how much money it would cost you would have to replace the entire wing

User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16245 times:

Why would the entire wing to be replaced?

I think it would probably need some wing rework in the wing structure.

Assuming how old technology the actual B744-winglets are, i would say a B744 with blended winglets could safe up to 3 percent tripfuel.

That doesn´t sound much, but on a ten hours flights it would be between 3000-4000Kgs. (or more payload/range)

I do not see it as long-term replacement for the B744, but some years additional operating time would make sales campaigns for the B748I much easier in some years when the airline is still operating B744s.

If the existing B744-fleet is already replaced by bigger or smaller aircraft, the introduction of the B748I at a later time would seem very unlikely.


So, in my opinion, Boeing could save the B748I by improving the actual B744-fleets for additional B748I-sales in the not so distant future.


Picture of the B747Classic with Blended Winglets:

Why No Winglets For Class B747? (by Warren747sp Oct 2 2008 in Tech Ops)

[Edited 2010-07-13 01:55:16]

User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14373 times:

Quoting 328JET (Thread starter):
A lot of B744-operators go the B77W-way, but it seems not all of them are happy with this direction.

As happy as I am that BA has started to receive B777-300ERs, I will miss scenes like this!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoE1SCUiC8M

It would be nice if adding some blended winglets to the 747-400 could prolong these views.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13945 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
Assuming how old technology the actual B744-winglets are, i would say a B744 with blended winglets could safe up to 3 percent tripfuel.

I think that's probably unrealistic. The 744 wing is already better than the 747-100/200/300 wing, and although it's winglets are older design, they still provide some benefit. Winglet benefits drop off with higher aspect ratio, so the potential gain on a 744 is not as large as on many of its smaller cousins, and a 744 winglet would be huge, necessitating enough structural modification that it could eat the benefit (the problem that the A320 fought for so long).

Tom.


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5336 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13341 times:

All of the 744 operators I can think of who really push 744 payload/range to the limit are already replacing their 744s:

UA - A359
CX - 77W
QF - A388
SQ - 77W

I also think trying to guarantee 748 sales in the future is a fool's game -- the A388 is going to keep improving, and the A350-1000 (and potentially 77WNG or 777-400NG) is going to start pushing the 748 hard from the bottom end. The time to sell 748s is within the next couple years, to operators who have older 744 fleets in need of replacement. This is the strategy Boeing has been pursuing; unfortunately it has lost most of the battles.


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12099 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
Assuming how old technology the actual B744-winglets are, i would say a B744 with blended winglets could safe up to 3 percent tripfuel.

Agreed, the technology is 25 or so years old, but there has been no miraculous change in any winglets. Aside from raked wing tips with the LR and -300, the 777 technology is 10 years younger, yet requires no winglets. The A-330 family has the winglets from the same era as the 747-400, yet no change. The A-320 family has the same wing tips, though I think blended winglets have been tried or are in trials.

In this case, the 737, 757, and 767 gaining winglets is different. There were none to begin with. I'm sure someone can chime in with changes with winglets that were original equipment, but nothing major.

Point is, there is no new technology. A tweak here, make the wing larger, sweep it back more, but essentially, nothing groundbreaking.

The 744 does have a 3.5% better range with winglets rather than the domestic version, so it would be nice to see a blended winglet or any other device/idea that would save an additional amount, but sometimes you get all you are going to get with what you got. With that said, I certainly would not discourage some inventor/entrepreneur/engineer from trying. I'll patiently await.

M


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
Why would the entire wing to be replaced?

For the same reason the 748 has an entire new wing, and new flaps

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
All of the 744 operators I can think of who really push 744 payload/range to the limit are already replacing their 744s:

because 4 engines drink a lot of fuel


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

The only exception I can think of is if someone would be ballsy enough to try spiroids.


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4595 times:

@ 413X3


So you really believe that Boeing changed the wing on the B748I because of replacing the winglets with raked wingtips...?


Are you kidding?


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

do you really believe a raked wing is just the "end" of the wings shape and that you could just mount an extension?

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

A 3% gain you can get going from no winglets to winglets, the potential of improving them from normal winglets to blended ones are in the permille range. I don't expect any winglet replacements on A330,A340,B744 or MD11 which all use more or less the same technology.

User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

@ 413X3


I know which kind of smaller problems can happen, as my company was the airline launching customer for blended winglets on the B738...  



@ Burkhard


Tests would find out the correct answer.

So far Boeing expected to get a lot of B748-orders as B744-replacement which looks more and more unlikely.

So keeping B744 customers until a new Boeing-replacement idea is born sounds like a row-risk way to me.


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

It's been tried.....


Well, at least on earlier 747's. And yes, they are huge too...

UAL


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3736 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 14):
I know which kind of smaller problems can happen, as my company was the airline launching customer for blended winglets on the B738...

I apologize I was getting my definitions confused, and mixed up blended winglets with raked.


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