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Flight Simulators Of Retired Aircraft  
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14447 times:

What becomes of the pilot training flight simulators of aircraft that are no longer in service?
Are they retrofitted with newer avionics for newer aircraft?
Do these go to boneyards also?
Are they destroyed onsite?
I think it would be a neat idea to obtain a few of these.
Perhaps for the 747-100/200s, DC-10s, L1011s, DC8s, CV880s and 707s.









Bring back the Concorde
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 14317 times:

Well the answer more or less is all of the above. At US for a time, albeit not very long, when we retired an aircraft type we sometimes kept the simulator online because we were providing training for flight crews of other airlines. When we were not training crews for other airlines they were usually sold to other companies and exactly what became of them is anybodies guess.

MD


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 14277 times:

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
I think it would be a neat idea to obtain a few of these.
Perhaps for the 747-100/200s, DC-10s, L1011s, DC8s, CV880s and 707s.

Let me know when you get the L1011 set up and running, I would love to fly that thing!!!
All of my "flights" would end up in a horrible fiery crash but hey I'd still be willing to pay some money to fail miserably as a sim pilot!



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 14265 times:

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 1):
they were usually sold to other companies and exactly what became of them is anybodies guess.

That is what I'd like to find out. I am sure there are some sitting in a warehouse not being used.
Also what happens to air traffic controls when airports are closed down?
Would be neat to have an operating air traffic control panel.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 2):
Let me know when you get the L1011 set up and running, I would love to fly that thing!!!
All of my "flights" would end up in a horrible fiery crash but hey I'd still be willing to pay some money to fail miserably as a sim pilot!



Will do! 



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14102 times:

WN donated an old 737 simulator to the airport museum at HOU. It originally started out as a 707 simulator for AA.
I saw it in their hangar at HOU. The flight deck module is huge, very tall too. And it came with a ton of mini computers, microcomputers, what looked like miles of cables and hoses. Who knows if it could ever be reassembled and put back in operation. It won't be easy. I would say this simulator dates back to the early 70s.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6961 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14035 times:

I would suspect that newer ones will be reconfigured for other aircraft; old ones will be scrapped. Any 747 Classic simulators probably were reconfigured for the 744, and will likely be further reconfigured for the 748. As with all other technologies, simulators have evolved, and the problem with keeping simulators from the 60's and 70's going is that it is likely that many components are difficult to obtain. Some things, such as computers, can be replaced by modern ones, but I'm sure that there are others that are less easy to replace. The cockpit layout is really the only thing (other than the programming) that is plane specific; to change a simulator all you need to do is reconfigure the cockpit and modify the programming. All of the motions, visual screens, etc. will remain the same.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1217 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13876 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
That is what I'd like to find out. I am sure there are some sitting in a warehouse not being used.
Also what happens to air traffic controls when airports are closed down?
Would be neat to have an operating air traffic control pane

The equipment that is being replaced/has been replaced often dates back to the 60's, so you'd probably be lucky if it even works at all! The older equipment is actually kept around in facilities in the US (in limited quantity) as a back-up. My guess is that some of the rest is put into storage and the rest destroyed. This is equipment the FAA doesn't exactly want to put out at a yard sale!

The closest you'd be able to get is a simulator. The simulators the FAA uses are reasonably identical to the equipment in use and generally available to anyone (Adacell produces some of this sim equipment). But unless you've got a spare million dollars, you won't be getting your hands on it anytime soon.


User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13854 times:

Another thing.. hate to burst some bubbles... but surprisingly, the sims usually are more expensive/hour to operate than their real life counterparts....


"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7507 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13797 times:

If i was rich,I would love to have a 727 sim.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13735 times:

Many places keep their old sims since almost all types are still flying somewhere, and being a one of a kind thing they get visits by those pilots who rent out the sim for checks. There are over a hundred 727s still flying in the US

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13663 times:

Some airlines will donate old sims. I think the two 727 fims Purdue Aviation has are donated. Also in the Ft. Lauderdale museum, of Science there is an old DC-9 sim. Probably given to them from NK.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineivo From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13575 times:

There are still 3 L1011 sim in operation:

1 at Delta (Atlanta)
http://www.flightglobal.com/director...rchMode=Manufacturer&civilian=true

1 at Air Transat (Toronto)
http://www.flightglobal.com/director...ode=Manufacturer&civilian=true


1 at Saudi Arabian (Jeddah)
http://www.flightglobal.com/director...rchMode=Manufacturer&civilian=true


You give one of them a phonecall, but make sure you are sitting when you hear the price for an hour......

Happy flying,

Ivo


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13519 times:
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Quoting ivo (Reply 11):
There are still 3 L1011 sim in operation:

I know there is a non operational L1011 sim at MKC. I saw it a couple of weeks ago.

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
Some airlines will donate old sims

University of Central Missouri has a TW 707 simulator, at least they did. I "flew" it once back in 1997.

A few years ago a buddy of mine was in negoations to buy a B-52 simulator. It was fully operational and the asking price was $50,000. My buddy offered $38,000 plus shipping, but the guy wouldn't go below $45,000. I am sure that if another came up at a decent price he would buy it. The thing was huge and most people would have no place to put it, even if they had the money. My buddy has a huge hanger so it would have been no problem to put it in there. Maybe one of these days he'll get a simulator.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 7):
Another thing.. hate to burst some bubbles... but surprisingly, the sims usually are more expensive/hour to operate than their real life counterparts

That 707 simulator I "flew" cost nothing but the electricty it was using, which was provided by the University. The guy running it did it for free.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13495 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
That 707 simulator I "flew" cost nothing but the electricty it was using, which was provided by the University. The guy running it did it for free.

Was it on Full Motion? I would love to "fly" a 707!

On a side ntoe the electric, mx/upkeep, etc on the sim is the main cost.. not the guy running it... It tends to end up in the thousands/hour to operate... airline quality sims aren't cheap... The University has much deeper pockets than an at home enthusiast that has dreams of owning one as a "play" toy...



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13390 times:
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Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 13):
Was it on Full Motion? I would love to "fly" a 707!

No it was not. It did have "video" (crude by today's standards) and noises.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13258 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
That is what I'd like to find out. I am sure there are some sitting in a warehouse not being used.
Also what happens to air traffic controls when airports are closed down?
Would be neat to have an operating air traffic control panel.

Setting up an aviation amusement park, are we? I will take a season pass.


User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1567 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13244 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):

University of Central Missouri has a TW 707 simulator, at least they did. I "flew" it once back in 1997.

I seem to recall them having a L1011 sim (at least 3 years ago). Non-moving, but still a sim. Perhaps I'm wrong.


-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13153 times:

A friend of mine who flies for AA interviewed back in 1989. AA still had a 707 simulator then, and part of the interview process included a flight in that simulator.

User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13134 times:

Not that they are for sale or anything but Alteon used to allow the public in to fly their simulators, at least at LGB before they closed that location down. It was really cool, they charged 150 bucks an hour. I did it twice, I got to fly an MD11 and a 717. It's too bad they closed it down though  

FX1816


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6961 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13108 times:

I did get to fly a KC-135 sim at Pease AFB a few years ago (through the CAP); it was non-moving, though. I suspect most airlines prefer moving sims; they will be vastly more expensive both to own and operate. The non-moving ones cannot be all that expensive to operate or convert; the main thing on them is the programming. All you would have to do to convert the KC-135 that I flew to a KC-767 or KC-30, for example, is change the cockpit layout and reprogram the thing. The only thing that would cause it to be useless is if too many of its components become too unreliable and too expensive ( or unavailable) to replace. After all, a non-moving simulator is just a very elaborite version of Microsoft Flight Simulator.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13076 times:

Quoting ivo (Reply 11):
You give one of them a phonecall, but make sure you are sitting when you hear the price for an hour......

I am almost sure that you can still pay United to come out and fly the SIM's at DENTK. I have been lucky enough to "fly" them a few times but I was not allowed to do it alone and wreck the thing! Apparently its not even good on the SIM to not know what your doing and run the thing into the ground! So I had a Captain telling me what not to do but it was still really neat to do!

BTW at the Denver Training Facility you see much more crew from other airlines than from United. People fly in from all over the world to train in those SIM's



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13023 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
I seem to recall them having a L1011 sim (at least 3 years ago). Non-moving, but still a sim. Perhaps I'm wrong.

They have (or at least had) an L1011 cabin trainer. Unless the 707 simulator is gone. I know it was there in 2003. I'll email a friend in that department and see what they have.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13004 times:

Full Motion vs No Motion Simulators

A lot of airlines have both. The no motion simulators are used for pilots to get used to where the controls are in the aircraft and to practice procedures before moving on to the full motion simulator. They are usually called CPT's, or Cockpit Procedural Trainers. The idea is that it is of no use to use a full motion simulator for a pilot to learn basic procedures. It is cheaper this way too.


User currently offlineleezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12917 times:

In Europe, some of the bigger airlines will sell them off. It is not unknown for private individuals to buy them, and then rent them out to the public for flight experiences, or to use for Multi Crew Co-operation (MCC) training for trainee pilots.

This place has a Boeing 737-200 and an F4 Phantom sim :-

http://www.realsimulation.co.uk/index.php

A place at BOH used to have an L10-11 sim, but there was a fire in it, so the top part of the sim was scrapped. They were able to salvage the hydraulics, and sold them off to a film/special effects company.

The absolute ultimate in full motion flight sim's is also now available for the public to fly here :-

http://www.concordeproject.com/simulator.html

 

[Edited 2010-07-16 12:40:34]


"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7507 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12845 times:

I emailed Alteon/Boeing in LGB about using theirs. They used to have programs for enthusiests. It was around $100 per half hr,but they emailed back and said no. I did get to ride in their Md-11,wow!


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
25 Transpac787 : DL/NW still have many sims from their retired fleet types. They sell time on a lot of them to smaller companies that don't have their own simulator tr
26 type-rated : Wasn't there an a.net member her who coordinated special deals at Alteon/Boeing in LGB? I seem to remember one.
27 Post contains links mrcoffee : There was; my wife and I rented some time a few years ago in the 717 for our wedding anniversary.. Was a total blast. Didn't know they shut down LGB?
28 FX1816 : Was it recently that you emailed Alteon??? Yeah I actually enjoyed the 717 a bit more than the MD11, not saying I didn't love them both, but the 717
29 CanadianNorth : A hanger is for hanging coats on. A hangar is for housing large objects. Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine. In other news, old sims would be aweso
30 spacecadet : What kind of hardware do these things actually run on? I always wondered how older simulators actually work. (I'm assuming the newest ones just have a
31 Post contains links UTAH744 : A quick google chek showed that PanAm Academy has simulators for DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, B707, B727, B747, and A300Bs at various locations in the USA. Link
32 greg3322 : I also loved going to Alteon at LGB. I did an hour in the 737NG, an hour in the MD-11, and about five hours in the 717 over a two year period. I liked
33 tonymctigue : There is a non-moving B737-800NG simulator at the Atlantic Airventure center near SNN that can be rented by anyone for around €100 per hour. Every C
34 CWAFlyer : Where? The sims were at 12th and Baltimore before being moved to the building near the overhaul base and then moved to STL/Flight Safety.
35 jetlagged : Sadly old redundant sims tend to get scrapped. They are too expensive to keep running without training revenue, though some have been kept off motion
36 asteriskceo : I loved doing this too!! Sadly, they're gone. I believe Long Beach CIty College owns the building now.
37 crownvic : Back in the late 1990's I went to Renown Aviations (Roswell NM) corporate headquarters in NW Miami. Renown was the last passenger operator of the L-18
38 baw716 : I wouldn't assume that...there are a lot of 747 classic operators out there; mostly cargo airlines and some charter companies. baw716
39 MileHighOffice : They don't like adding lots of turbulence because it creates a lot of wear and tear on the hydraulic actuators. The instructor (CAE) told me the one I
40 Superfly : Thanks and keep the replies coming. This is really helping me out in finding one of these old flight sims. That's exactly what I'd be looking for. It'
41 Bennett123 : Leezyjet It was a TAP L1011-500 Simulator. I still have the certificate from my "flight" at the European Aviation Flight Training Centre dated 25 Sept
42 Bennett123 : I have been reading 'European Life' which is the in-flight magazine for European Aviation Air Charter for 2000-01. The European Aviation Flight Traini
43 CitationJet : You can by the Citation X airplane for less than $25M.
44 Post contains links signol : There's one open to the public in Singapore. I had thought it was a 737-200 but it's a 737NG: http://www.flightexperience.com.sg signol
45 ivo : When you crash in a sim, you survive, in a real aircraft ???????? Ivo
46 Woof : Just goes to show how well they simulate the real thing!
47 bmacleod : I imagine AC's 767-200 simulator is still in operation somewhere. I wonder what AC did to its L-1011 simulator?
48 Post contains links ClassicLover : You can fly a BA simulator - http://www.ebaft.com/fly/fse.htm B734, B744 and B772. Pricey though!
49 MileHighOffice : Reflecting on that, I think the guy who gave me the tour 'pre-flight' was referring to the cost of the two Citation sims so maybe 15M. One of the guy
50 Post contains images spacecadet : The flight model's really nowhere near a real sim, though. I love FSX but it's really just a game. A lot of pretty important stuff isn't modeled at a
51 MileHighOffice : ALL are on the PMDG add-ons. Mates of mine who fly 744 and 73NGs say it's a great 2D sim. The MD-11 is very in depth. Freight mad dog driver was real
52 jetfuel : What is this PMDG?
53 spacecadet : Well, but they're not in the sim itself. You'll never get ATC to vector you correctly; you just have to fly as if you're in a vacuum. Are real sims l
54 jetlagged : The graphics on old sims was 2D but with collimated optics looks very realistic with good depth perception. It used to be done with calligraphic ligh
55 Post contains links MileHighOffice : Well in FS then you don't use the auto ATC, of course... you connect to an ATC server with real people. I have had a lot more traffic in FS with the a
56 413X3 : I hear from pilot friends all the bashing of flightsim, but of course all they ever know is default airplanes which are not realistic at all. Eaglesof
57 rgreenftm : I believe Alaska sold their MD-80 Simulator(s) to a company in Florida which planned to turn it into more or less an amusement ride at a park somewher
58 Post contains images Superfly : They sold their SIMS for the MD-80 even though they're still in service? Perhaps they're going to Disneyland when they retire?
59 jetfuel : Where are they still in service with Alaska? The last MD-80 flights flew on August 25, 2008. The airline is pure 737 now
60 Post contains images Superfly : I was thinking of American Airlines. My mistake. Come to think of it, what does American Airlines plan to do with their MD-80 SIMS when they're retir
61 jetlagged : Chances are that they will either be bought by the airline who buys the aircraft or by independent training centres. Until the aircraft disappear com
62 Superfly : Are there any buyers for American Airlines MD-80s?
63 Post contains links and images Superfly : Anyone know what became of the air traffic control tower at Meigs Field in Chicago? Since Chicago mayor Richard Daley vandalised and sabotaged that ai
64 greg3322 : I doubt it. An RCO is just a remote transmitter/receiver for the FSS. It would be used for things like opening and closing flight plans, weather upda
65 Post contains images affirmative : I have flown the 737-300 at Aeroservice in MIA. They have all the old, now freight model, simulators.. I was begging to get the 747-100/200 but it was
66 Superfly : Thanks. That is what I was wondering. Sorry but I ma not that knowledgeable of this end of aviation. So that means the air traffic control screens at
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