bullwinkle From United States of America, joined May 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3790 times:
Was wondering which airline back in the day when Pam Am was flying 707s to Hawaii from the west coast and UAL was flying Super DC-8s on the same routes, which line had more flights/carried more passengers to from west coast to Hawaii? Maybe one was bigger at SFO while the other dominated LAX.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21458 posts, RR: 24 Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3413 times:
Quoting bullwinkle (Thread starter): Was wondering which airline back in the day when Pan Am was flying 707s to Hawaii from the west coast and UAL was flying Super DC-8s on the same routes, which line had more flights/carried more passengers to from west coast to Hawaii?
UA had more frequency and capacity than Pan Am from both LAX and SFO to Hawaii.
777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2402 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3188 times:
Wow. Those frequencies are insane even when you consider feeder traffic. Can anyone recall if demand met capacity or was this craziness simply a "pre-deregulation" pissing contest?
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22023 posts, RR: 51 Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3132 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 3): or was this craziness simply a "pre-deregulation" pissing contest?
There is no such thing as pre-deregulation "pissing contest" between airlines, as the CAB very well managed access to routes, capacity via frequencies or total seats in a market and set fares.
So what capacity there was between the Mainland and Hawaii was well balanced and ensured a level of profitability for participants.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6465 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2518 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): CAB very well managed access to routes, capacity via frequencies or total seats in a market
CAB limited frequencies/seats for a given airline on a given airport-pair? Were lots of airport-pairs at their limits? Were lots of them way below CAB's limit? Did CAB constantly change the limits as larger airliners appeared on a route?
isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 26 Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2497 times:
If you go back to the early sixies before the stretch 8's, the Pan AM sched showed JET for equipment. You didnt know if you were boarding a 707 or DC 8 until you saw the bird parked at the gate. Lets face it...half the pax didnt know what it was or cared................but we do/did!!!
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22023 posts, RR: 51 Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2487 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 7): CAB limited frequencies/seats for a given airline on a given airport-pair?
Yes capacity or seats offered in markets was an area the CAB managed. As far as market specifics, or how this was managed, I was a bit too young to know the details, however a snippet of info is found below:
The CAB regulated airfares and decided how many and which airlines could fly between cities. The Board regulated the number of flights during a given time period and the airline capacity, or the number of seats available. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...Government_Role/Econ_Reg/POL16.htm
I suspect the CAB had some forms of litmus test possible around load factors experience on a route before they might allow additional frequencies or seats, or even possibly entry of another competitor. There might be other factors such as estimated economic growth assumptions etc, that provided some guidance but I lack the specifics as to how this was managed by the CAB.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22023 posts, RR: 51 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10): Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawii and the mainland?
Yes. They were the main US Mainland-Hawaii carrier along with United.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22023 posts, RR: 51 Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2234 times:
PA also held authority and operated a seperate daily (sometimes twice daily) PDX and SEA-HNL service on 707 for a long time.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21458 posts, RR: 24 Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2191 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11): Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawii and the mainland?
Yes. They were the main US Mainland-Hawaii carrier along with United.
Also NW from SEA and PDX to HNL, where they competed with Pan Am.
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10): Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawaii and the mainland?
Pan Am could carry domestic traffic between the mainland and Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico. Remember that Hawaii and Alaska didn't become states until the late 1950s. Until then they were US territories, similar to Puerto Rico today.
Pan Am's first transpacific service to MNL was also technically a domestic route at the time as the Philippines was then a US possession, and all the en route fuel stops on the flying boat route (Hawaii, Midway Island, Wake Island and Guam) were also US territories.
bullwinkle From United States of America, joined May 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2112 times:
What about from HNl back to SFO. I imagine about the same frequency of flights.
m404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2213 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1936 times:
Should I assume that the CAB would take into account the number of seats PA would actually be using for HNL and discount the number they used for Beyond passengers. In other words, would PAs awarded capacity be only based on the percentage of HNL pax? If so, then PA might be able to beat UA in flights but not in fact in seats even with the same equipment.
Since the HNL traffic was was such a high leisure base I would also assume PA would try to without available seat for the overseas customers. Anyone know if this was so?
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2037 posts, RR: 13 Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1787 times:
LAX / SFO - HNL were among the largest two airline markets in the 1960s.
Western Airlines was recommended for LAX / SFO - HNL authority in 1960. The award was not finalized when President Eisenhower left office in 1961. Shortly after President Kennedy took office, Western's flight engineers illegaly walked off the job. Western fired all of their striking flight engineers, and refused to re hire them despite intense pressure from the Kennedy administration.
The Kennedy administration was VERY angry at Western for not rehiring the flight engineers, and retaliated by refusing to finalize Western's Hawaii route authority. Western was not given Hawaiian authority until 1969 - after the Kennedy / Johnson administrations had left office.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22023 posts, RR: 51 Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1770 times:
Quoting m404 (Reply 16): Should I assume that the CAB would take into account the number of seats PA would actually be using for HNL and discount the number they used for Beyond passengers. In other words, would PAs awarded capacity be only based on the percentage of HNL pax? If so, then PA might be able to beat UA in flights but not in fact in seats even with the same equipment.
Dont believe so.
Just asked a colleague who had a long career with PA sales here in LA, and he recalls no restrictions on the number of seats they could sell to Hawaii. Only route that had restrictions was the pre-deregulation California-JFK services which could only be used by connections, or International passengers as part of stop-over journey.
Matter of fact regarding Hawaii flying, he states since the concept of yield management did not exist much in those days, it was a while before PA and other airlines stumbled upon the fact that it could be sometimes more beneficial to sell beyond connection seats on a flight versus local point to point traffic or vice-versa.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2402 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days ago) and read 1700 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18): Matter of fact regarding Hawaii flying, he states since the concept of yield management did not exist much in those days, it was a while before PA and other airlines stumbled upon the fact that it could be sometimes more beneficial to sell beyond connection seats on a flight versus local point to point traffic or vice-versa.
That's more or less what I was trying to figure out (below): how high was demand for HNL for pax east of California or did customers essentially have to purchase two separate R/Ts from (examples) ORD/JFK/MKE/MSP, etc. to the West Coast, and then a separate R/T between HNL and the West Coast? How were pax loads on these flights? The frequencies alone seem unusually high for what most would consider an "exotic" destination now, let alone 40 years ago.
Quoting 777fan (Reply 2): Those frequencies are insane even when you consider feeder traffic
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21458 posts, RR: 24 Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days ago) and read 1688 times:
Quoting 777fan (Reply 19): did customers essentially have to purchase two separate R/Ts from (examples) ORD/JFK/MKE/MSP, etc. to the West Coast, and then a separate R/T between HNL and the West Coast?
No there were many through fares involving interline connections. Carriers that didn't operate online services negotiated what were called "joint fares" with other carriers to remain competitive.
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