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Hawaii Flights Pan Am Vs. United  
User currently offlinebullwinkle From United States of America, joined May 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4618 times:

Was wondering which airline back in the day when Pam Am was flying 707s to Hawaii from the west coast and UAL was flying Super DC-8s on the same routes, which line had more flights/carried more passengers to from west coast to Hawaii? Maybe one was bigger at SFO while the other dominated LAX.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

Quoting bullwinkle (Thread starter):
Was wondering which airline back in the day when Pan Am was flying 707s to Hawaii from the west coast and UAL was flying Super DC-8s on the same routes, which line had more flights/carried more passengers to from west coast to Hawaii?

UA had more frequency and capacity than Pan Am from both LAX and SFO to Hawaii.


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2520 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Wow. Those frequencies are insane even when you consider feeder traffic. Can anyone recall if demand met capacity or was this craziness simply a "pre-deregulation" pissing contest?

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 3):
or was this craziness simply a "pre-deregulation" pissing contest?

There is no such thing as pre-deregulation "pissing contest" between airlines, as the CAB very well managed access to routes, capacity via frequencies or total seats in a market and set fares.

So what capacity there was between the Mainland and Hawaii was well balanced and ensured a level of profitability for participants.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 855 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Don't forget at that time, most of PA's flights via HNL continued to Australia, South Pacific and Asia.

User currently offlinebullwinkle From United States of America, joined May 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Any late night or red eye flights by Pan Am? I know UA had a red eye from HNL back to SFO.

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6896 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
CAB very well managed access to routes, capacity via frequencies or total seats in a market

CAB limited frequencies/seats for a given airline on a given airport-pair? Were lots of airport-pairs at their limits? Were lots of them way below CAB's limit? Did CAB constantly change the limits as larger airliners appeared on a route?


User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

If you go back to the early sixies before the stretch 8's, the Pan AM sched showed JET for equipment. You didnt know if you were boarding a 707 or DC 8 until you saw the bird parked at the gate. Lets face it...half the pax didnt know what it was or cared................but we do/did!!!
safe   



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 7):
CAB limited frequencies/seats for a given airline on a given airport-pair?

Yes capacity or seats offered in markets was an area the CAB managed. As far as market specifics, or how this was managed, I was a bit too young to know the details, however a snippet of info is found below:

The CAB regulated airfares and decided how many and which airlines could fly between cities. The Board regulated the number of flights during a given time period and the airline capacity, or the number of seats available.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...Government_Role/Econ_Reg/POL16.htm

I suspect the CAB had some forms of litmus test possible around load factors experience on a route before they might allow additional frequencies or seats, or even possibly entry of another competitor. There might be other factors such as estimated economic growth assumptions etc, that provided some guidance but I lack the specifics as to how this was managed by the CAB.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1512 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawii and the mainland?

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawii and the mainland?

Yes. They were the main US Mainland-Hawaii carrier along with United.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6896 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

United started flying to Hawaii in 1947-- Pan Am was the only airline before that?

When PA started flying across the US in 1967-68, I think they still weren't allowed to carry passengers to Hawaii from NY-- just SFO/LAX.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

PA also held authority and operated a seperate daily (sometimes twice daily) PDX and SEA-HNL service on 707 for a long time.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawii and the mainland?

Yes. They were the main US Mainland-Hawaii carrier along with United.

Also NW from SEA and PDX to HNL, where they competed with Pan Am.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
Was Pan Am even allowed to carry pax domestic between Hawaii and the mainland?

Pan Am could carry domestic traffic between the mainland and Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico. Remember that Hawaii and Alaska didn't become states until the late 1950s. Until then they were US territories, similar to Puerto Rico today.

Pan Am's first transpacific service to MNL was also technically a domestic route at the time as the Philippines was then a US possession, and all the en route fuel stops on the flying boat route (Hawaii, Midway Island, Wake Island and Guam) were also US territories.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6896 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

I looked at the wrong page for Pan Am in the 8/68 OAG, so I missed the flights that didn't go beyond Hawaii. Corrected counts:

SFO-HNL 7/day on UA incl four DC-8-61, plus one daily flight SFO-ITO-HNL

LAX-HNL 10/day on UA incl seven -61, plus one daily LAX-ITO-HNL

SFO-HNL Pan Am 707s leave daily at 0900-1100-1300-1930-2200, thrice weekly at 1800, and daily via ITO at 0915

LAX-HNL PA 707s leave daily at 0830-0900-1000-1100-1300-1630-1830-2145, thrice weekly at 0800-1200-1930, and daily via ITO at 1400.


User currently offlinebullwinkle From United States of America, joined May 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2940 times:

What about from HNl back to SFO. I imagine about the same frequency of flights.

User currently offlinem404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2229 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2764 times:
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Should I assume that the CAB would take into account the number of seats PA would actually be using for HNL and discount the number they used for Beyond passengers. In other words, would PAs awarded capacity be only based on the percentage of HNL pax? If so, then PA might be able to beat UA in flights but not in fact in seats even with the same equipment.

Since the HNL traffic was was such a high leisure base I would also assume PA would try to without available seat for the overseas customers. Anyone know if this was so?



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

LAX / SFO - HNL were among the largest two airline markets in the 1960s.

Western Airlines was recommended for LAX / SFO - HNL authority in 1960. The award was not finalized when President Eisenhower left office in 1961. Shortly after President Kennedy took office, Western's flight engineers illegaly walked off the job. Western fired all of their striking flight engineers, and refused to re hire them despite intense pressure from the Kennedy administration.

The Kennedy administration was VERY angry at Western for not rehiring the flight engineers, and retaliated by refusing to finalize Western's Hawaii route authority. Western was not given Hawaiian authority until 1969 - after the Kennedy / Johnson administrations had left office.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Quoting m404 (Reply 16):
Should I assume that the CAB would take into account the number of seats PA would actually be using for HNL and discount the number they used for Beyond passengers. In other words, would PAs awarded capacity be only based on the percentage of HNL pax? If so, then PA might be able to beat UA in flights but not in fact in seats even with the same equipment.

Dont believe so.
Just asked a colleague who had a long career with PA sales here in LA, and he recalls no restrictions on the number of seats they could sell to Hawaii. Only route that had restrictions was the pre-deregulation California-JFK services which could only be used by connections, or International passengers as part of stop-over journey.

Matter of fact regarding Hawaii flying, he states since the concept of yield management did not exist much in those days, it was a while before PA and other airlines stumbled upon the fact that it could be sometimes more beneficial to sell beyond connection seats on a flight versus local point to point traffic or vice-versa.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2520 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
Matter of fact regarding Hawaii flying, he states since the concept of yield management did not exist much in those days, it was a while before PA and other airlines stumbled upon the fact that it could be sometimes more beneficial to sell beyond connection seats on a flight versus local point to point traffic or vice-versa.

That's more or less what I was trying to figure out (below): how high was demand for HNL for pax east of California or did customers essentially have to purchase two separate R/Ts from (examples) ORD/JFK/MKE/MSP, etc. to the West Coast, and then a separate R/T between HNL and the West Coast? How were pax loads on these flights? The frequencies alone seem unusually high for what most would consider an "exotic" destination now, let alone 40 years ago.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
Those frequencies are insane even when you consider feeder traffic

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 19):
did customers essentially have to purchase two separate R/Ts from (examples) ORD/JFK/MKE/MSP, etc. to the West Coast, and then a separate R/T between HNL and the West Coast?

No there were many through fares involving interline connections. Carriers that didn't operate online services negotiated what were called "joint fares" with other carriers to remain competitive.


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