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Sukhoi Superjet Vs Embraer E Vs Bombardier CRJ  
User currently online330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 573 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16326 times:

Simple question here (with probably more complicated answers):

Why would any airline opt for the Sukhoi Superjet when the E-jets and the CRJ's have been proving their efficiency for years now? Why would an airline choose a new concept of a not so well known manufacturer above a settled typeof a settled producer.

In other words: where is the Sukhoi Superjet better than the competitors?


Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 632 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16174 times:

Quoting 330lover (Thread starter):
In other words: where is the Sukhoi Superjet better than the competitors?

Price, comfort (5 abreast), range


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15979 times:

I think that really remains to be seen. Lots of conjecture has been made of the SSJ (mostly in the form of jokes regarding Russian aviation) but I have to point out that the SSJ is easily more western than Russian thanks to influence by big companies such as Boeing and Thales.

We'll know more soon.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineDeltaDawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 772 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15930 times:

How many years ago was it that no one knew of Embraer?

Sukhoi has been around for a lot longer than Embraer. I realize that the Russian aviation industry is somewhat of a running joke amongst most Westerners but one has to admit that Sukhoi might have gotten it right by partnering with Boeing, Thales, Alenia Aero, Honeywell and other "Western" regulars.

After some hours with an airline I think there will be some Western airlines that will take a chance with the Sukhoi. One that comes immediately to mind is Alitalia. I know they already have some E-jets but Sukhoi is almost 50% Italian and I am sure the Italian govt will not let that slide for too long.

Only time will tell.



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlinesibille From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 479 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15746 times:

You could ask the same question with the future Bombardier C serie and Mitsubishi.
Why more models in the same "niche"?


User currently offlinegipsy From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15050 times:

Quoting DeltaDawg (Reply 3):
Sukhoi has been around for a lot longer than Embraer. I realize that the Russian aviation industry is somewhat of a running joke amongst most Westerners but one has to admit that Sukhoi might have gotten it right by partnering with Boeing, Thales, Alenia Aero, Honeywell and other "Western" regulars.

Yeah big deal if you have the blueprints of the DO728. I don't know why this is always neglected with the typical attitude: doh every plane looks similar... I KNOW that the russians where at Dornier and took all the BLUEPRINTS with them. It's a fact not imagination. 5 abreast seating is just one of the features of the 728. So sad our politicians are damn stupid. Sukhoi has none whatsoever experience in building civil aircraft and doesn't deserve the credit of the design. It's a very capable aircraft and if Sukhoi doesn't screw it up they will make money out of it.


User currently offlineGergely From Hungary, joined Jul 2010, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15014 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 1):
Price, comfort (5 abreast), range

Price, price and I forgot... Ohh yes, the price  


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 14516 times:

Any airline wouldn't, it will start in Russian and ex USSR airlines. When it's proven, we'll see.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3105 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14422 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Any airline wouldn't, it will start in Russian and ex USSR airlines.

Except that the orders have started coming from SE Asia with the following orders placed at Farnborough:

Sukhoi

Kartika Airlines - 30 Superjet 100s
Thai Orient Airlines - 12 + 12 Superjet 100s
Pearl Aircraft Corp - 30 + 15 Superjet 100s

What orders are there to-date from the states of the former CCCP?

Personally I'd love to see this aircraft make some commercial impact, it would be great to see the Russian industry stop languishing in post Soviet inertia. This can only happen if Sukhoi proves itself in the market and part of this proof is with the corporation and the country of origin not just the product, they need to convince others there's a stable future. I believe they also need to make themselves more attractive to Boeing and/or Airbus as an ongoing risk sharing partner or supplier. They need to become part of the world.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently online330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14172 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 1):
Price, comfort (5 abreast), range

Price: ok, got this. Sukhoi cheaper than competitors (ERJ, CRJ, C-series)

Comfort 5 abreast: ? ERJ and CRJ 4 abreast (2-2) seems morecomfort, as no middle seats at all

Range: don't have the exact numbers. Does Sukhoi offer better range?


So far for the airline side.
What would be the benefits for passengers on board?



Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3105 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14055 times:

Quoting 330lover (Reply 9):
Price: ok, got this. Sukhoi cheaper than competitors (ERJ, CRJ, C-series)

What is the list comparison? And operational cost comparisons for that matter. I'd like to know what is hindering this plane.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinecobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13990 times:

Quoting DeltaDawg (Reply 3):
oeing, Thales, Alenia Aero, Honeywell and other "Western" regulars.

Alenia, Thales? Western regulars?


User currently online330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13971 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 10):
Quoting 330lover (Reply 9):
Price: ok, got this. Sukhoi cheaper than competitors (ERJ, CRJ, C-series)

What is the list comparison? And operational cost comparisons for that matter. I'd like to know what is hindering this plane.

I have no idea about prices, just assumed this was a valid criteria.
List prices are one thing, but what about operational costs? Anyone with more info for me and motorhussy? And the rest of A.net off course  



Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
User currently offlineElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13895 times:

This thread prompted me to make a simple comparison between the three using some available numbers - more knowledgeable A.netters will probably be able to do much better. I added in the CSeries out of curiosity, since both it and the Superjet are 5 abreast aircraft:


SSJ - EJet - CRJ - CSeries

Basic fuselage size - number of seats abreast:
5 - 4 - 4 - 5

Seating capacity of largest model offered (high density layout):
103 - 122 - 100 - 145

Max thrust (per engine):
17,500 lbf - 20,000 lbf - 14,510 lbf - 23,300 lbf

List price US$ (largest model offered):
30million - 40million - 50million - 75million

List price per seat:
0.29million - 0.33million - 0.5million - 0.52million


Seems to match the comments above: the Superjet is cheap to acquire.

For me, though, it begs the question, why are Sukhoi not offering a much longer model, to take advantage of the 5 abreast cross-section and compete with the C Series? Do others think this is a possibility in the future?


User currently offlineTISTPAA727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 321 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13863 times:

Quoting DeltaDawg (Reply 3):
partnering with Boeing, Thales, Alenia Aero, Honeywell and other "Western" regulars.

What involvement does Boeing have? Is this involvement enough that this could be the company they work with (as in the discussions we've seen on A.net about Airbus and Embraer? Just thinking out loud, not forming any opinions either way.



Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13852 times:

Quoting ElbowRoom (Reply 13):
For me, though, it begs the question, why are Sukhoi not offering a much longer model, to take advantage of the 5 abreast cross-section and compete with the C Series?

Perhaps complexity...I would not be surprised if the SSJ continues to gain orders, and if service proves much better than Russian aircraft historically have, I could a 125+ seat SSJ.

I would think that Bombardier has to be very upset with the show. No new CSeries orders. For an airplane that's supposed to EIS in less than 3 years, the program is not doing so well.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineiad787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13808 times:

I had a long discussion this week with the guys at Pearl Aircraft Leasing this week about why they selected the Superjet. In comparison to the E-190, they say, the SSJ had 12% fuel burn advantage. This really comes from the SaM-146 engine (which has lower thrust than an E-190), while offering the same number of seats, longer range (about 2,400nm), for a lower MTOW. That was a pretty compelling case for them.

As far as western suppliers go:

The environmental and flight control systems are supplied by Liebherr, hydraulic system from Parker Hannafin, auxiliary power unit from Honeywell, Goodrich wheels, brakes and brake system controls, Messier-Dowty landing gear, Zodiac-Intertechnique fuel system and a PowerJet engine, a joint venture between Snecma and Russian engine maker Saturn NPO.

Additionally, the Thales avionics are grounded on a foundation similar to the Airbus A380, says Superjet, with an Aircraft Full Duplex switched data network ( AFDX) and Integrated Modular Avionics ( IMA) core that exceeds its nearest competitors with full fly-by-wire architecture and RNP .3 precision navigation capability and CATIIIa autoland capability.

It's a very interesting aircraft. I'll have more on the blog later today.

Onward,

IAD787



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13792 times:

It seems to me that Sukhoi is designed for much shorter range--notice it has a much smaller wing than CS100. A further stretch of Sukhoi to 115 feet with the current wing would drop the range to about 2,000nm--enough for many routes around the world.

In general, with comparable technology/design, a 5 abreast platform does better than 4 abreast platform beyond 110 seats. Given its current size, it would have to compete against E series by offering a better overall price.

Some numbers on Sukhoi Superjet(LR) and CS 100(non ER), both 5 abreast platform.
Aircraft.............Sukhoi..........CS100
Length...............98 feet............115 feet
Cabin width......127 inches........129 inches
Wingspan..........91 feet............115 feet
Range.............2,400 nm..........2,200 nm

[Edited 2010-07-23 10:11:33]

[Edited 2010-07-23 10:12:02]

User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13757 times:

Quoting iad787 (Reply 16):
I had a long discussion this week with the guys at Pearl Aircraft Leasing this week about why they selected the Superjet. In comparison to the E-190, they say, the SSJ had 12% fuel burn advantage. This really comes from the SaM-146 engine (which has lower thrust than an E-190), while offering the same number of seats, longer range (about 2,400nm), for a lower MTOW. That was a pretty compelling case for them.

That's impressive. Thanks Jon   



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13739 times:

This should help Sukhoi, at least in Europe:


"Lufthansa Technik Logistik and SuperJet International ink contract "

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nd-superjet-international-ink.html

"Lufthansa Technik Logistik (LTL) will provide spare parts distribution services for SuperJet International at Frankfurt International airport under a new five-year contract.

As part of the deal, about 800 items from the SuperJet International component pool will be kept in stock at a warehouse at the airport, says LTL.

(...)

Under the contract, SuperJet International's customers will also have access to a dedicated desk in aircraft-on-ground situations that will be available around the clock, says LTL."



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineElbowRoom From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13699 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
Quoting ElbowRoom (Reply 13):
For me, though, it begs the question, why are Sukhoi not offering a much longer model, to take advantage of the 5 abreast cross-section and compete with the C Series?

Perhaps complexity...I would not be surprised if the SSJ continues to gain orders, and if service proves much better than Russian aircraft historically have, I could a 125+ seat SSJ

Well it looks as if a model to compete with Bombardier's CS300 would face a hurdle in the agreement with Boeing (who provided "advice on the programme management and aircraft definition"). I found this in an old Flightglobal article:

"A larger version could also join the family in the future, but the Boeing connection caps the size at 110 seats in a single-class 32in (81cm)-pitch layout to avoid a conflict with the US airframer's product line".

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...evolution-the-sukhoi-superjet.html

I can't find a source for the claim on wiki that a 110 seat and 125 seat version are planned, which seems to contradict the information in the Flight article.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15695 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13492 times:

Quoting 330lover (Reply 9):
ERJ and CRJ 4 abreast (2-2) seems morecomfort, as no middle seats at all

Four wide on a CRJ is not that comfortable.

Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 14):
What involvement does Boeing have

Boeing was a consultant of some sort on the product. I think that they are also involved with the MRJ in some capacity.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEYKD From Russia, joined Dec 2006, 194 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13289 times:

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
5 abreast seating is just one of the features of the 728

Oh, that's ridiculous. MD-80 has the same feature, does it prove that Sukhoi had McDonnell's blueprints too? There're a lots of differences between the two birds, but the most significant is the cross-section. Superjet is double-bubble, while FD728 was a circle. It affects everything, especially stress. If you have blueprints, why do you change the cross-section and design everything from the scratch?


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3105 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13017 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 1):
Price, comfort (5 abreast), range

Pretty compelling reasons to buy Sukhoi SSJ but wonder how the maintenance costs go as well as that of fleet integration and crew training especially given there's no family yet.

Quoting 330lover (Reply 9):
CRJ 4 abreast (2-2) seems more comfort,

You've clearly not been on board one.

Quoting EYKD (Reply 22):
5 abreast seating is just one of the features of the 728

And Fokker 70/100, BA-146, DC-9, MD-80/90 etc



come visit the south pacific
User currently online330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12966 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 23):

Quoting 330lover (Reply 9):
CRJ 4 abreast (2-2) seems more comfort,

You've clearly not been on board one.

I have. About 10 years ago, MUC-BRU on a CRJ-200 (D-ACLC).
Even then, no middle seat seems more comfortable to me. Space may be limited, but middle seats feel even more cramped.

[Edited 2010-07-24 15:20:49]


Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
25 EYKD : Triple seats make more passengers "happy" in terms of "adjacent empty seat". One empty seat makes only one passenger in case of twins, while each empt
26 motorhussy : Sorry if that sounded rude, it was meant in jest. Could it then be at risk of airlines turning it to a 6-abreast config as with the BA-146/AvroRJ?
27 EYKD : Hardly. It should be something 16.5" wide seat with thinner (means uncomfortable) arm-rests, otherwise the aisle width would not comply with airworht
28 r2rho : You hint at it yourself: On paper the SSJ is definitely a serious and competitive design, but we still have to see how it performs in service, how re
29 LAXDESI : It is interesting to compare the Superjet(5 abreast) to E190-100. Aircraft............SuperJet..............E191 Seats...................98..........
30 motorhussy : Wonder if airlines in the West have any fears of consumer resistance to flying aboard a plane of Russian build and design? And for that matter I wonde
31 Acheron : Russian CIVIL aviation industry might have been a joke, but doesn't change the fact that Sukhoi is the most successful russian plane manufacturer whe
32 Post contains links motorhussy : And quoting Olga Kayukova, Director of Communications at Sukhoi in the embedded video (at 2'53" into the presentation): "We expect the Western orders
33 AFGMEL : Meh, I think most people think they're in a Boeing no matter how large, small, or how many engines it has. An Airbus is the thing they travel on from
34 motorhussy : LMAO. But seriously, the West's military and government communications units post WWII until the early 90's put a lot of effort into conveying the su
35 mrocktor : But then, there are all those accidents... Granted, safety is as much or more dependent on how an aircraft is operated as it is on the aircraft itsel
36 r2rho : This explains it much better. That OEW value is the magic number we had been all missing. Where did you find it?
37 LAXDESI : From Wikipedia. I hope it is accurate.
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