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SAS And Finnair 300 Meters From Crash  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4052 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10123 times:

A SAS plane on it's way to Oslo and a Finnair plane on it's way to Helsinki was 300 meters and 11000 feet from eachoter over Östersund , Sweden on 2mnd of july.

A SAS 737 with a capacity of 130 passengers and a 757 with a capacity of around 280 held the same course and hight. They were heading for collisin considering the speed and the fact that they were only 300 meters from eachother.


The situtation is currently being investigated, and much is unclear around the events.

Google translation:

http://translate.google.com/translat...s%2Farticle3739930.ece&sl=no&tl=en


anyone know anything more about this. How did they awert this one ?

[Edited 2010-07-20 22:22:09]

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10085 times:

Scary... Finnair's B752 was on route Toronto-Helsinki, SAS Narvik-Oslo.

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
757 with a capacity of around 280

752 with a capacity of "around 280" not possible, according to the aircraft data 239 is the max number of seats. AY's leisure version has 227 seats.

[Edited 2010-07-20 22:37:25]

User currently offlineSASDC8 From Norway, joined Mar 2006, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9905 times:
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I find the article a little bit strange and the English translation is terrible.

As usual when it comes to Aftenposten the article is foul of faults, but it was a serious situation no doubt.

I guess that TCAS saved the day this time as well  

Reminds me of this one in India:

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/repor...planes-collision-in-mumbai_1409342

Cheers
Stein



2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1692 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9819 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
300 meters and 11000 feet from eachoter

11000 feet must be a typing error: should not be a problem for a collision...



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3424 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9680 times:

Quoting MH017 (Reply 3):


11000 feet must be a typing error: should not be a problem for a collision...

you never know, media can be massively stupid about stuff. One "near collision" report here was exclaming shock that two planes were withing 2 miles of each other (zomg 10,000ft lateral separation) and one got as low as 500ft.

I'm waiting for some stupid reporter to go off on a plane colliding with the ground as it avoids hitting another plane a mile away. IE making a normal landing with another plane somewhere on the property.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1848 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9532 times:

if 300 m is lateral difference is too close, if it´s vertical is everyday operation in RVSM....

Anyway the TCAS never allow both planes to be so close, so I can´t understand what happened there....

sometimes if pilots in both airlines have visual contact with the other traffic we could be a little bit closer than recommended but always with visual contact...


User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 208 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9059 times:

Perhaps I can clarify some of the terminology.
We usually work with 5NM lateral distance to any two IFR flights, exception within Approach airspace and on final.
1000 feet vertical distance required at all times, exception non RVSM (reduced vertical seperation minima) above FL290.

300m lateral distance is near to nothing considering aircraft speeds. How do you measure 300m? You can´t. One can estimate a distance looking out of the window...- what is done in a standard investigation procedure, is one looks at the radar-plots (all data saved digitally for 3 months) and measures the closest proximaty of the radar-targets.

TCAS operates on a look-ahead basis and gives vertical guidance only when triggered (usually 60sec before conflict- meaning less than 1000feet vertical seperation, in present trajectory)

ATC is not anymore allowed to use visual seperation between acft above FL100, as it could trigger a TCAS resolution, and Crews HAVE to follow the TCAS resolution advisory.
This can be a bit of a pain to us, as sometimes in clear blue skies the acft are clear of each other- both crews see each other and have no objections to climb or descend- but are not allowed to due to electronics!! It is a direct outcome of the ueberlingen incident.

The mentioned 11.000feet might be Alt. 11000meters?- FL350?


User currently offlineflynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8547 times:

Here is an article from one of the local newspapers in Östersund, the town below to where the incident happened.

http://ltz.se/nyheter/ostersund/1.21...ostersund-mottes-pa-samma-flyghojd

Only in Swedish though.

Carl-Erik Nilsson, from the Swedish Civil Aviation Administration (the safety department), is interviewed in the article.

As stated above, the SAS (Boeing 737) plane were heading to Oslo from Narvik. The Finnair plane (Boeing 757) were heading to Helsinki from Toronto.

They met on the same altitude in airspace, roughly 11 000 meters. They were not enough separated and met on less than 300 meters.

If I understand things correctly (please anyone with actual knowledge correct me if I'm wrong), they met on the same flight level. If a flight level is 1000 ft (e.g. FL 350 is 35 000 ft?), that would make the vertical distance roughly 300 meters (as stated in the article).

How close they actually were, is under investigation.

The article goes on to say that the planes were warned and one of the planes were ordered to descend, but for some reason, did not respond to that. The other plane were then ordered to ascend and started doing that. For some reason, they still met at the same altitude (too late?).

The whole incident is under investigation by the Swedish authorities.


Regards,
Flynorth


User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8254 times:

Imagine they are at the same level, heading directly towards each other at a cruising speed of 480kt (960kt closing), 300m is about 0.6 sec.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineflynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 8):
Imagine they are at the same level, heading directly towards each other at a cruising speed of 480kt (960kt closing), 300m is about 0.6 sec.

They weren't heading directly towards each other, they crossed. According to the article one was southbound and the other westbound. Scary enough though.


Flynorth


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days ago) and read 6213 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):

A SAS 737 with a capacity of 130 passengers and a 757 with a capacity of around 280 held the same course and hight. They were heading for collisin considering the speed and the fact that they were only 300 meters from eachother.

If they were on the same course, how could they collide??    I know, I know...



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

A lot of stuff is getting lost on translation.

Quoting flynorth (Reply 7):

They met on the same altitude in airspace, roughly 11 000 meters. They were not enough separated and met on less than 300 meters.

I'm assuming you mean the horizontal separation was 300m.

Quoting flynorth (Reply 7):

If I understand things correctly (please anyone with actual knowledge correct me if I'm wrong), they met on the same flight level. If a flight level is 1000 ft (e.g. FL 350 is 35 000 ft?), that would make the vertical distance roughly 300 meters (as stated in the article).

That can't be possible unless one was climbing/descending, or someone was on an incorrect FL (VERY unlikely).

1000ft/300m VERTICAL separation is within RVSM limits. Horizontal separation, depending on location, is usually 5nm when enroute, which I'm assuming was the distance that was violated.

[Edited 2010-07-21 17:31:14]

User currently offlineflynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 11):
I'm assuming you mean the horizontal separation was 300m.

No, vertical separation. One plane was heading south and the other plane were heading west.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 11):
That can't be possible unless one was climbing/descending, or someone was on an incorrect FL (VERY unlikely).

1000ft/300m VERTICAL separation is within RVSM limits. Horizontal separation, depending on location, is usually 5nm when enroute, which I'm assuming was the distance that was violated.

I'm not exactly sure, but the article states that they met on the same altitude and that they were not enough separated (as stated by the ATC working for the Swedish Civil Aviation Administration). I guess that this is what they will be investigation.

The discussion about the flight levels were interpretation of the article. The article only talks about being on the same altitude.

Regards,
Flynorth


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1848 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

300 m at FL350 is impossible, it´s so close that you can say hello to the other pilots, with TCAS active it´s impossible to be so close.... and specially at the same FL

20 seconds before that both TCAS become active giving pilots RA´s to avoid the other plane, one climb the other descend, and 50 seconds before that Traffic Alert (TA) is activated and pilots checking the TCAS screen start avoiding the other traffic turning right or left.......

So for me, with the experience I have..... I think is impossible to be so close...... 300 metres from another plane at FL350 and .80 mach......


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