CodyKDiamond From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 537 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11066 times:
Skyliner notes that F-GITA has been ferried to EGBP for scrapping. I was speacking with someone from ASI who told me that up to three AF 744s will sadly be scrapped at Kemble. Can anyone please confirm it is at Kemble to be scrapped and not stored.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10046 posts, RR: 11 Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10708 times:
Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 1): But if AF is no longer interested, surely there must be freighter carriers out there who would would like to get their hands on this aircraft?
Sad truth is there are too many 744s out there now to choose from. Not all will be converted, especially not the frames which have no SCD already like F-GITA.
That said, the AF 744s do not belong to the very oldest 744s like the ones stored by BA (F-GITA is AFs first 744 and just 19 1/2 years old). Its odd that they want to scrap 3 of them. I wonder why Air Atlanta, Saudi Arabian or someone else isnt taking them to replace their old 743s. Seems the parts are worth more than what they get for the whole plane.
Has anyone got the flight hours for F-GITA? Between 80.000 and 90.000 I guess. That plane should have 30.000 hours more in it. Certainly worth a last D-check.
Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 1): they have been getting brand new B777 freighters recently.
AF has rejected most of the 777Fs they had ordered. Also some of their 744ERFs have been placed with other carriers.
Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 1): AF has previously converted their older B744 pax versions to freighters.
True, they converted the Combis, but they´ve parked some of them last year. One is with Cargolux now.
FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7353 posts, RR: 58 Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10629 times:
F-GITA was the first B747-400 delivered to AF in February 1991 and started commercial services on CDG-NRT in March the same year.
It was retired from service and stored since February 2010.
F-GITA was badly damaged on September 13 1993 at PPT (Papeete Tahiti / French Polynesia). The aircraft veered off the runway and plunged into th lagoon when during the landing in poor weather : the crew lost control when one of the engine went full thrust insead of reverse after a technical failure.
Passengers were safely evacuated and the aircraft was repaired and back into servce after a few months. Since this date, it was affectionally called "The GITAnic" by AF crews ...
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10046 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10475 times:
Quoting trintocan (Reply 6): 19 years of service is quite a decent run and around the original design life of the aircraft.
Not true. The 744 is built for 120.000 flight hours/20.000 cycles, which will take about 23-24 years even when heavily used. I´ve seen original Boeing papers to confirm this.
I bet F-GITA is below 90.000 hours. But probably it has done a lot of midhaul flights so it has a lot of cycles.
babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3626 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10053 times:
Wow, I flew on GITA from CDG-NRT about 6 yrs ago. It was in a poor condition then. The bathroom components seemed to be held together with strong adhesive and it felt like an antique aircraft. I couldn't believe AF were using such a worn out aircraft on such a long flight.
747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 1934 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9973 times:
It's clearly an economical (business)case :
- The aircraft is probably due for a HMV check.(cost : 6-8 milj.)
- The residual spare parts value (engines !) is higher or equal than the current, very depressed, market value of an 20 year old 747-400 all pax aircraft.
- Since AF is planning to close down their own dedicated 747F and 777F freighter operation in a few years, it doesn't want to create a cheap, well maintained 747-freighter aircraft for a low cost cargo airline and protects with this move the AF/KL ( MP operated) dedicated freighter operation.
On a twin, crossing an ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
Quoting na (Reply 3): That said, the AF 744s do not belong to the very oldest 744s like the ones stored by BA (F-GITA is AFs first 744 and just 19 1/2 years old). Its odd that they want to scrap 3 of them.
The laws of offer and supply. There are plenty of 744s available for cargo conversion at the moment, therefore, market prices should be fairly low. However, with lots of ageing 744s still flying, the demand for spare parts must be increasing fast. It could be well that the value of a relatively less used 744 like AF's is higher as parts than as a whole. Reminder: scrapping does not mean that it goes in one piece to the chopper to become metal cans!! but rather than components are taken off the airframe, one after the other...
Airliners have no soul, it's ok to sacrify one to keep the others running...
Loran From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 485 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8786 times:
Quoting na (Reply 12): Thanks for the info. Where did you get it from?
Welcome. The info is from ACAS, a database from FlightGlobal. My employer has a license. ACAS is collecting every bit of information on commercial aircraft, such as cycles & hours and much more (provided that the operator forwards his data to Boeing, Airbus, etc.).
Quoting na (Reply 12): 11.116 cycles is very low for a 744.
It indeed is, design life is 20k I believe. This airframe theoretically has some life left, however circumstances such as the accident mentioned above may eventually play a role in the decision to scrap.
The LH 747-400 are the most highly utilised in the industry, which may actually be called an achievement. Some of them (e.g. D-ABVB) have an average daily utilisation of over 14h.
United960 From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8720 times:
I am so sad to see F-GITA go! I had a wonderful flight on her on May 15th, 2005 on the YUL-CDG route. Those AF Caribbean and Indian Ocean 747s were, I think, the highest density 747s in the world outside of Japan, configured at 17/457. We were 100% full, but the amazing thing was that we had one of the most mellow and orderly boardings I have ever seen. My friend and I both had a whiskey on the rocks in that little bar that was right next to the smoking lounge in the YUL international area, and our row was called as we were chatting. We just walked over and got on with no line or hassle. We took off during a beautiful, summery orange sunset, and as we were seated just behind 4L had a great view of the giantness of the wing flexing on takeoff as well as the city below.
I look forward to riding the A380 next time I take Air France, but nothing will match F-GITA's style....
trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3209 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7505 times:
Seems like F-GITA's arrival was a major event for Kemble as the largest plane ever to arrive there. It is sad though that this was Tango Alpha's last arrival anywhere. The BBC mentioned incorrectly that it was the first 747-400 to be retired as after all ZK-NBS went last year - but in the grand scheme of things this is forgivable, one cannot expect them to be aviation anoraks to the extent we are here!
LVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 38 Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7223 times:
Very sad to see it go. I'm guessing current demand for cargo didn't justify the freighter conversion of the GITAnic?
I can't think of many aircraft to have gone for a swim and then flown again. For that reason alone, it would have been nice to see it at Le Bourget parked among other classics. Does AF plan to add any of its aircraft to its collection there or, like BA and many others, is it solely after their scrap value when they reach the end of the road?
747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 1934 posts, RR: 13 Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6708 times:
The initial design limit for the (non SR)747 was 60.000 hrs and 20.000 cycles.
Later this was increased to 115.000 hrs and 30.000 cycles.(initial limit of validity -- LOV)
The limits for the Classic (non SR) 747 aircraft can be extended further after additional checks for widespread fatigue damage (WFD) have been completed. Extended LOV (further support by Boeing) is then granted up to 35.000 cycles and 135.000 flight hours.
Structural the 747-400 is the same as the 747-100/200/300 aircraft and also maintained according the same MSG (3) maintenance system, so the 747-400 figures may not differ very much.
AFAIK 747-206B(SUD)SF, c/n 21110, L/N 271 is one of the 747's with the highest flight hour count (nearly 135.000) and still active with Southern Air as N748SA.
Maybe some one can give the actual flight hour number of this aircraft.
On a twin, crossing an ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10046 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6666 times:
Quoting 747classic (Reply 22): Structural the 747-400 is the same as the 747-100/200/300 aircraft and also maintained according the same MSG (3) maintenance system, so the 747-400 figures may not differ very much.
As said, the figure for the 744 is 120.000 hours before it has to return to Boeing for checks and strenghtening. I know the original Boeing papers which confirm it.
Quoting 747classic (Reply 22): AFAIK 747-206B(SUD)SF, c/n 21110, L/N 271 is one of the 747's with the highest flight hour count (nearly 135.000) and still active with Southern Air as N748SA.
I would also like to have a conformation for this. Other (retired) veterans include SAAs ZS-SAN which accumulated 117.000 or CX B-HVY which had around 115.000. Transaero´s 742s are said to be beyond 110.000, maybe even 120.000 now.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10046 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6622 times:
While asking, has anyone got the hours/cycles figures for Southern Air´s N760SA, a 1976-built former LH- and Atlas Air plane? I guess, that continuously flown freigher must be around 120.000 hours as well by now.
25 747classic: When c/n 21110 (PH-BUH) left Martinair (MP) for Southern Air December 15th 2006, the following figures were recorded : Total flight hours : 127.867 T
26 na: Thanks. With only moderate utilization this plane should indeed be around 135.000 hours and above 25.000 cycles now. Amazing. Its probably not just t
27 United_fan: With AF possibly doing away with their dedicated Cargo arm,they no longer need ex-pax planes . I also read that FX is taking their 777F's.
28 gdg9: With continued maintenance, what type of limits are we looking at?
29 747classic: Above certain hour and/or cycle limitations, mentioned in the extended LOV, NO support from (in this case) Boeing. As always, you can negotiate with
30 gdg9: Interesting. I wonder how many hours before the frame simply wears out? Of course, regular maintenance and reviews should spot any issues.
31 na: I think that N748SA will be retired soon. Sistership N746SA (same age and als from KLM) has been parked since last year, and Southern Air is continuo
32 gdg9: Southern Air should have taken up the Air France 747s! Of course, acquiring already converted 742Fs is much cheaper than buying these frames, converti
33 Viscount724: Not as high as Corsairfly. Their 744s have 582 seats including 24 in a premium economy section on the upper deck.[Edited 2010-07-24 09:20:00]
34 gdg9: Wow! What is that seat pitch? 29 inch? According to this thread, ANA's 744Ds had 569 seats, which sounds about right in the range I remember reading
35 747classic: Southern Air has acquired several pax and combi 747-200/300 aircraft (also from KLM and AF) in the past. Most of them were (are) used to keep the fre
36 kiwiandrew: OMG , I can't believe it was that long ago , it doesn't seem it ... I can't believe the famous Air France sous-marine has retired . Looking at the ph