aking8488 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 129 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6850 times:
Last month I flew from MSP-DTW-ICN, coming back ICN-NRT-MSP. I used to fly NW quite frequently to ICN (and GMP). Incidentally, the recently inaugurated 777LR from DTW to ICN was excellent. I should post a trip report on that. Service was decent and there were on-demand screens with movies, games, and television at each seat (that is until my 5 year old son somehow managed to break his and the FA's couldn't get it fixed). We even had menus in economy class.
So, what I have been wondering is this (and it's been bothering me for some time). Every morning, it seems several large body DL flights leave from all over Asia and converge on NRT around 11:00 a.m. Then, a few hours later, several flights leave NRT to points all across the U.S. At some point, flights arrive into NRT from all over the U.S. and then go off to Asia (usually in the late afternoon/evening).
1. Does anyone know if the same planes go from Asia to the U.S. or are the planes "dedicated" to Asian travel and correspondingly, U.S. (i.e. the U.S. originating planes return to the U.S).
2. Can they do this with one "set" of planes or is another set at the originating points when the planes are all sitting in NRT? I would think they would need a set in Asia, one at NRT, and one in the U.S., but it is sort of mind boggling to me.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5290 posts, RR: 48 Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6784 times:
I may be wrong, but isn't the A330-200 fleet mostly based in NRT? And I wondered myself, NRT being a hub and all, do they have a NRT base for pilots? Like Japanese citizens as pilots?
From a MX standpoint, it would make sense to operate planes from the NRT hub to the US every once and a while to do maintainance. NRT is a good sized operation, but it's not large enough to provide every need for their planes.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6867 posts, RR: 29 Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6769 times:
The only aircraft that stay within Asia are the 757's. They just do intra-Asia flights. I'm not completely familar with the current NRT schedule, but they often would schedule it so one of the A330's ended up staying in NRT, instead all the other aircraft (non-757) that came on from Asia ended up continuing on the US.
The NRT hub more or less functions as a 'directional hub' meaning all connections are either flowing eastbound or westbound, not omni-directional like say DTW or ATL.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8577 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6536 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): And I wondered myself, NRT being a hub and all, do they have a NRT base for pilots? Like Japanese citizens as pilots?
No. Only places with pilots is DTW/ATL/NYC/CVG/SLC/MSP/MEM/LAX/SEA
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): I may be wrong, but isn't the A330-200 fleet mostly based in NRT?
No, Matter of fact for the winter season (as of now) NRT wont see a 332 at all. It's 333/744/757/767/777
the 332s will be doing all Europe opps.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6291 times:
Quoting aking8488 (Thread starter): Last month I flew from MSP-DTW-ICN, coming back ICN-NRT-MSP. I used to fly NW quite frequently to ICN (and GMP). Incidentally, the recently inaugurated 777LR from DTW to ICN was excellent.
Glad to hear it!!
Quoting aking8488 (Thread starter): 1. Does anyone know if the same planes go from Asia to the U.S. or are the planes "dedicated" to Asian travel and correspondingly, U.S. (i.e. the U.S. originating planes return to the U.S).
Other than the recent introduction to the JFK-TLV route, the 747-400 fleet was a 100% Pacific theater dedicated aircraft. Beyond that, the 763's, 777's, and A330's are constantly rotating from Atlantic to Pacific and back.
Quoting aking8488 (Thread starter): 2. Can they do this with one "set" of planes or is another set at the originating points when the planes are all sitting in NRT? I would think they would need a set in Asia, one at NRT, and one in the U.S., but it is sort of mind boggling to me.
I'll use 744's as my example since that's my personal specialty.
In your example of the convergence on NRT from the interport routes at 1100a, the rotations look something like this:
MNL-NRT-DTW
PVG-NRT-JFK
HKG-NRT-MSP
So all the aircraft arrive in NRT at the same approximate time. They then have an approx 2 hour ground sit during the hub time for connecting passengers to clear customs and transfer security. After that, they all depart on the Transpac's back to the US. Then in the US, they turn back for the Orient and repeat the whole process, just in reverse.
763's look something like:
GUM-NRT-PDX
PEK-NRT-SFO
And the 777 is easy, just one of em:
SIN-NRT-ATL
It is quite the thing to see the NW/DL hub in full swing. Quite the well-oiled machine that operation is.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): may be wrong, but isn't the A330-200 fleet mostly based in NRT?
No. See reply 3 by DeltaL1011man. Once upon a time with NW the A332's were, indeed, almost completely dedicated to the Orient. Now, with significant crossfleeting under the merged DL, routes once operated by the A332 to the Orient are now operated by A333, 763, and 777.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): And I wondered myself, NRT being a hub and all, do they have a NRT base for pilots?
Noooooo.
Though when you stay in the crew hotel, it definitely does seem like a crew base
ALPA would sooner bring down the entire airline than allow this.
Quoting flymia (Reply 4): If that is true where do the 757 pilots come from who fly the 757s that are based in NRT? Do they fly in, fly 7 days then come back to the US?
They come from the US. Most are deadheads in from the MSP and DTW bases as they've had years of experience flying to and through NRT.
With the introduction of the 767's on Transpac routes, there are some rotations into and out of NRT that way; DTW-SFO-NRT, MSP-PDX-NRT, for example.
dldtw1962 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 393 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5632 times:
What about the F/A's. Is there a base in NRT or are they deadheading just like the pilots?
quiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5377 times:
Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 8): What about the F/A's. Is there a base in NRT or are they deadheading just like the pilots?
Pre-merger, I know that NW had small F/A domiciles throughout Asia to staff intra-Asia flights. NRT, MNL, BKK and TPE come to mind, but there may have been more. However, at least the purser(s) had to be USA-based.
Post-merger, I don't know if that has changed, so wonder about the interport (NW's internal name for intra-Asia flying) cabin staffing.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8577 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4612 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 4):
If that is true where do the 757 pilots come from who fly the 757s that are based in NRT? Do they fly in, fly 7 days then come back to the US?
They DH out and back.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
MPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 934 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3507 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5): They come from the US. Most are deadheads in from the MSP and DTW bases as they've had years of experience flying to and through NRT.
I thought that with Delta they had two pilot groups for the 57 and 67, International and Domestic so pilots would fly for example:
PDX-NRT 767, then
NRT-PUS 757, then
PUS-NRT 757, then
NRT-SFO 767,
Or something like that. I don't actually know which way it is so please correct me if I am mistaken.
I know when it was NW they had to DH as there was no other option but I thought that has changed.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3160 times:
Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 7): How many daily departures/arrivals does NRT have?
Daily Transpac departures/arrivals to/from:
JFK 744
ATL 777
DTW 744
MSP 744
SLC 332
SEA 333
PDX 763
SFO 763
LAX 332 (returns to 744 in the fall)
Daily Interport departures/arrivals to/from:
ICN 757/763/332
PUS 757
PVG 744 (eff Oct)
PEK 763
HKG 744 (eff Oct)
MNL 744
TPE 757
SIN 777
BKK 333
GUM x3 757/763
SPN x2 757
HNL x3 744/333/763
Approximately 20-25 daily departures.
Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 8): What about the F/A's. Is there a base in NRT or are they deadheading just like the pilots?
There is a NRT base. On Transpac flights, all but 2 FA's are US based. On Interport flights, all but 2 FA's are foreign based. Under the PMNW system, the two US-based crew members were the purser and the 'chaser', as per the crew lingo.
Quoting SRT75 (Reply 9): How many 757s are dedicated to the Asia service?
I think it's seven now.... not sure which ships are currently over there.
Quoting SRT75 (Reply 9): Are they ferried back to the US for major maintenance,
Yes. Typically via ANC, sometimes via HNL as a live ferry flight.
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 10): Pre-merger, I know that NW had small F/A domiciles throughout Asia to staff intra-Asia flights. NRT, MNL, BKK and TPE come to mind, but there may have been more. However, at least the purser(s) had to be USA-based.
There are FA bases in NRT, KIX, MNL, BKK, SIN, PVG, TPE, and possibly ICN - if memory serves.
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 10): Post-merger, I don't know if that has changed, so wonder about the interport (NW's internal name for intra-Asia flying) cabin staffing.
It has remained the same. I'm pretty sure that PMNW crews operate all the interport flights since they are allowed to staff the same flights with the Orient-based crews. As far as I know, the PMDL crews currently can *not* staff the same flight with Orient-based crews. As such, they just do turns. JFK-NRT-JFK, ATL-NRT-ATL.... no interport flying - that goes all to the foreign and PMNW crews.
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 12): I know when it was NW they had to DH as there was no other option but I thought that has changed.
It has changed. There is still a significant amount of Transpac DH'ing, but DL does indeed rotate crews into NRT circulation via PDX and SFO now. In the most recent bid packs, the DTW base had many lines that flew DTW-SFO on a 757, then the next day flew SFO-NRT on the 763ER. Same for MSP; MSP-PDX on a 757, then the next day PDX-NRT on the 763ER.
UTAH744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 170 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2915 times:
When NWA re-timed their Narita hub years ago the operation was called "fugu" which is a japanese word for a fish delicacy of a specially prepared blowfish. If prepared properly it is delicious (Japanese tastes), but if done improperly it can be fatal. Very appropriate name for the Narita hub operation. They put a lot of resources into the hub and my experience flying in and out of Narita it worked well. Sometimes OPS had to switch aircraft and wait for an inbound to get an airframe, but it worked almost flawlessly.
panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4583 posts, RR: 26 Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2317 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13): I think it's seven now.... not sure which ships are currently over there.
Most of the 757s over at NRT are the 75Js now, maybe one or two 75As still. At least 5 75As are currently operating transatlantic runs out of JFK (ships 5635, 5638, 5644, 5645, and 5646)
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13): There are FA bases in NRT, KIX, MNL, BKK, SIN, PVG, TPE, and possibly ICN - if memory serves.
Also HKG.
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13): As far as I know, the PMDL crews currently can *not* staff the same flight with Orient-based crews. As such, they just do turns. JFK-NRT-JFK, ATL-NRT-ATL.... no interport flying - that goes all to the foreign and PMNW crews.
The only interport flying the PMDL crew ever did was the NRT-GUM 767 flight back when the FA cross-fleeting had not started yet. The PMDL NYC crew did that flight as part of a 5 day JFK-NRT-GUM-NRT-JFK trip.
MPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 934 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2242 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13): It has remained the same. I'm pretty sure that PMNW crews operate all the interport flights since they are allowed to staff the same flights with the Orient-based crews. As far as I know, the PMDL crews currently can *not* staff the same flight with Orient-based crews. As such, they just do turns. JFK-NRT-JFK, ATL-NRT-ATL.... no interport flying - that goes all to the foreign and PMNW crews.
Quoting panamair (Reply 15): The only interport flying the PMDL crew ever did was the NRT-GUM 767 flight back when the FA cross-fleeting had not started yet. The PMDL NYC crew did that flight as part of a 5 day JFK-NRT-GUM-NRT-JFK trip.
As far as I know that WAS the case. Today crews of every aircraft can operate every aircraft that they are trained for. For example, any 757/767 crew can operate any 757/767 flight anywhere in the system. The only notable exception being the fenced 777 and 747 flight crews which obviously can only operate those aircraft. But that isn't a big deal as they are not cross trained with any other type.
PHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2141 times:
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 16): Now I think I have this right but once again I am not "in the know" so please correct me if any of my information is incorrect.
Kinda close, but you seem to be confusing cabin crew and cockpit crew work rules and making a bit of a hybrid of the two. Cockpit crews are indeed now fully integrated. PMNW pilots can fly DL 763's, PMDL pilots can fly NW 753's, they can work as combined crews, etc. The 777 and 744 fences *only* apply to pilots, not FA's.
The FA's, as of yet, can *not* work together given the union representation issue. That is why the PMNW crews are so much more 'efficient' as the crews for the interport flights as they can mix and match with Orient-based crews.
For the pilots, SLC-NRT is operated by the SEA-base. For the FA's, SLC-NRT is a turn for the SLC-base.
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 16): 777: Only DL Crews
ATL-NRT-SIN-NRT-ATL
Partially correct. PMDL pilots are the only crews that may fly the 777. PMDL ATL-based FA's operate ATL-NRT-ATL as a turn, but PMNW and Orient-based crews operate the NRT-SIN-NRT (or in the case of SIN base, SIN-NRT-SIN) turns.
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 16): 747: Only NW Crews
JFK-NRT-PVG-NRT-JFK
Partially correct. Again, only PMNW pilots may fly the 747-400. As far as I know, the DL side of the NYC base operates the JFK-NRT-JFK turn. But, same as your example above, PMNW and Orient-based crews will do the NRT-PVG-NRT; and since PVG is one of the FA bases, PVG-NRT-PVG.
For the SEA-base, I'm pretty sure that both KIX and PEK are turns and don't see any interport rotations. I could very well be wrong on that though, the crews may operate KIX-GUM-KIX on the 757's.
But in a sense, you have it mostly correct - at least how the pilot rotations would look. DTW-based FA's would *not* operate SFO-NRT though, as there is a small PMNW SFO-base who operates both the NRT and the HNL flights out of there.
web500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 588 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
where do they get the extra 4 a332 for the interport flights?
i count 7 from lax and 5 from slc- per a week, but 7 to BKK, & 7 to HKG with 2 to TPE per a week. thats 4 extra a332s
i doubt they keep those big birds based in narita, and i doubt that they ferry them in for those flights.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2090 times:
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 19): i doubt they keep those big birds based in narita, and i doubt that they ferry them in for those flights.
To put it simply, they are indeed 'based' in NRT. Under the NW system, the A332's were easily able to rotate from the Pacific to the Atlantic given SEA-NRT, SEA-AMS, PDX-NRT, and PDX-AMS were all A332's. With SEA-NRT now an A333 and PDX-NRT a 763, there is no link between the Pacific and the Atlantic for A332's.
So yes, there are more A332's in the Pacific - currently - than there are Transpac routes using them. A particular bird may rotate TPE-NRT-BKK instead of doing any transoceanic flights.
As for fleet rotations, you'll see occasional A332's operating ATL-LAX and LAX-ATL. From my understanding, they use those to swap aircraft from the Atlantic to the Pacific and vice versa.
PHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2044 times:
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 19): where do they get the extra 4 a332 for the interport flights?
i count 7 from lax and 5 from slc- per a week, but 7 to BKK, & 7 to HKG with 2 to TPE per a week. thats 4 extra a332s
i doubt they keep those big birds based in narita, and i doubt that they ferry them in for those flights.
On the days that SLC does not operate you can operate extra Interport sections.
So when it doesn't go back to SLC 2x per week, it stays on the ground after the flights back to US leave, but then leaves with the Interport flights from NRT into Asia.
Thanks for your effort. In sum, DL operates 27-28 daily flights according to your list. I wonder if DL is using all NRT slots they have right now. Thanks.
FilAmAirlines From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1933 times:
If I remember correctly, then DL flew 744 from DTW-LHR and DTW-AMS recently. LHR was switched to 764 and I don't know about AMS however.
FNT is the death knell for MBS and LAN because of WN's commitment
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6867 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1611 times:
Quoting FilAmAirlines (Reply 23): If I remember correctly, then DL flew 744 from DTW-LHR and DTW-AMS recently. LHR was switched to 764 and I don't know about AMS however.
DTW-LHR has never been 744.
For many years, NW flew one of the daily DTW-AMS flights as a 744 alongside DC-10s and later A330-300's but that ended a few years ago.
Occasionally there has been an operational sub on DTW-AMS where they've flown a 744. They flew extra sections of ATL-AMS on the 744 after the volcano ash to clear out the backlog of passengers.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8577 posts, RR: 8 Reply 25, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1611 times:
you missed ROR
so it will be 4x weekly ROR 75J and 17x weekly SPN 75J
Quoting FilAmAirlines (Reply 23): If I remember correctly, then DL flew 744 from DTW-LHR and DTW-AMS recently. LHR was switched to 764 and I don't know about AMS however.
LHR has never been a 744. It was a 330, then a 763, then a 764.
AMS has had an off and on 744 but AFAIK not since the merger.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
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