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Berlin Airport Strategy Question.  
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3274 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8628 times:

Kia ora and greetings from New Zealand.

Given the historic need for different airports in the city with the previous divide, what's the story these days? There isn't any need for them all surely and I think Tempelhof has closed (please correct me if I'm wrong), so what's the skinny, what's the air transport strategy for the city? And is there an aim to become Germany's premier hub again (or one of them)?

This recent photo of Schonefeld indicates there's a long term future for this one:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephan Karl



But what's the story with Tegel? Is there a competitive nature between the two, owned by different bodies or is it more cohesive and strategically focused for the city? Does one have an advantage over the other - distance to CBD, better ground transport links, unimpeded opening hours etc.

Thanks in advance for your help, insight, opinion etc

MH


come visit the south pacific
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8623 times:

Berlin Tegel is not independent but rather a subsidiary of Schonefeld Airport. Schonefeld is jointly owned by the states of Berlin and Brandenburg as well as the German federal government. TXL will be closed within 6 months after the opening of BBI, which is slated for June 2012.

User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3274 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8596 times:

Thanks PHX Flyer.

So Berlin will have one airport only; the progress being made in the photo above sure looks good/impressive.

So with the new Schonefeld, does this plan for much passenger/traffic growth? Is there a view to becoming more of a regional hub as per Munich in the south and Frankfurt in the west? How much emphasis does LH place on it and have they had anything/much to do with the new airport plans?

Cheers
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8485 times:

I´m afriad that LH will not make BBI one of his hubs.
BBI will not have many intercontinental services, but mainly domestic and european ones.
Traffic forecasts call for 27 million pax sometime after 2012, when the airport will be fully operative.
The combined traffic of the two remaining Berlin airports now is around 20 million.
Because of the peculiarity of German history, Berlin has not developed, at least from an aeronautical point of view, into
a major european hub, like the other european capitals.
I guess the geographic location doesn´t help either


User currently offlineWeirdLinguist From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8418 times:

Quoting Steman (Reply 3):
Because of the peculiarity of German history, Berlin has not developed, at least from an aeronautical point of view, into
a major european hub, like the other european capitals.

Can't knock Frankfurt because it is the financial capital of Germany and all of EU really. And yes without taking into account history, hard to see why Munich is the second biggest, and not Berlin.

Will Berlin ever pass MUC in total passengers? Or will it be third forever?

Note: I'm combining both Tegel and Schoenefeld, if taking into account just Tegel then it's number 4.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9656 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8355 times:

To answer your question - there is no strategy in Berlin. There is political wishful thinking that a city of 3,6 million plus hinterland can live with one single airport without reliever airports for general aviation and a military airport (TXL) which can handle the government flights. To top all this, Berlin, the capital of Germany will be closed between 00H00 and 05H00 and with limited operations between 23H30 and 05h30. In othjer words, one of the leading export nations of the world and the party capital for young people cannot be reached at night.

People who make such rules are called Nachtwaechter. Translated night watchmen and in Germany that word is used disparagingly.

That's not strategy, that's idiocy. The whole single airport concept is based on late 80s and early 90s figure, the decision was made in the early 90s and since then the overall traffic has exceeded all expectations. Planning on obsolete facts and figures without the intention to update = idiocy.

LH will not move their hub acitivities from FRA and MUC, also since they have with their investments in LX, OS and SN other options. Besides, FRA has a unique position of beeing located in the middle of Europe, both geographic and demographic centres are close by. BBI will remain number 3 or 4 in the ranking.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinefraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

Not much to add to PANHAMs posting.
We might see some additional long haul flights, maybe even some Star Allience flights on which LH will codeshare like Cos TXL-EWR.
But LH probably will not open a fourth hub in Germany just to please Berlin polititans. There is not much High Yield traffic, mainly because the lack of Headquarters from global companies.
Berliners have to face it that their brand new airport will be mainly used by European low cost flights bringing in tourists.
It's a fantastic city but the politicians are dreamers.


User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8171 times:

I thought the decision to close the three Berlin Airport and consolidate them
into a brand new airport was a good one.
BBI should have enough room for growth and offer service levels impossible for the old and cramped
TXL and SXF

According to plans, it will be very well connected with the city and with the German Railway network,
something that it´s often overlooked elsewhere.
The decision to close it at night is anachronistic like anywhere else.

Airplanes are nowadays very quiet, certainly more than trucks and cars with modified exhaust and high pumping
R&B music like many "wogs" here in Germany have.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8132 times:

I agree that there is no strategy - since there is no market. Berlin's and surrounding econmy mostly lives on money transferred from Germany West (FRA, CGN, DUS ), South (MUC,STG) and a bit even from the North (HAM,HAN), but there is no serious economy in Berlin. No need to any lfights but one houly to IBZ and one hourly to FRA, a few weekly to CGN for the poor guys who live in Bonn and have to work in Berlin, and a conncection to BRS which is the reall only capital left.

User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8066 times:

That´s so sad.
And I´m planning to move to Berlin next year!
How comes such a great city has such a weak economy?
No strategic plan to develop it?
Even Rome has a better economy than Berlin and Rome could count for
decades only jobs generated by ministries and other public entities


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7996 times:

If you go as student to one of the universities, or get a job there, then go for it, but the Berliners fail to see oftenly that they are not in the center of Germany, but a ruin left from the collapse of socialism in need of subsidiaries for many decades to come. If the government hadn't moved, social costs would have been still higher.

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2736 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7966 times:

From the political point of view, there is indeed no airport strategy, but rather a series of short-sighted decisions following a political agenda rather than economic or operational considerations.

From the airline point of view, LH is fine with FRA, MUC, and its many subsidiary airlines, I don't expect any significant expansion from them at BBI. The main advantage that BBI brings is that unlike TXL it is suited as a transfer hub, but LH won't be making use of this capability. AB on the other hand will, and it is from them that I expect the greatest expansion.

In any case, I don't think it will become anything like a FRA/MUC style "premier hub" in the mid term, the conditions for that are not met. And if it ever does, it likely won't come from LH but from Skyteam or OW. Potential for growth, however, is certainly there (though capacity could be another issue).


User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3274 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7952 times:

Thank you very much for increasing my knowledge on the aviation issues of Berlin. What a challenge for such a cool city.

I'm assuming BBI is Brandenburg International?!

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineicna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7935 times:

I agree with steman. It is wise to close TXL to commercial traffic, as Berlin probably isn't among the few cities that can support several airports without them hurting one another. I sincerely think it's Linate that killed the MXP AZ's hub.
As for corporate and govt traffics I think they can (and should) be handled there as well. That way you can sell TXL to developers, it is completely surrounded by builtup areas and should be pretty expensive land, to pay for BBI's debt and later expansions. And most importantly you free a huge chunk of the city from the noise and pollution from airplanes.

Where do bizjets go when an exec needs to visit Munich? Is Oberpfafenhoffen (?) open to corporate?

And I agree, too, that the night ban is wrong. You should allow limited movements on certains runways, those that impact the least the communities living nearby.


BBI is a good way to go.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9656 posts, RR: 31
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7926 times:

Quoting fraT (Reply 6):
But LH probably will not open a fourth hub in Germany just to please Berlin polititans.

LH is a commercially run company and that will not be changed. That would be against EU law anyhow. West Berlin was an island in a communist ruled zone. When the eastern European countries were freed in the late 80s their economies were run down completely. It takes decades to build that up again and some industry will never come back . Concerning Berlin, there is a city government without any vision, unless the slogan "poor but sexy" is called visionary.

The airport itself will , like all airports worldwide, attract businesses but the State of Brandenburg, surrounding Berlin, will take the merrits from that. Compare it with DC, except for some posh districts, poverty reigns and Virginia and Maryland take the cake.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3274 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7770 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Compare it with DC, except for some posh districts, poverty reigns and Virginia and Maryland take the cake.

Yeah but in aviation terms you have DCA and IAD.



come visit the south pacific
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9656 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7715 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 15):
Yeah but in aviation terms you have DCA and IAD.

I always knew you guys are smarter 

Don't forget BWI and Andrews AFB. That's a suitable concept for a capital region, if not a strategy.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3677 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7110 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
To answer your question - there is no strategy in Berlin.

  


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25838 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 12):
I'm assuming BBI is Brandenburg International?!

BBI is just an unofficial code for the new airport. The code is already assigned to Bhubaneswar, India. When TXL closes I believe the new code for what is now SXF will become BER, currently the IATA code for the Berlin metro area.


User currently offlineAirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6941 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):

The airport itself will , like all airports worldwide, attract businesses but the State of Brandenburg, surrounding Berlin, will take the merrits from that. Compare it with DC, except for some posh districts, poverty reigns and Virginia and Maryland take the cake.

There is no comparison between Berlin and Washington DC from an aviation or business perspective.

The Northern VA + MD suburbs have a lot of technology companies, government contractors, military/security contractors, and other industries that make the area an economic powerhouse. The area wasn't hit as hard by the recent recession and is thriving, with most key economic indicators significantly better than the rest of the US.

And that transfers over to the aviation arena. If you can't get there non-stop, you can pretty much get where you need to go in in one connection anywhere in the world out of IAD. DCA offers service to a good chunk of Eastern USA, plus some Canada and vacation markets. BWI is a low cost alternative, but all the major airlines service it, plus you have limited international service (LHR, YYZ, and a few others).

Berlin, while a vibrant city, has a stagnant economy. By 2012, it will have one airline airport (BBI). Shutting down Templehof was an extremely short-sighted move on the part of government there. It should have been marketed as the downtown, corporate type field, with service to key European business centers as well as for bizjets, plus reliever services whenever there is something big happening (such as World Cup '06).

As Berlin evolves and grows, I will be watching LH and AB most closely. Their route network will likely be European/regional, but government business might compel them to look at other places, such as JFK or IAD. Other Middle Eastern (DXB) or Far Eastern cities (NRT, HKG, PVG) are pipe dreams at this stage of the game.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6894 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
I agree that there is no strategy - since there is no market. Berlin's and surrounding econmy mostly lives on money transferred from Germany West (FRA, CGN, DUS ), South (MUC,STG) and a bit even from the North (HAM,HAN), but there is no serious economy in Berlin. No need to any lfights but one houly to IBZ and one hourly to FRA, a few weekly to CGN for the poor guys who live in Bonn and have to work in Berlin, and a conncection to BRS which is the reall only capital left.

Pre-WW2 Berlin used to be Germany´s biggest industrial city (with Siemens, Borsig, Telefunken, AEG, Osram, Argus aircraft engines etc. having their factories and headquarters in Berlin).
After WW2 trhe factories in the East got nationalised in the GDR and often ran to ground (due to them having to tranfer all profits to the communist central government, which often didn´t allow for re-investments) and in West Berlin, the companies moved their headquarters to Western Germany due to fear of the place eventually falling to the Soviets. The West German government heavily subsidised both us West Berliners and the companies to prevent everybody from moving away (e.g. up to the re-unification every employee in West Berlin received 5% "Berlinzulage" on his salary, telephone calls in West Berlin had a flatrate of 20 Pfenning per call). Companies got similar subsidies.
Once Germany go re-unified the Kohl government canceled these subsidies from one day to the other. This caused practically all West Berlin factories to close and some companies to go bankrupt (a slow phasing out of the subsidies might have probably have saved several of them, but the money went instead now to the former GDR).
Today Berlin is mostly administration. There are few production jobs left, especially blue collar jobs.
The mayor is more concerned with Berlin´s cultural image than it´s economics and likes to throw away public money if he can open another art gallery or something similar.
In fact, Berlin has the highest number of social welfare recipients in Germany.
I´m a native West Berliner, but today I´m living on the other side of the country. I remember vibrant West Berlin of the late cold war, but everytime I go back to my hometown I´ll get more and more depressed.

Jan


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2133 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6573 times:

Discussions about Berlin on a.net usually bring about a tenor of despair and disdain. I know it's all personal opinion and a lot of it is anecdotal, but to just to add some other perspective:

- I live in Berlin and had no problems finding a job so far (private company).
- I'm OK with the fact Berlin isn't the economic powerhouse of Germany. Germany is multi-centered. We don't have an all-encompassing centre like the UK or France. That's fine in my book.
- I'm OK with the new Schönefeld airport (though sad that Tempelhof was closed)
- I'm OK with the curfew at the new airport. I don't feel a need to fly between 12 and 5 am. It may cut airlines' profits rates - so what.
- I don't mind if LH doesn't open a fourth hub at Schönefeld. They oughta do what's economically viable. I'm satisfied with the connections I get out of Berlin.


A lot less dramatic perhaps, but that's just another way to see things here. I'm all for improving the state of Berlin's economy, but by all means we're never going to be Frankfurt am Main, and I for one am grateful for that.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9656 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6269 times:

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 19):
There is no comparison between Berlin and Washington DC from an aviation or business perspective

OMG, I made zthois comparison because both are national capitals and both have poverty within their city limits. Besides that, I hjave the advantage over you to lknow the DC area and the capital beltway since the early 70s and I can tell you, it hans't always been like it is today. May be in 30 or 40 years, the area around Berlin is as prosperous as most Virgina and Maryland suburbs are today. The German word for that is "Speckguertel" by the way -literally translated bacon belt.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 19):
As Berlin evolves and grows, I will be watching LH and AB most closely. Their route network will likely be European/regional, but government business might compel them to look at other places, such as JFK or IAD. Other Middle Eastern (DXB) or Far Eastern cities (NRT, HKG, PVG) are pipe dreams at this stage of the game.

If a route is viable, LH and AB will start flying. If Goivernment officials buy enough tickets on a given route, fine. The German Airforce runs a regular between CGN and IAD and they have a station at IAD, BTW.

Quoting Rara (Reply 21):
I'm OK with the curfew at the new airport. I don't feel a need to fly between 12 and 5 am. It may cut airlines' profits rates - so what.

Tell the passengers whose flights are delayed and instead of landing at 1.00 am have to go to LEJ HAJ or CGN that YOU don't need to fly between 12 and 5 am.. As a self-employed entreprenour, I can also tell you some news, before profit comes cost and the costs have to be earned first. Diversions add to costs which have to be passed on to the customers. Next - if the day can't start at 4 am in the summer season, 3 rotations to PMI and IBZ are not possible. The fixed costs for the aircraft remain the same and have to be spread over 2 instead of 3 rotations.

The Spanish carrier can do 3 because there are no restrictions, which, at the end of the day means that the German carrier is no longer competetive and has to go out of business. Jobs are lost and the taxman has less taxes and social contributions. "Profit" is what is left over at the end and that's usually the smallest amount on the balance sheet. Night curfews are simply stupid and don't serve any good.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6222 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Quoting Rara (Reply 21):
I'm OK with the curfew at the new airport. I don't feel a need to fly between 12 and 5 am. It may cut airlines' profits rates - so what.

Tell the passengers whose flights are delayed and instead of landing at 1.00 am have to go to LEJ HAJ or CGN that YOU don't need to fly between 12 and 5 am.. As a self-employed entreprenour, I can also tell you some news, before profit comes cost and the costs have to be earned first. Diversions add to costs which have to be passed on to the customers. Next - if the day can't start at 4 am in the summer season, 3 rotations to PMI and IBZ are not possible. The fixed costs for the aircraft remain the same and have to be spread over 2 instead of 3 rotations.

The Spanish carrier can do 3 because there are no restrictions, which, at the end of the day means that the German carrier is no longer competetive and has to go out of business. Jobs are lost and the taxman has less taxes and social contributions. "Profit" is what is left over at the end and that's usually the smallest amount on the balance sheet. Night curfews are simply stupid and don't serve any good.

Also, a curfew makes a serious cargo operation impossible. Most cargo (and courier freight) gets collected during daytime and moved at night, to reach the destination next working day. Air cargo is mostly stuff which is required on short notice and where the customer is willing to pay €€€ to get it moved fast.


Jan


User currently offlinefraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 19):
Berlin, while a vibrant city, has a stagnant economy. By 2012, it will have one airline airport (BBI). Shutting down Templehof was an extremely short-sighted move on the part of government there. It should have been marketed as the downtown, corporate type field, with service to key European business centers as well as for bizjets, plus reliever services whenever there is something big happening (such as World Cup '06).

Exactly, something like LCY. It's a shame that this airport was closed. They could have limited the aircraft type to Corp Jets and Regional Jets.


25 Post contains images Thorben : Very interesting subject. I remember some intense debates about the closure of THF and why Berlin is such a place and can't be more like Zurich or Van
26 328JET : I agree by 100 percent with PanHam! It is indeed a shame for a city like Berlin to focus on a single airport system with only two runways and nightclo
27 MD11Engineer : Back in 1977, when Tegel South (before the airlines used an improvised Terminal in the former French airbase on the northern side of the runways) was
28 motorhussy : Thanks Brandenbergers and others for your many and varied insights into the state of Berlin's aviation and peripheral issues influencing it, I feel I
29 PanHAM : That's really the minor problem. FEDEX and UPS may be happy with the cut-off times for their feeder to CGN and CDG and DHL simply trucks to LEJ which
30 Thorben : Typical Greens (lack of) logic. People don't fly less because they have to go to the airport by car, they just produce even more CO². Nevertheless,
31 Post contains images r2rho : This is a very common misunderstanding. Those of us who defend a 2-airport strategy for Berlin are not talking about a LIN - MXP type situation, with
32 PanHAM : Exactly so. That would have kept all options open for the future. ...which may be not enough in peak times in the very near future. That means, no sl
33 Post contains images Steman : I Are you guys saying thar right from the start BER will be slot constrained? Two very well apart runways and a big midfield terminal won´t be enough
34 PanHAM : Not right from the start, but with the traffic increase over the past years and the then reduction from 120 possible movements per hour to 84 there is
35 Steman : If the economic situation of the Berlin area is as weak as it´s been reported here, I wouldn´t expect a big need of GA traffic, not enough to justif
36 PanHAM : Sorry but you did not read the contributions here. TXL will be closed as well 6 months after the opening of BER. If TXL would be kept open, this threa
37 Post contains links dazeflight : Funny to read all those discussions about Berlin here and in other forums. Mostly, the Berlin putdowns come from people living in one of Germanys prov
38 PanHAM : Only if the government totally screws up the amendment of the applicable federal law. I doubt that since this would mean the end l´f LH cargpo and a
39 Steman : I´m sorry if I gave the impression of not being attentive of previous posts. The thread started some days ago and I didn´t go through it over again.
40 PanHAM : OK, it's a difficult situation if you are not familiar with Berlin over the decades. It is not easy to understand for outsiders. A very large portion
41 Thorben : The problem will not be so much the slots, rather terminal capacity. The two independent runways can handle almost the same as the current TXL and SX
42 PanHAM : I wrote that in a previous thread about the topic already, fully agree. And it takes 10-20 years for a new terminal, if not longer. Still, with the w
43 MD11Engineer : Exactly. Wowereit makes politics for people of his own class and background: Academics with a stress on liberal arts and law. People, who like him, a
44 dazeflight : @ PanHAM: I am happy you were wrong with your assertion. Wishful thinking to created something like the inhuman London estate market is nothing short
45 Post contains images Steman : Thank you Dazeflight, yours are encouraging words. I also think that the consolidation of the three old airports (two of which with no room to grow) i
46 PanHAM : Thanks fo your Schadenfreude, but in my opinion it's not inhuman to invest and hence keep up a historic landmark- "Joining forces"? What are you talk
47 Steman : @PanHam Can you pls explain me why the consolidation into one airport is bad? If I´m not wrong both THF and TXL had no further room to grow. SXF migh
48 PanHAM : Well, take the time and read all the contributions here, you will find the answers., You should also familiarize yourself with the topic, not 3 airpor
49 Steman : Thank you for your help.´ I´ll do as you say
50 columba : With AB joining Oneworld it opens up a lot of new opportunities for Berlin, I think it is a great chance and maybe some Oneworld carriers will move fr
51 frat : If BER really becomes a OW-Hub (I still see better chances for DUS) then the problems, which PANHam and others are writing about (capacity) might ari
52 Burkhard : Currently this would mean one daily AA - not likely.
53 PanHAM : AA will remain at FRA, they have a lot of military traffic here and since the HQ moves from Heidelberg to Wiesbaden, 15 minutes down the road from Rhe
54 MD11Engineer : Rolls Royce and Daimler are OUTSIDE Berlin in the neighbouring stare of Brandenburg, as will be the new airport. I´m quite sure that most of t5he tx
55 columba : I believe that this will happen. Cathay and Royal Jordanian are also likely to fly to BER. Not so sure about LAN and Qantas but I would not rule that
56 motorhussy : Yes but cities are for people and people want to live in cities that afford a good quality of life which in turn attracts business to it.
57 PanHAM : Qantas will have a problem with their required departure time, lading time as well. With the threatening curfew at FRA they might even leave here, bu
58 Post contains links r2rho : It's not crowded now, but the question is tomorrow. I agree that in terms of terminal capacity BBI will just barely meet the needs of today and will
59 MD11Engineer : Expect protests and lawsuits if BBI will be expanded. Jan
60 dazeflight : You've invested and have surely gained a return that should be well above other conservative financial assets. Yet you're crying out loud because you
61 MD11Engineer : Knowing how the first Red-Green government under Momper in, at this time, West Berlin, sabotaged any improvements in TXL (e.g. the story about office
62 dazeflight : @ MD11Engineer: a U-Bahn connection or a second hexagon would neither make the two runways separately usable nor change the location close to the city
63 HansaRostock : signed! Working in a "small" lab-equipment company 2009 was a nice year...besides not being involved at all in this "crisis"(haha) we had opportuniti
64 Post contains images PanHAM : Calm down, only greed advances mankind, believe it or not. Without my greed I cannot pay taxes and without taxes the hartzies won't get paid, the poo
65 Post contains images wsp : Jun 2001 - The left/green/left coalition under mayor Wowereit takes control of senate in the wake of the banking scandal Jan 2002 - The left/left coal
66 PanHAM : The market happens, with or without Wowereit, regardless who is running the government of the city. The market dos not have to ask for permission, the
67 wsp : This may or may not be true, however my point was that if it were true that they are actively opposed to aviation (PDS was opposed to BER, at least a
68 PanHAM : One core point of mine is that with the reduction from 3 to 1 Berlin limits its options for the future. The city government activley opposed aviation
69 Post contains images r2rho : Why do you leave out THF? As we are repeatedly saying, the slot limitations will not happen today. But they will happen, and with AB joining OW, it c
70 PanHAM : Just to add to this what hasn't been said yet - one existing runway at SXF is closed as well-. They keep one of the old runways and have build a compl
71 dazeflight : Because THF would have only be of use for GA. Profitable passenger operations have been proven to be impossible without the pax numbers of the 70s an
72 Viscount724 : Berlin doesn't want to repeat the errors of the past in Montreal when the now-closed (to scheduled flights) Mirabel airport (YMX) handled internation
73 Andaman : I'm sure Finnair is very interested how the long haul traffic from Berlin to Asia develops, northern Germany is kind of their home market.
74 PanHAM : look at the runway pattern of airports like PHX or many others. A third runway does not need to equaöl the lenght of the main runways 2000 to 2500 m
75 MD11Engineer : In Berlin GA is a dirty word, synonymous with "toy for stinking rich bl##dy capitalists". SXF is currently actively discouraging GA aircraft, through
76 dazeflight : @ PanHAM: I was not talking about the length but about the proximity of the runway which was a limiting factor. As I have already pointed out, making
77 PanHAM : @ dazteflight - yes, i understood what you meant. look at PHX and the proximity of the new, third runway. And, yes, THF would have been an asset for B
78 dazeflight : @ PanHAM: in Phoenix, the runway was needed. In Berlin, not. It's as simple as that. I still fail to see why huge investments should be made for somet
79 r2rho : As I was proposing........ For the 5th time in this thread: I am not proposing competing airports. Please read my posts. You are not understanding th
80 PanHAM : Its difficult to get themessage across, obviously. I keep mentioning that the existing infrastructure should be preserved in order to cope with futur
81 Burkhard : Nice one!!!! "I a talking about the fact that Berlin is completely stripping itself from all future options to cope with aviation growth." Yes and no
82 MD11Engineer : Berlin suffers from both, gigantism and provincial (Kiez) mentality. The problem is that core Berlin used to be much smaller. Most of the outlying pa
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