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748i With More Than 500 Seats  
User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21992 times:

Now that Farnborough is over with no 748i order and more talks of 748i's demise in this forum, is Boeing thinking harder about using the OSU (overhead service unit) area for more seats? The challenge is how to certify necessary emergency exits.

As recent as last month, designs for OSU application is still very much active.
http://www.idsa.org/content/content1/skyloft

There are also real designs being contracted for OSU applications in four 748 VIPs.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeings-skylofts-gets-new-bert.html

Boeing has already designed all interior wiring and piping to reserve space for OSU. Current OSU is only meant for in flight service use and not intended for passengers during take off and landing.

Given the ever improving A380 and all the talks of 777NG, the only way the 748i can improve its CASM competitiveness is by adding seats using the OSU area. With 50 more seats, 748i can actually move ahead of A380 in terms of CASM.

How can Boeing add emergency exits to the OSU?

Assuming Boeing can add 50 Y seats. The extra weight of the pax+baggage and OSU+seats structure may amount to 10000kg.

100 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21871 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Thread starter):
There are also real designs being contracted for OSU applications in four 748 VIPs.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl....html
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeings-skylofts-gets-new-bert.html


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5687 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21789 times:

I just don't see it happening personally, but that's just me. I would love to see the 748i be a better seller, but it's going to have to come on it's own niche merits, and not from shoe-horning passengers into every nook and cranny.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21763 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Thread starter):
Now that Farnborough is over with no 748i order and more talks of 748i's demise in this forum, is Boeing thinking harder about using the OSU (overhead service unit) area for more seats?

While I would agree adding the seats would improve the CASM, I don't think Boeing is willing to dump anymore into the 748i. They have a successful 748F which can and will, in time, soak up whatever losses the the 748i might bring to the program. The 748i stands at around 32 orders or so, so it's not as if it's a total loss. I think Boeing would be much wiser in investing anymore money in other places. The cost of adding seats, windows, re-certifying exiting, etc, would be prohibitively expensive, not to mention, would further delay an already delayed program.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21719 times:

@ cosmofly

With todays announcement from GP about further small fuel savings on the A388, it is not very likely, that any B748I-variant would have a chance of similar CASM.

And to certify the crown area for around 50 pax, you simply need windows in it plus emergency doors.
So basically, you would not be allowed to simply use the crown, you would have to stretch the upper deck!

IF it is around 10 tons additional weight as you mentioned, than the B748I looses 10 tons of potential cargo on given routes.

And the cargo capability seems to be the only advantage of the B748I vs. the A388.


So, no way in my eyes!


The Boeing 748i was dead before birth.


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21346 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
it's going to have to come on it's own niche merits

Combi

Increase 748i cruise speed to save 1 hour on long trips - aka 748i sonic cruiser  


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10165 posts, RR: 97
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21262 times:
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Quoting cosmofly (Thread starter):
the only way the 748i can improve its CASM competitiveness is by adding seats using the OSU area.

But haven't Boeing been hawking this around the bazaars since the 748 was launched, with no takers?

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
The Boeing 748i was dead before birth.

I wouldn't bet on that myself

Rgds


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 21138 times:

Can someone provide a diagram of where the OSU area is, I am having a hard time understand it?

User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 21070 times:

There is another chance of getting more than 500 pax into the B748I:


Simply sell some to Corsair...  


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20859 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Thread starter):
With 50 more seats, 748i can actually move ahead of A380 in terms of CASM.

That is still not going to do much for sales. Sure a 748i packed to the gills in high density configuration, packing passengers into the OSU might slip ahead of the A380 with a much more comfortable density in CASM but the A380 could easily add seats and move back into the lead.

I think there is still a substantial possibility that the 748i will be canceled and the freighter will be the only model delivered. The only passenger version would be a future Air Force One.


User currently onlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20824 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Thread starter):
challenge is how to certify necessary emergency exits.

The 747 is certified to 580 or so. This is why the 777 has taken over the 747 domestic usage since they are certified to 550 and burn alot less fuel for virtualy the same seats in a high density configuration.


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5757 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20754 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
I think there is still a substantial possibility that the 748i will be canceled and the freighter will be the only model delivered.

  

The first plane is already mostly built. The engineering is completely done.

Lufthansa badly needs the 748s to replace its oldest 744s, which will be running up against the hours limit in a few years. Airbus will not be able to provide A380s in that time frame, nor Boeing 77Ws.

Even if LH and KE are the only airline customers, it will be built, because most of the expense has already been spent.


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20679 times:

I agree with AADC10.

As soon as the B 777NG is started, the B748I will be stopped.

Lufthansa needs a replacement for the B744, yes.
But that could be another a/c type as well.

Lufthansa got a very, very sweet deal, but i assume they would get the same for the new B777.

 


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1583 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20532 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
With todays announcement from GP about further small fuel savings on the A388, it is not very likely, that any B748I-variant would have a chance of similar CASM.

And as RR have an upgrade planned for 2011-12 the competition between engine suppliers will further drive CASM down. Different product but maybe if the 77W had engine competition it would be an even more efficient platform and the A350-1000 would have to be even better to break through.



BV
User currently offlineJayinKitsap From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19759 times:

Well the OSU is getting certification for the VIP birds, I suppose then it could be offered pretty easily then to airlines that wanted it (also for just in flight occupancy). It is already being considered for crew rest and galley space, providing 12 more seats on the main deck.

I expect the 748I to get about 60 more orders, at about 10 per year.


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18864 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 7):
Can someone provide a diagram of where the OSU area is, I am having a hard time understand it?
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/closeoutfairing.jpg


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18675 times:

I think the only way out of this is to extend the upper deck all the way to the tail and to add bigger more powerful engines. It could also have some advanced technology introduced.

That may sound like another aircraft currently flying but it would have the 748i brand number. Most people don't know what aircraft they are travelling on anyway.


User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18677 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
Simply sell some to Corsair...

Only 500?! Must be all first class.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8450 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18018 times:
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Lufthansa ordered the 748i because it ruly has a place in its fleet as the second biggest airplane, naturally the A380 is the whale here with 526 seats. The 748 is next down at 450 seats followed by A340-600 at 350 seats and finnaly the A330/340-300 at under 300 seats.

LH of course is one of the biggest international airlines, most airlines only need 2 sizes for long haul planes but the top end has shown a niche need for something bigger then a 747-400.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 16879 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
Lufthansa ordered the 748i because it truly has a place in its fleet...

Exactly.

Folks need to remember that LH has expressed serious interest in a larger 747 since around 2000, which is when they also committed to the A3XX/A380. So for LH, it's never really been a case of "A380 or 747", but instead a case of "A380 and 747".

I'm sure LH received a nice deal, but the implications/claims some have made that they paid under $100 million a complete frame and Boeing also paid for ancillaries like simulators and such are just not true. If it was, the 747-8 would have more orders than it does because Boeing would have accepted those deals they declined in 2008 and 2009 as being "too low". Quite simply, if the only deals Boeing could sign for the 747-8 Intercontinental would lose them money, they never would would have offered the model and just launched the 747-8 freighter.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16596 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
The 748 is next down at 450 seats

The Lufthansa 748 will have 405 seats


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2736 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15770 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 5):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 2):
it's going to have to come on it's own niche merits

Combi

A combi version will NOT be offered. FAA regulations now say any new airplane must have a permanent bulkhead between pax and cargo if both are to be located on the same level. This takes away any flexibility an airline used to enjoy with older 747 and MD11 combis. An airline can't make a 748 combi all passenger one month, all cargo another month, and a combination of the two a third month. A 748 combi would have to stay part pax and part cargo for the life of the airplane.


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15269 times:

Another 748 VIP opportunity at Korea. The OSU should be a plus.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/07/205_70031.html

Quoting bohica (Reply 21):
An airline can't make a 748 combi all passenger one month, all cargo another month, and a combination of the two a third month

I believe current combi operators such as KLM, EVA, Air China, Asiana ... never change their configurations.


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2736 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15128 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 22):
I believe current combi operators such as KLM, EVA, Air China, Asiana ... never change their configurations.

I believe you're right but they also have the flexibility to change the configuration if necessary.


User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 630 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13898 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
With todays announcement from GP about further small fuel savings on the A388, it is not very likely, that any B748I-variant would have a chance of similar CASM.

This is from ATW Online, dated 7/15:

Lufthansa believes that the 747-8, which will enter service late next year, will have almost the same fuel burn per passenger as the A380 on LH’s typical missions while the CSeries will outperform both.

“These are numbers on our load factors, on our network and in our configurations," Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz told attendees at ATW’s Eco-Aviation Conference in Washington last month. He said the 747-8 will have a fuel burn of 3.51 liters per passenger per 100 km. while the A380 with Rolls-Royce engines, which LH also has ordered, will achieve a burn of 3.4 litersand the CSeries powered by the Pratt & Whitney PW1000G will burn just 3.1 liters on the same basis.


http://atwonline.com/eco-aviation/ar...assenger-bettering-a380-747-8-0714

There is hope yet for the 748i. For LH, fuel burn is only fractionally higher than the A380.


25 EL-AL : Both B757-300 and B767-400 sold badly, still, both were built. When B753 was desined, there were just 17 orders, yet, it wasn't cancelled. I believe
26 Post contains images BMI727 : The freighter will be paying the bills anyway. We obviously will never know how much extra money was put into the pax version, but it may not be the
27 328JET : @ BoeingVista Exactly what i think. If two engines would be offered on the B77W/L/F, the fuel burn would be much lower due competition. @ El Al Both t
28 gkirk : Agree with that, the 753 and 764 should have been introduced 10 years earlier.
29 scbriml : Yes they have. No takers because anything an airline puts up there in the way of pax amenities is just dead-weight since the area cannot be occupied
30 CharlieNoble : Agree - IMO the idea of A380 vs B748 is a red herring anyway due to the capacity difference. If airlines can find a use for three different versions
31 cosmofly : Not if Boeing can find ways to certify OSU for pax occupancy for take off and landing. This can add another 50 pax seats in addition to the regular B
32 BMI727 : True. Although those don't account for many orders, those guys are probably paying basically list price. Combined with the freighter, I don't think t
33 Post contains images Stitch : Well the 747-8 has it in the bag, since according to some, KE ordered the 747-8 because one of their subsidiaries makes a few parts for it, so the go
34 Post contains images astuteman : If you like I can dredge up the threads from 2006 where Boeing Aficionados refused to believe any other ratio than the opposite of the one you have j
35 Post contains images Stitch : Agreed, but then most of these arguments have been based on using "generic numbers" from both Airbus and Boeing for their respective platforms. So th
36 XT6Wagon : Did LH change the seating plans on one or both planes in that time? I know at one point we were looking at virtualy the same premium seating for both
37 DfwRevolution : That isn't necessarily true. The 777LR has competition even if you neglect the upcoming A350 variants. It is fighting for the same capital that could
38 astuteman : Illustrating the point perfectly, there's no way that the actual trip fuel burns of these planes have moved relative to one-another by more than a co
39 Stitch : The 2006 and 2009 numbers were 549 seats for the A380-800 and around 420 seats for the 747-8. I imagine the July 2010 numbers reflect the 526 seats o
40 Post contains links ElbowRoom : The answer is that LH has reduced the seat count in its A380 by about 10%. It was to be be 550 (see this thread: LH A380 Cabin Config (by NorthstarBoy
41 keesje : When Lufthansa ordered the 747-8i's they assumed Boeing would sell a bunch of them in the following years. They didn't. Now does this really matter t
42 Stitch : It still won't stop them from taking all 20 on order and might just convince them to convert their 20 options since it better leverages their - and L
43 BMI727 : Not really. Good thing they won't be then. Signed, Cargolux, NCA, Emirates, Korean Air, Cathay Pacific, and Atlas.
44 bmacleod : ANA has'nt decided what their intentions are regarding 744 replacement. One or more Chinese airline could be looking at the 748i. AF1's VC-25 has man
45 Stitch : A bit late for that, since Boeing has already started assembling the first 747-8 Intercontinental.[Edited 2010-07-24 13:02:06]
46 Post contains links cosmofly : Using Cathay's latest 744 layout as reference http://seatexpert.com/seatmap/101/Ca...747-400_%28New_long_haul_seats%29/ The 748i can fit 9 first (unr
47 Post contains links and images keesje : If Boeing could use the OSU to free the maindeck for more seats, moving galleys, toillets, water, etc upstairs that would compensate the expensive ext
48 cosmofly : Actually it is much better because we are comparing 3+3 on the 744 UD vs 1+1 in the OSU. They can narrow the aisle headroom width and also lower the
49 quiet1 : Even in a 1+1 Y+ configuration, wouldn't it be a bit claustrophobic with no windows?
50 Schweigend : Yes, finally we have an end to unrealistic seat-count claims, etc--we have an airline that will operate both types--and an honest comparison of typic
51 astuteman : When I did some calculatons based on a) payload range charts, and then b) some (very simple) drag calcultions, both generic, of course, using the 560
52 thefuture : 500 seats doesn't sound that many. Airlines like FJ have 2 class config on their 744's & total 458 seats.
53 Post contains images cosmofly : The 737-700 has 75 square meter (800 sq ft) of cabin floor space, and the OSU claims the same cabin space. A 1+1 configuration in such a space would
54 AirlineReporter : That might sound all well and good, but I am guessing most passengers want that window. Maybe provide more space, no windows, at the same price. Mark
55 Post contains images astuteman : Not my post, friend Rgds
56 baw716 : The problem with the 748i is that the 77W renders it, well, unnecessary. KE has ordered a few to replace their 744s, but most carriers are dumping the
57 DocLightning : Also, it served one other very important purpose: it gave airlines bargaining leverage with Airbus over the A380. "If you don't cut us a deal, Boeing
58 Stitch : It's at least a half a billion USD per Boeing statements. Boeing has stated they have declined some potential 747-8 Intercontinental orders due to pr
59 francoflier : These talks of the 'demise' of the 748 on here annoy me. It's competitor hasn't exactly been flying off the shelf (pun intended) in the same time fra
60 Post contains images cosmofly : What is the absolute show stopper in terms of certifying emergency exits for OSU? If customer wants good CASM extra capacity to position 748i in betw
61 Aesma : My only experience on a 747 (and of a long haul flight for that matter) is on a Corsair charter flight, 100% full. Was fun, but I didn't stay much in
62 JayinKitsap : I think with the 748I we are still in a "Wait and See" period. The 380 is flying but only 33 delivered so far. If they get to 25 per year the backlog
63 Post contains images Stitch : LH is going to fly both aircraft on long-haul missions. Heck, if you look at the chart, the 747-8 flies 1,500km farther than the A380-800 so maybe LH
64 baw716 : I don't actually know, which is why I asked the question...I actually agree with you. OSUs could be a good thing, IF they could be made to work witho
65 328JET : In my opinion a Boeing 747-8 should have much less seats in Eco. The cabin width is not sufficient for todays comfort in 10 abreast layout. Comparable
66 Schweigend : Not really. If a carrier already operates a couple-dozen 744s, integrating the 748 into the existing fleet would be a piece of cake compared to getti
67 ElbowRoom : I agree with your numbers, however it is worth noting that the A388 (10 abreast) and B777 (9 abreast) are unusually spacious in Y class. Other curren
68 Stitch : Actually at 8-abreast, the A330 and A340 offer similar seat cushion and seat back widths to the 777 at 9-abreast and the 767 at 7-abreast - about 18i
69 Post contains links ElbowRoom : I took a look at SeatGuru to see what airlines are doing: http://www.seatguru.com/charts/longhaul_economy.php There's an interesting mix out there: (
70 Post contains images cosmofly : According to Boeing, the 748i has thinner wall and its cabin is 0.1 meter wider (6.1m vs 6m). 748i eco seat can be 17.5 inch instead of the 17.2 befo
71 AADC10 : LH probably has the option to convert to a 777 if the 748i does not work out, a move that would be more likely if no other airline purchases it. True
72 328JET : @ cosmofly 6,1m for the B748I is still far behind 6,58m for the A388... And both should really operate with ten seats in a row...? So, i am still call
73 Stitch : LH is not going to add the 777 to their fleet. They have settled on the A340-600 for that mission. keesje can continue to claim LH is going to cancel
74 Post contains images cosmofly : I guess you would call the A350XWB 8.5 abreast then as it is smaller than the 777
75 Laddie : The OSU appeals to VVIPs who can afford a 747 business jet. It might also appeal to airlines like DLH who have a ultra-first class service. The OSU i
76 cosmofly : Is it cost or insurmountable regulatory issues that prevent OSU from being certified for takeoff/landing?
77 Laddie : It could be certified for takeoff & landing, but then the weight would go up substantially. The OSU is thought of as a luxury item for first clas
78 cosmofly : Thanks for the input . A380 sacrificed cargo for pax capacity. Is true to assume even if OSU adds substantial weight, the seats/weight gained by the
79 Laddie : Think luxury, cosmofly. No first-class passenger who is paying a premium to use the OSU is going to squeeze into a 20" seat. The OSU is a private lou
80 cosmofly : I can fully understand OSU purpose in BBJs. My interest is to use OSU to boost seat counts, thus reducing CASM, so that the 748i can compete more eff
81 pnwtraveler : There is absolutely no way the FAA or other regulating bodies would make the OSU seating an option. Short of making another hump at the back with win
82 Laddie : I hear you, but I am afraid you'll have to look at adding more seats to the main deck and upper deck. The OSU as marketed by Boeing (and Greenpoint T
83 cosmofly : If it is just a matter of cost, I hope Boeing can find the ROI to justify the design of a new OSU certified to add pax capacity.
84 Aesma : The problem is that the OSU is not a real level, it is a suspended mezzanine, I don't see how it could be certified for T/O and landing. If I was such
85 BrouAviation : I'm kind of getting tired of the nonsense talked about the B748i here. It's easy talking when looking at matters afterwards. Which would be plain usel
86 UAL747DEN : Why? If you really believe this you have a lot to learn about how things work in the industry! I don't think so. You are exactly right! I have not be
87 Laddie : I disagree because a replacement cycle for 747-400 passenger airplanes is coming up. The original 744s were delivered in the mid-1990s, so they will
88 Tod : It would not be easy, but it probably could be done. I designed the plumbing for a lav that went into the BA 744 door 5 overhead crewrest.
89 Stitch : I imagine the main appeal for the OSU to 747VIP customers is to use it for staff sleeping and relaxing, leaving the main deck open for the owner and h
90 keesje : If the OSU would be a real good idea, it could have been introduced 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago. It has little to do with the 747-8..
91 pnwtraveler : Yes I know that is possible. But someone was suggesting multiple lavs be moved from the main deck upstairs. I couldn't see that without compromising
92 Tod : The KLM 744 door 4 crewrest built by Flight Structures is as close as anyone has ever gone so far. Tod[Edited 2010-07-28 19:31:47]
93 BMI727 : I think that the same could be said of slimline or lie-flat seats.
94 Post contains images Tod : Not if pax want to stand up in the lavs. I would not recommend it. The space is better used as a crew rest area, its easier to cram crew into a tight
95 airlinereporter : Although a really amazing idea, my guess is we won't see the OSU used in any commercial operations. How many times we we hear about a possible lounge
96 Stitch : As premium cabin seating becomes more comfortable, the desire and need for separate sleeping quarters becomes less and less. First Class seating is no
97 328JET : I think we can just stop the discussion here. There won´t be any use of the OSU in regular service for passengers. If Boeing wants to further increas
98 rangercarp : I am sure this has been discussed before, but why don't they extend the upper deck?
99 Aesma : Drag ? Weight distribution ? Too radical to allow grandfathering ? They in fact extended the upper deck along with the main deck, but it still ends at
100 Laddie : Boeing has presented the OSU idea to airlines for several years now, but no one has bought it. Some VVIPs are interested in it, and Greenpoint Techno
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