Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Southwest: Breakdown Is Now An Act Of God  
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2790 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 22376 times:

Interesting change to the contract of carriage at Southwest, as reported by the Arizona Daily Star http://azstarnet.com/news/local/arti...0-e1ee-57fb-8f68-fe716e9f5bad.html

Fair use: "If there's a God who controls floods and earthquakes, does the deity also have a hand in an airline's mechanical problems?

Apparently so, according to Tucson's most popular airline, which recently added "mechanical difficulties" to the list of acts of God and other events for which the carrier will not be liable if travel is delayed.

Southwest Airlines quietly made the change a few weeks ago, to the puzzlement of some industry analysts.

It appears on page 11 of 32 pages of fine print called a "contract of carriage," which many passengers don't read, but which spells out their recourse in mishaps such as flight interruptions or baggage loss."

[Edited 2010-07-24 16:03:56 by srbmod]

153 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 22347 times:

While I don't know if it is in other carrier contracts of carriage, but I haven't seen too much love from the carriers even if there is a mechanical. I fly Alaska/Horizon a lot and they will only pay if you overnight now. And trying to get a carrier to put you on another one....not their favorite thing to do. So, while it's not great, its the way of the industry. In fact my car got held over by my mechanic and they didn't give me compensation, so why should the airlines?

User currently offlinewexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22195 times:

Is there any sort of legal definition of an "act of God" that airlines must go by or are they free to define it as they wish?

Citing "mechanical difficulties" as one really is taking the piss. Of course sometimes mechanics can fail for no reason but the level of maintanence plays a huge part amongst many other things.



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22196 times:

Yah...that'll quickly get struck down in court whenever someone inevitably ends up suing them over it.

User currently offlineNYC2THEWORLD From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22161 times:

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 1):
While I don't know if it is in other carrier contracts of carriage, but I haven't seen too much love from the carriers even if there is a mechanical. I fly Alaska/Horizon a lot and they will only pay if you overnight now. And trying to get a carrier to put you on another one....not their favorite thing to do. So, while it's not great, its the way of the industry. In fact my car got held over by my mechanic and they didn't give me compensation, so why should the airlines?

Did you pay your mechanic more to take your car at 6AM and return it to you by 9AM? When you start making time commitments and you fail to honor those commitments you have breached your contract and thus the affected party deserves compenstation. People who call for reregulation think that regulation is only going to address the extremely volatite nature of airline's revenue stream. Rest assured passengers will demand if airlines are reregulated that they are held to higher standards of customer service, baggage handling, compenstion due to delays.

This reminds me of a time I was flying EWR-ORD on Continental the morning after a rain storm that resulted in arrival delays the night before. The official reason listed on co.com for the flight delays was "crew rest". The first 2 EWR-ORD flights of the day were delayed and I was booked on the 2nd one. The first flight was delayed to the point it would have arrived at the time the flight I was booked on was supposed to arrive before the delay. I politely asked customer service to put me on standby on first flight. I was told I would have to pay the standby fee. I told them again politely that their website states the flights are not delayed due to weather but due to crew rest issues; something in their control. They refused. I called the OnePass elite line, explained to them the same situation, they originally refused. After explaining to them I could understand if I was at any other airport I would take the delay; however I was at a hub for Continental and knowing the storms the night before they should have called in reserve crews to cover my flight. Customer service then waived the standby fee, and guess what, I got on the flight. I wasn't asking for a confirmed seat, just the chance to get to my destination on time based on something Continental should have expected.

If airlines keep this up, they will get more regulation...(which some on this board are calling for) however, the regulations they get they most defintely will not like.



Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24630 posts, RR: 86
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22062 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah...that'll quickly get struck down in court whenever someone inevitably ends up suing them over it.

  

"Act of God" has very specific legal definitions, most all of which deny any possible human involvement:

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/a/actofgod.aspx

"Act Of God - An event which is caused solely by the effect of nature or natural causes and without any interference by humans whatsoever."

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/act-of-God.html

"Act of God - Inevitable, unpredictable, and unreasonably severe event caused by natural forces without any human interference, and over which an insured party has no control, such as an earthquake, flood, hurricane, lightning, snowstorm. Acts of God are insurable accidents and valid excuses for non-performance of a contract. Also called act of nature. See also force majeure."

http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/act-of-god.htm

"Act Of God

n. act of God is a legal term for those events which are outside of control of humans and for which no one can be held responsible and which cannot be prevented. If a duty, to be performed, is casted by law on a party and its execution is hindered by Act of God, then the party can be excused."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22041 times:

Quoting catiii (Thread starter):
which recently added "mechanical difficulties" to the list of acts of God

I forsee a young MBA soon to be out of a job. That's high school vocabulary fail.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15444 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21920 times:

Quoting NYC2THEWORLD (Reply 4):
If airlines keep this up, they will get more regulation..

Airlines are already probably the most regulated deregulated industry. Hopefully someone will come to their senses and let the free market take care of this. Oddly enough, WN were the ones doing this with regards to baggage fees.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 700 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21848 times:

I have always thought the "Acts of God" disclaimer was humorous, when in fact it should just be labeled as circumstances beyond the control of the airline. It can be argued that a mechanical delay is unforeseen, uncontrollable, and unpredictable by the airline. And I believe that the lawyers who wrote the contract of carriage feel it is the same way. Im actually surprised that SWA didn't already have that in there (maybe they did a reporter for the newspaper actually had a MX delay and found out the hard way??). Maybe SWA is clarifying policies that other airlines enforce under the "not reasonably foreseen" provision.

Quoting NYC2THEWORLD (Reply 4):
This reminds me of a time I was flying EWR-ORD on Continental the morning after a rain storm that resulted in arrival delays the night before. The official reason listed on co.com for the flight delays was "crew rest". The first 2 EWR-ORD flights of the day were delayed and I was booked on the 2nd one. The first flight was delayed to the point it would have arrived at the time the flight I was booked on was supposed to arrive before the delay. I politely asked customer service to put me on standby on first flight. I was told I would have to pay the standby fee. I told them again politely that their website states the flights are not delayed due to weather but due to crew rest issues; something in their control. They refused. I called the OnePass elite line, explained to them the same situation, they originally refused. After explaining to them I could understand if I was at any other airport I would take the delay; however I was at a hub for Continental and knowing the storms the night before they should have called in reserve crews to cover my flight. Customer service then waived the standby fee, and guess what, I got on the flight. I wasn't asking for a confirmed seat, just the chance to get to my destination on time based on something Continental should have expected.

I think COA is going out on a limb with the "crew rest" delay. I would bet, in light of the details you provided, the crew rest was required due to late inbounds caused by the days earlier weather delays. In which case, the delay should have been coded "Weather", the root cause. The lack of reserve crews is the cost of business and the cost of a $99 seat to Chicago. It's acceptable to take the delays 10 days a year rather than pay for more pilots

On the other hand, if you're flight is significantly delayed, there's no reason to not allow you to standby for an earlier flight without paying more. Especially if the earlier flight is leaving around the same time you have planned to go. There's really no added cost to the carrier. This, IMHO, is the biggest problem with the carriers today, the unyielding rules the workforce must adhere to. If you put in place a policy of a standby fee, then allow for waving in the event of irregular operations. A little logic and compassion would go a long way to making you popular with passengers, who may in turn be a little more loyal.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineasuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 21705 times:

In the long run it really doesn't matter.

As long as they are cheap people will continue to fly Southwest. On the rare occasion a flight is cancelled due to a mechanical issue they'll stammer and scream how they refuse to fly Southwest again. But the next time that person needs to purchase a ticket, if Southwest is cheap, they'll book it.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12409 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 21671 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 9):
As long as they are cheap people will continue to fly Southwest.

WN is better than 'just cheap.' They have service most of the legacies have forgotten about. Not to mention they still haul bags, etc.

Quoting fxra (Reply 8):
On the other hand, if you're flight is significantly delayed, there's no reason to not allow you to standby for an earlier flight without paying more.

Doesn't WN already allow this?

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 21581 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
WN is better than 'just cheap.' They have service most of the legacies have forgotten about. Not to mention they still haul bags, etc.

  

Plus they treat their employees as well if not better than most others in the industry. They have the highest paid pilots in the industry, and the most stringent hiring requirements as well, plus you are always guaranteed to get a mainline aircraft and not an RJ. People love working for Southwest, and this happiness is passed on to the customer, and thats why many customers like flying Southwest.


User currently offlineNYC2THEWORLD From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 21544 times:

There is a direct relationship between the amount of preventive maintainance done and mean time beweetn failure. Do the airlines do enough preventive maintainace to prevent a saftely related failure, yes, the statistics prove that without a doubt. However, is their more preventitive maintainance that could be done to prevent a maintainance delay or cancellation?
Possibly; however you now get into the law of diminishing returns. (Basically after a certain point, the extra amount of money and/or time invested in this case preventitive maintainance, the less of an increase in the mean time between failure you get). It would be a great statistical study to determine if airlines are investing the right amount of money to get the maximum mean time between failure of their fleet.

If it is found that the airline is getting the most amount of mean time between failure without suffering from the law of diminishing returns, then, it could be argued that any failure is "an act of god" and therefore should not be compensatable.

However, if it is found that the airline is NOT getting the above, then it could be argued that the airline's maintinance plan, while keeping the flight safe, does show that more could be done to maintain the plane and thus prevent the delay/cancellation. Making it directly controllable by the airline.



Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5428 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 21376 times:

Quoting fxra (Reply 8):
It can be argued that a mechanical delay is unforeseen, uncontrollable, and unpredictable by the airline.

Not very seriously, because there are all kinds of root reasons for mechanical delays, many of them human-caused.

That's like a customer arguing that weather delays are the airline's fault, because of global warming and that airplanes put X amount of CO2 and other gasses into the air, and therefore the airlines should pay.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineskyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 21196 times:

Take a look at the WN contract of carriage:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/coc.pdf

They are not calling mechanical difficulties an act of God. However, they are saying that they are not liable for mechanical difficulties, among many other things. Airlines have historically considered mechanical difficulties as something within their control. This is quite a bold step for WN. See section 9(a)(4) "Limitation of Liability".

When you look at the things WN is not liable for (e.g. the inability to obtain fuel, labor or landing facilities for the flight in question), they are basically saying, "Tough luck. You're on your own," if anything goes wrong. Lack of a flight crew would fall under "inability to obtain labor".

Put this all together. WN does not offer assigned seats, they do not interline, and they are not liable for anything if anything goes wrong. Why do people have such a love affair with that airline?


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20582 times:

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 14):

Put this all together. WN does not offer assigned seats, they do not interline, and they are not liable for anything if anything goes wrong. Why do people have such a love affair with that airline?

Because you aren't nickel and dimed like you are on the other airlines. Because their staff has been consistently professional in their attitudes and corporate culture. Because they honestly care about the well-being of their passengers. Because they've been the rock of airline solvency for the past four decades.

Shall I continue?


User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20470 times:

Well now...if this sticks, it will spread to say.......your F150 pickup with only 3000 miles on it. The trannie seizes up ....opps... an act of God---not covered by warranty.
With AirGreyhounds new policy, we are in uncharted waters here and its going to take "an act of a good law firm" to undo this.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineskyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20412 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 15):
Because their staff has been consistently professional in their attitudes

I would give you a huge argument on that point! Safety definitely takes a back seat to a "fun" image at WN.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20283 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
"Act of God" has very specific legal definitions, most all of which deny any possible human involvement:

...which begs the question of whether at least some mechanical delays have no possible human involvement, doesn't it?

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 14):
Put this all together. WN does not offer assigned seats, they do not interline, and they are not liable for anything if anything goes wrong

Half right, I think.

WN is not contractually liable.

That in no way suggests that they will not voluntarily help passengers out.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24630 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20134 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
WN is not contractually liable.

That in no way suggests that they will not voluntarily help passengers out.

Are you not concerned that a reputable company would attempt to rewrite, quite arbitrarily and unilaterally, the laws pertaining to liability, laws that have stood for some centuries?

Okay, let's say that Southwest is always lovely and will always do the right thing but if this holds and if it is upheld in a court of law it becomes legal precedent.

And what happens then, when the "less lovely" companies get their hands on it?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19987 times:

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 1):
While I don't know if it is in other carrier contracts of carriage, but I haven't seen too much love from the carriers even if there is a mechanical. I fly Alaska/Horizon a lot and they will only pay if you overnight now. And trying to get a carrier to put you on another one....not their favorite thing to do. So, while it's not great, its the way of the industry. In fact my car got held over by my mechanic and they didn't give me compensation, so why should the airlines?

The difference is you own your car. You can take better care of your car so that does not happen. You can also work on it yourself rather then pay someone. When you pay to fly on an airline you are at there mercy. Remember this a lot of people fly today that are middle class. They have enough money to make the trip they planned for, but might not have enough to cover an extra night at a hotel, and then pay whatever other bills they have to pay. Plus, a lot of airports do not let passengers sleep overnight in the terminal. So what is a passenger to do? I am not saying airlines should put people up in a 4 or 5 star hotel, but they should do something when a flight is canceled due to maintenance issues.



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19517 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
Are you not concerned that a reputable company would attempt to rewrite, quite arbitrarily and unilaterally, the laws pertaining to liability, laws that have stood for some centuries?

No because, as you say, they are reputable.

It's always better to under-promise and over-deliver than the other way around. This way, they can still strive to take care of people and if some passengers do not get accommodated, it's not their problem.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 61
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19393 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 17):
I would give you a huge argument on that point! Safety definitely takes a back seat to a "fun" image at WN.

Perhaps on the surface, but not operationally. Having spent time working in Flight Ops as well as the training center, I never saw a shred of evidence that suggested anything but safety is priority #1 among WN employees.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineMCI10 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19369 times:

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 9):

i agree with you 100%.


User currently offlinedadoftyler From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19314 times:

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 17):
I would give you a huge argument on that point! Safety definitely takes a back seat to a "fun" image at WN.

Could not disagree more strongly. You clearly are confusing "stuffy" with "professional." I'd absolutely prefer being in the care of a WN crew in the unlikely event of a problem over any other airline's crew in the skies today.


25 mariner : But - trying again - if it is upheld in law then everyone can do it, and they are not all reputable. mariner
26 frmrCapCadet : A given passenger has no power arguing with an airline. If we want certain rights they need to come as the result of congressional action. That's the
27 SCCutler : Quite right. No airline is more selective in whom they hire than Southwest, and no airline job is more sought-after. Only the best if the best get th
28 UAL747DEN : Well tomorrow morning I will arrive at the airport for my flight on United. I will check my bags in a priority line where they will be tagged as a pr
29 swacle : Yet somehow, with this "poor maintenance" WN has the best safety record of any airline in the world. Anyone with a hint of knowledge can figure out t
30 Flying_727 : I'm pretty sure a change of this magnitude would not have been made by a "young MBA," rather was a decision made by the executive level and the attou
31 Post contains images mayor : You could also argue that said customer is also contributing to global warming. Where does that leave us? These same safety problems perhaps contribu
32 KFlyer : Well perhaps they are referring to mechanical failures beyond their control ? A bird strike for example ?
33 N521NA : I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Only a small minority of the population can afford to travel in first class on every flight, and you
34 N521NA : Ah, so by your logic the other legacy carriers could just as well be cheating, but haven't been caught. I think Southwest's safety records speaks for
35 UAL747DEN : We both know that is not a factual statement, but just to let you try, can you show me some facts backing up your statement? Yes the issue was that W
36 SuperDash : OK...lets try this one. I paid U2 (the band not the airline) to see them in concert at Qwest Field. Bono had back surgery and the concert was cancell
37 Post contains links mariner : Yet, according to this, courts have found that bird strikes do not count as Acts of God: http://www.birdstrikecontrol.com/new...rd-strike-liability-n
38 Post contains images N521NA : In Southwest's 40 year history, it has never had a single accident that has resulted in passenger fatalities. Not sure what's so hard to believe? [Ed
39 jetblast : Qantas has not had a fatal accident since 1951, so I think they have you beat for that 'best in the world' title. Not a SWA passenger, but the child
40 Post contains images Transpac787 : How soon we forget... And before you or anyone snap back with "that didn't kill a passenger" (as if that makes it any less worse), QANTAS has had no
41 N521NA : Well, considering Southwest operates are a far higher number of flights per day, 3300+, than Qantas, I would argue otherwise.[Edited 2010-07-24 23:21
42 Transpac787 : Ahh. So operating more flights per day allows you a Get Out of Jail Free card when it comes to killing a few innocent bystanders here and there??
43 jetblast : This may be true, but if SWA is so confident in their abilities to safely and happily fly passengers, I sincerely doubt they would try and create the
44 LJ : This is the exact reason why we have the EU decided to legislate the rights of air passengers in the EU. Airlines were doing their best to prevent li
45 Post contains links N521NA : The death of the 6-year old in that accident is no doubt unfortunate, and I feel for his family. but I did specify in my post that I was talking abou
46 cainanuk : Most aircraft engineers I have run into consider themselves to be God-like so I can see how a mechanical problem could literally be an Act of God.
47 mariner : Absolutely not. But Qantas isn't the airline trying to re-interpret common law to their own advantage. mariner
48 Post contains images JBo : Because mechanics are created in God's image, duh.
49 FlyASAGuy2005 : What 'service' is that? (yes, you already mentioned free bags) This is all relative here people. Personally, and I travel quite often, I find DL to b
50 jetblast : Correct. You may have noticed how I said 'since 1951.' Those incidents occurred before 1951... Reading comprehension is an amazing thing. Apparently
51 navion1217 : And here I thought part of Southwest's genius was having one fleet type, so to be interchangable?
52 N521NA : Yes, reading comprehension is an amazing thing. I did say passenger fatalities in my previous post, which Transpac 787 ignored, which is why I said i
53 DocLightning : I am going to say this three times to let it sink in. The U.S. airline industry is not a free market. The U.S. airline industry is not a free market.
54 mariner : If you have already read the definitions, all I can do is repeat them, or one of them: mariner
55 Post contains links N521NA : Well if we go by that definition, ok. But the other definition (below) you posted is pretty vague, and it's not unreasonable to say that even with a
56 RyanairGuru : LAW101: ejusdem generis: "If words of particular meaning are followed by general words, the general words are limited to the same kind of particular w
57 mariner : It isn't vague at all, it denies human involvement. A machine is a creation of man, a hurricane is not. How is it bogus? The COC states "acts of God,
58 N521NA : I interpreted the Contract as including Acts of God as just an item under Force Majeure Event, and mechanical difficulties as just a separate item un
59 flybyguy : WN is the last carrier I expected to pull this kind of stunt. As much as I respect the way WN is run its completely outrageous to list mechanical fail
60 wexfordflyer : Bit of a null point here. You are paying far far more than the average WN passenger for your fantastic service (as I have no doubt that it is) so you
61 Post contains links N521NA : If you look at the Contract of Carriage, it does not list mechanical failure as an act of God. This whole issue is just making something out of nothi
62 mariner : It is listed under Force Majeure, together with Acts of God. It is surely possible they (Southwest) don't intend to mean that mechanical difficulties
63 jeffrey1970 : I understand what you are saying. Airlines do post there contract of carriage online, and when you buy your ticket from that airline you agree to the
64 Post contains images par13del : I guess we could also ask if you have facts to support your contention that WN is the most fined airline in FAA history. Sounds like something from C
65 BMI727 : But certain aspects of it are. If enough people get jerked around by an airline policy that makes them not liable for technical delays, they will fin
66 isitsafenow : Some 21 year old know-nothing gate agent working a mechanical delay is going to pull that "act" crap on a lawyer who eats nails for breakfast. You now
67 european742 : AF do a similar thing, when a flight is delayed 45min - 2 hours we give £3.50 vouchers for any reason. If it is 2 hours or more we give £5 if AF is
68 N521NA : I'm not so sure that would be the case. The only obligation an airline has is to get you from point A to B. If there is a technical delay or cancella
69 mayor : But "war" is not under the control of the airline........the mechanical operation of the a/c, is. But it's not the other carriers that are trying to
70 rottenray : Not necessarily a WN fan here, but they still do a good job of getting a paying customer from point "A" to point "B". One may not love their product
71 Post contains links N521NA : But my whole point was that by Mariner's definition of an Act of God, there can be no human involvement and thus war cannot be considered as an Act o
72 isitsafenow : That's the way a law firm would see it. The airplane is a working product. It now does not work(cannot fly you from point A to point B until a part i
73 cjpark : I am not surprized in the least bit. This is the extreme expression of the additude that WN has had since its inception. The additude that they are n
74 N521NA : That would be foolish, as buying a ticket on an airline only guarantees service from point A to point B. Airlines do not guarantee the schedule as pr
75 isitsafenow : If I'm at the counter and refund your money, I just washed my hands of the whole situation and tell you to have a nice day flying someone else and go
76 Cubsrule : What prevents anyone else from changing the contract similarly today? Generally, contracting parties may define terms however they like (not necessar
77 mayor : Here is how DL defines it..................................... "Schedule Changes, Delays & Flight Cancellations Not within Delta’s Control In th
78 F9Animal : I got one! US Airways 1549. Hitting a flock of birds, and losing your engines... Is that an act of god? It creates a mechanical problem if you say, l
79 mariner : That's my point, nothing prevents it. Usually, there have to be two parties who agree to a contract, even to the fine print stuff, and this is a unil
80 MLD9S : Huh.....last I checked, the only airports WN served in the state of Florida were: Orlando International Tampa International Southwest Florida Interna
81 Cubsrule : There are certainly some mechanicals that DL can't control . It is, which is why I'm not a big fan of extraordinarily long contracts of carriage (or
82 Post contains links catiii : Southwest responds: http://www.elliott.org/blog/truthsqu...his-is-a-reporting-error-run-amok/
83 mariner : Again, that is the point. Southwest may never invoke this clause, but do you really trust all airline managers at all airlines to be so benevolently
84 Cubsrule : No, but as of today, that's a hypothetical question - do you really expect that no Delta manager would argue that certain mechanicals fall under thei
85 mariner : I'm sure they would try - but #6 does not specify mechanical difficulties. Southwest is establishing a precedent here. Get it in writing? Southwest h
86 Cubsrule : I guess my point is simply that I don't think it makes much difference. WN spells out the "other" category more than other carriers - but that doesn'
87 mariner : Then you have more faith in the benevolence of some managers than I. mariner
88 Cubsrule : I don't - I just don't know that managers would behave much differently under one than under the other. A benevolent airline manager will assume liab
89 mariner : The managers may not behave differently, but the lawyers might. It is much easier to make a point in a court of law if that issue has already been ad
90 Longhornmaniac : Thanks for that. This is reassuring to know they aren't trying to be unreasonable. Just for anyone who hasn't seen it or won't click on that article,
91 Cubsrule : If that's what they are trying to say, they ought to be clearer.
92 catiii : I do think though that they could have been much clearer about their wording. I don't think anyone would disagree with what their intent is, however
93 Post contains images mariner : It's been part of my problem with it all along: mariner
94 UAL747DEN : Already stated but the airline killed a kid in a car just a few years back, not a passenger but does that really matter? That made me laugh, that was
95 Post contains images par13del : I have seen stories, however none which says that WN is the most fined carrier by the FAA, unless you mean in a single year, but point taken, never s
96 Cubsrule : It depends what service you need, doesn't it? When I fly WN, the lack of change fee is invaluable. No legacy gives me that service.
97 Post contains links rottenray : Greyhound is another people carrier folks love to pick on. Other than that, I'm not responding to a fragment of a quote deliberately removed from its
98 Post contains links UAL747DEN : I didn't say that they were the most fined, I said that they were fined more (as in dollar amount) than any other airline. The most fined statement w
99 CWAFlyer : Don't you think they would have if they had had crews to call out? Why would they delay multiple flights the next day if they had a way to recover fr
100 UAL747DEN : I don't have a problem with them at all. My comment was in response to several people posting that the service you get on WN is better than what you
101 BMI727 : The thing about Southwest though is that it seems that more and more of the higher class travelers are going with them for one reason or another, and
102 Cubsrule : But other airlines - including your employer - typically match WN on advance purchase fares. What drives those passengers to choose WN? ...and, to be
103 catiii : You "seen"? Haha, my thoughts exactly. So, let me get this right. You have purported numerous times in the past to be an executive for UA, and you wo
104 MLD9S : UAL747DEN, you want to bring up Southwest's "safety record?" Fine...let me ask: How many people in the cornfield were killed when your DC-10 crashed
105 Post contains links rottenray : I agree. But I think we're exaggerating the number of "trashy" people flying WN, and glossing down the number who fly other airlines. Also, I know so
106 Post contains images SCCutler : Funny thing... it costs a lot less to maintain aircraft well, than to do the minimum and just "get by." AOG (Aircraft On the Ground) don't make money
107 SSTsomeday : I can't see fine print such as this holding up in court.
108 mayor : Nebulous reporting or not, the term "mechanical difficulties" IS in the list of reasons that, according to WN, they are not liable, right along with
109 mariner : LOL. It was Southwest who felt the need to clarify their opaque prose. mariner
110 SCCutler : Does sound like that, don't it? By the same token, no one cares for being lectured about grand service by someone for whom the service has no cost.
111 SSTsomeday : I respectfully disagree. Once you accumulate the points for a trip, you have paid for goods and services from the airline and their business partners
112 MLD9S : Not in the least. In fact, I am an airline employee and I enjoy the perk of flying in F. I think employees are 100% entitled to sit in F class when i
113 UAL747DEN : Where did I say that I won't fly UA? I love flying on United! If you are talking about the part where I said when I fly with all 4 kids domestically
114 Post contains images mayor : Well, there is this....from ABC News website............................... "While the majority of checked bags reach their destination without incid
115 Cubsrule : I'm not sure that's a fair comparison given that WN doesn't have any regionals. In May, 2010, AA + MQ + OW had about 36,000 reports. DL + 9E + OH + E
116 contrails : I would expect this from AA, but to hear WN saying this is very disappointing. What has happened to them? I don't think this could survive a court cha
117 Cubsrule : Is rolling over debris on the runway and blowing a tire a mechanical breakdown? Is a bird strike that wrecks an engine (or two) a mechanical breakdow
118 mayor : Do you know for sure if those totals I quoted, don't include the regionals? The baggage claims would go thru DL's baggage claim procedures and would
119 Cubsrule : If they are numbers from the DoT - the only body I know of that compiles such numbers - they do not.
120 N521NA : And if those statistics only count domestic reports, and I suspect that's the case, then stating baggage reports in absolute terms is misleading as S
121 Post contains images mayor : Why is that? I thought they were perfect?? I knew someone would come up with that excuse. It's amazing that they have that many reports and yet, don'
122 N521NA : Not an excuse, just saying your post was misleading. No one is perfect and no one was saying they were.
123 UAL747DEN : As I have said over and over, I would fly first no matter who I worked for. Again I just find it very odd how personal you take this. Why does my sit
124 Post contains images mayor : Why is it misleading? It reflects the total reports, no matter how many people they carry. Are they to get a free pass in the customer complaint depa
125 N521NA : Ok, let's take a quick look back at your post. You emphasized the fact (and as you say, it was your emphasis) that Southwest Airlines leads mishandle
126 rottenray : Cutler, "it costs a lot less to maintain aircraft well, than to do the minimum and just get by" is absolutely correct, as you rightly put it an aircra
127 indolikaa : How does one serve the summons on this particular defendant when one sues the airline and its co-conspirators?
128 SCCutler : Ummm... which airline, what co-conspirators, and for what cause of action?
129 GSPSPOT : As WN is to begin serving my home airport next year, I sure hope this means a redoubling of maintenance efforts to prevent these situations in the fir
130 mayor : Well, I was trying to be sarcastic and facetious at the same time and obviously, I failed, miserably.
131 b6a322 : In a statement by Southwest, a spokesperson clearly stated that the "Breakdowns" that the Contract of Carriage refers to are those not aircraft or equ
132 mayor : Then they need to change the wording.......it says "mechanical difficulties" in the latest update.......... "Limitation of Liability. Except to the e
133 indolikaa : That would be, in the order you asked, 1) Southwest Airlines, 2) God, and whatever poor mortal is ultimately fingered for the "act" that caused Joe A
134 ikramerica : I think you can just serve the papers on any officer of your local house of worship. You can choose the denomination and religion.
135 CWAFlyer : Not sure I follow your logic. How is hitting a bird any different than an airplane getting hit by hail or lightning? None of them have anything to do
136 SCCutler : Gotcha. I'm a little bit slow on the up-take today.
137 b6a322 : Exactly. Something to the extent of what I've written below would work : "Limitation of Liability. Except to the extent provided above in this Sectio
138 Cubsrule : A bird strike doesn't affect the mechanical integrity of the airplane? What caused US 1549 to wind up in the Hudson? Was the mechanical integrity of
139 CWAFlyer : I didn't say that a birdstrike doesn't affect the mechanical integrity of an airplane. I think we all know otherwise. 1549's engines did not fail bec
140 Post contains links rottenray : Sorry about that - I missed both. When the blond genes kick in, I do a truly good job of being thick! There is, however weak and wobbly, some legal p
141 CWAFlyer : Good questions. For the most part, anything that is not weather or ATC falls into what is considered controllable or as you said what used to be cons
142 Post contains images par13del : How about the airport baggage belt breaking down before all the bags have passed through to the airline loading area? The airline can delay the fligh
143 SCCutler : Most likely nothing - they assert that, as a governmental entity, they have sovereign immunity from suit, and have no obligation to do a thing.
144 Cubsrule : ...which is my point. Some mechanicals are (in fact) outside the airline's control. Some are not. Let's adjust the bird strike example a bit: aircraf
145 ikramerica : No. That's like saying that if lightening strikes an aircraft and it has trouble landing and the gear collapses, if the mechanics can't get the plane
146 Cubsrule : You seem to be implying, though, that a mechanical delay (under your definition) is ALWAYS the airline's fault, and I don't think that's so. Let's im
147 indolikaa : The irony of all this is the notion that a mechanical difficulty is an Act of God. Southwest is portraying an imperfect action as being the fault of H
148 CWAFlyer : No. Perhaps. But the people at the SOC making the decision to delay or cancel flights aren't going to know that, nor do they care. The plane broke an
149 par13del : In my opinion, what makes a maintenance delay is how an airline deals with it, in the case of a contract of carriage it can never be about cost if yo
150 Cubsrule : But that logic would also apply to many of the problems we agree are "acts of God." WN could have trucks full of fuel at every station to ensure that
151 txagkuwait : When it comes to God Almighty, the great I AM (not to be confused with the IAM), one should never question whether or not WN has a direct pipeline. Th
152 dartland : Newsflash everyone: Southwest edited their CoC just today. New Force Majeure paragraph: Force Majeure Event means any event outside of Carrier’s con
153 Cubsrule : I hate to be a smart aleck, but does that mean that in cities where WN doesn't have enough gates (LAX, STL), they aren't responsible for associated d
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ex Vengaboy 'Pop Star' Is Now An FA (video) posted Mon Apr 21 2008 17:31:34 by Gulfstream650
MDW Is Now An International Airport posted Fri Mar 1 2002 22:30:13 by CcrlR
Is There An Emergency At EWR Now? 4/10 posted Fri Apr 10 2009 15:26:20 by TK787
Runway Of 236/7 Degrees Is Now Rwy 25 posted Fri Jun 29 2007 18:59:59 by FCA767
Is LPL Now An All EZY319 Base? posted Tue Sep 19 2006 13:33:16 by Timetable
Beta Version Of The New "usairways.com" Is Now Out posted Wed May 17 2006 07:23:00 by SonOfACaptain
Is An E-version Of The Jeppesen Text Available? posted Sun Apr 9 2006 21:41:26 by Aak777
MDA Now Officially Part Of US... Mainline That Is posted Thu Aug 18 2005 23:52:21 by SonOfACaptain
Donald Burr Of PplXprs, This Is Where He Is Now. posted Sun Apr 10 2005 01:04:49 by Starlionblue
What Is The Cargo Capability Of An A 340 Like? posted Thu Dec 16 2004 18:14:43 by Mirrodie
Ex Vengaboy 'Pop Star' Is Now An FA (video) posted Mon Apr 21 2008 17:31:34 by Gulfstream650
MDW Is Now An International Airport posted Fri Mar 1 2002 22:30:13 by CcrlR
Is There An Emergency At EWR Now? 4/10 posted Fri Apr 10 2009 15:26:20 by TK787
Runway Of 236/7 Degrees Is Now Rwy 25 posted Fri Jun 29 2007 18:59:59 by FCA767
Is LPL Now An All EZY319 Base? posted Tue Sep 19 2006 13:33:16 by Timetable
Beta Version Of The New "usairways.com" Is Now Out posted Wed May 17 2006 07:23:00 by SonOfACaptain
Is An E-version Of The Jeppesen Text Available? posted Sun Apr 9 2006 21:41:26 by Aak777
MDA Now Officially Part Of US... Mainline That Is posted Thu Aug 18 2005 23:52:21 by SonOfACaptain
Donald Burr Of PplXprs, This Is Where He Is Now. posted Sun Apr 10 2005 01:04:49 by Starlionblue