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HA To The East Coast - Midwest?  
User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8664 times:

Now that we're seeing a gradual economic recovery is it likely we'll see an announcement this year for new service between HNL, the midwest and/or the east coast? Prior to the economic slide HA was seriously considering JFK. And, given they've just added two additional Asia destinations, wouldn't it seem logical for the next expansion to be in the U.S. Trans Pacific connection traffic through HNL is relatively small, but none the less it is probably a consideration, particulary from the midwest and east coast where a stop over might be welcome, especially during the winter months.


Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8632 times:

I already commented on this in another thread, but I'll reiterate my thoughts here.

I don't think that Hawaiian will or should try to become the Emirates of the Pacific. They got where they are and will continue to be successful by being the best at what they do - getting people to and from Hawaii. I expect that the list of places from which people can get to and from Hawaii on HA will expand quite a bit, but that connecting traffic across the Pacific will basically be the icing on the cake. And with more and more nonstop flights to Asia, I would expect that those connections would be more of a factor on flights to SYD and wherever else (MEL, BNE, and AKL might all work) HA might add in that part of the world.

As far as flying to the US mainland goes, as I understand it, the traffic to Hawaii drops off a lot east of the Rockies. Florida and the Caribbean are attractive, closer and cheaper for those people. Flights from points in the Midwest and Eastern US to Hawaii are relatively few and far between, and most of them are from the hubs of the operating airlines and work thanks to a lot of connecting passengers.

HA of course, does not really have the benefit of this. I would be confident that they could make DEN, ORD, JFK, and maybe IAD work from HNL on their own, but I think that most of the other destinations east of the Rockies would be pretty tough without a partner providing feed on the other end.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Perhaps someone can provide the latest delivery dates for the new a/c as well as the 767 fleet-reduction plans -- if that is still going to happen -- so we can see when further expansion is even possible. Of course we know that HNL-HND service will be starting (do we know when yet?), as well as the new S. Korea service to begin in January; OGG-LAS has already been announced too. Anything else anyone knows about that I haven't heard about?

In other words, based on fleet availability, when would HA even be able to start, say HNL-JFK or HNL-DEN?

I agree with BMI' that east of the Rockies (or certainly east of the Mississippi River), Hawaii as a vacation destination is not terribly popular. NYC, however, is generally in the top-five largest markets providing visitors to the State of Hawaii so I would guess JFK to possibly be the next mainland station for Pualani.

bb


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
Perhaps someone can provide the latest delivery dates for the new a/c as well as the 767 fleet-reduction plans -- if that is still going to happen

As far as I know only a few 767s will be retired as A330s are delivered, and many of the 767s are quite young. The A330s are mostly for expansion, and frankly, I would not be a bit surprised if somewhere down the road we see HA flying 787s as well.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
As far as flying to the US mainland goes, as I understand it, the traffic to Hawaii drops off a lot east of the Rockies.

For many areas that is generally correct in my opinion, but the upper midwest has to be an exception. People go to Florida or the Caribbean too, but Hawaii is like a crown jewel of sorts for a vacationer from this area. It's likely not going to happen, but I'd love to see HA fight DL in MSP. The demand has always been there even with expensive fares. And with DL's drawdown of Hawaii, I'm sure there's business available.


User currently offlinedldtw1962 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

But, what flights we do have from DTW the prices are out of this world. That is why the Caribbean and Flordia markets are so hot every year. What it cost to fly Y class to HNL from DTW you can fly F/J class to Flordia or the Caribbean.
So maybe they could make it work????? Just a thought.

Chuck


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

Quoting HNL-Jack (Thread starter):

Service from the East and Midwest would be nice to Hawaii. As a stop over point going to Asia, not going to happen. That is incredibly out of the way. HNL is a good stop-over en-route to the S. Pacific.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 4):
It's likely not going to happen, but I'd love to see HA fight DL in MSP. The demand has always been there even with expensive fares.
Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 5):
But, what flights we do have from DTW the prices are out of this world.

But how much of the demand from MSP and DTW actually from Minneapolis and Detroit? Hawaiian would not have the benefit of passengers connecting from Duluth, Columbus, Buffalo, etc.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8197 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
But how much of the demand from MSP and DTW actually from Minneapolis and Detroit?

Has to be a good amount since many smaller markets that connect to MSP have had ORD and DEN as options.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8182 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 8):
Has to be a good amount since many smaller markets that connect to MSP have had ORD and DEN as options.

Maybe, but (I hate to keep sound like I'm throwing cold water on the idea) how many of those passengers from MSP or DTW are flying on (or in order to get) FF miles? Cracking a strong competing frequent flier base can be tough to do.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
But how much of the demand from MSP and DTW actually from Minneapolis and Detroit? Hawaiian would not have the benefit of passengers connecting from Duluth, Columbus, Buffalo, etc.

Exactly, HA would need the support of a strong O&D market of which JFK is probably the best, ranking in the top five Hawaii markets. CHI (ORD) is the second most likely, but would require some kind of relationship with a connecting carrier. DEN, without a Frontier would be extremely difficult to pull off. DTWl and MSP almost impossible.

One thing to keep in mind in the HVCB visitor numbers. In their surveys flights arriving in Hawaii show passengers departure point as the point of departure for that flight. In other words, If a passenger originates in STL, but connects through LAX, they show as a LAX passenger.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7583 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7864 times:

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 10):
Exactly, HA would need the support of a strong O&D market of which JFK is probably the best, ranking in the top five Hawaii markets. CHI (ORD) is the second most likely, but would require some kind of relationship with a connecting carrier. DEN, without a Frontier would be extremely difficult to pull off. DTWl and MSP almost impossible.

The only market HA could make work East of the Rockies is probably JFK.

ORD-HNL is flown by two airlines. MSP/DTW/DFW/ATL/IAH-HNL are flown by DL, AA, and CO respectively.

The only other decent sized markets are WAS, PHL, and BOS, but they are not worth HA's times based on that alone.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineaaflt1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7818 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
The only other decent sized markets are WAS, PHL, and BOS, but they are not worth HA's times based on that alone

IIRC a few years ago HA applied for and was denied a outside the perimeter slot at DCA as they wanted to do a 1 stop service to HNL with a connection in either LAX or SAN on a 73. Too bad, as it would have been nice.



Where did everybody go?
User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7771 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
As far as I know only a few 767s will be retired as A330s are delivered, and many of the 767s are quite young. The A330s are mostly for expansion, and frankly, I would not be a bit surprised if somewhere down the road we see HA flying 787s as well.

With the exception of the 4 ex-DL 767s that HA owns outright, the main factor in determining which aircraft are retired will be what kind of lease rates HA is able to negotiate. N593HA was supposed to be the first 767 to go at one point even though it's also the youngest plane in the fleet because of this.


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7725 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
I would not be a bit surprised if somewhere down the road we see HA flying 787s as well.

They have ordered 6 X A350.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 10):
HA would need the support of a strong O&D market of which JFK is probably the bes

Hawaii has it's share of European visitors as well. A JFK route timed right could provide connections between HA and European carriers.


User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3657 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7609 times:
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Quoting aaflt1871 (Reply 12):
IIRC a few years ago HA applied for and was denied a outside the perimeter slot at DCA as they wanted to do a 1 stop service to HNL with a connection in either LAX or SAN on a 73. Too bad, as it would have been nice.

That was AQ and was going to route through SNA.

Quoting bohica (Reply 14):

Hawaii has it's share of European visitors as well. A JFK route timed right could provide connections between HA and European carriers.

This is already possible through LAX. You can same day connect both ways on VS to LHR, LH to FRA, and AF to CDG. With KL, you can same day connect to HNL from AMS. VS, AF, and KL are in T2 with HA, which makes the connection even easier. VS also has a FFP partnership with HA allowing each other's pax to earn and burn miles on their flights.


User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1354 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7548 times:

Quoting HNL-Jack (Thread starter):
Now that we're seeing a gradual economic recovery is it likely we'll see an announcement this year for new service between HNL, the midwest and/or the east coast?

The short answer to your question is no, it is very unlikely. Our CEO, Mark Dunkerley, has publicly stated as much in recent interviews. HA has already announced new service to HND, ICN, and OGG-LAS this year, and I would be quite surprised if more new routes are announced this year.
It is my opinion that any future expansion will involve cities in Asia, with TPE, HKG, PVG, PEK, and KIX being amongst the likely candidates.

Aloha,
HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7462 times:

Would it have to be nonstop? Would HA consider operating a 2-3 pronged connecting hub such as:

HNL-SAN-BOS, OGG-SAN-JFK, KOA-SAN-BWI?

(SANFan may now show his full support for my idea  )



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 7386 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
As far as I know only a few 767s will be retired as A330s are delivered, and many of the 767s are quite young. The A330s are mostly for expansion, and frankly, I would not be a bit surprised if somewhere down the road we see HA flying 787s as well.

The A350 is in their plans for the future. 2017 to be exact. The 767 will be flown by HA for a while with the A330. The 767 is to be gradually phased out.
HA IS planning the east coast and some points in the orient.
Source: HA inflight mag last October and Airways mag a couple of months back.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 7247 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 14):
They have ordered 6 X A350
Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 18):
The A350 is in their plans for the future

I know, but I still wouldn't be at all surprised to see them fly 787s down the road.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 6708 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 17):
Would HA consider operating a 2-3 pronged connecting hub such as:
HNL-SAN-BOS, OGG-SAN-JFK, KOA-SAN-BWI? (SANFan may now show his full support for my idea.)

Hey Ozark', very creative and believe me, the idea has flitted through my brain more than once!

Unfortunately, we (or at least I) know it will never happen; LAS as a HA mainland gateway wouldn't shock me a whole lot...

In any case, it is refreshing to see that someone out there actually realizes that SAN exists and I 'preciate that.  

bb


User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 6213 times:
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Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 13):
With the exception of the 4 ex-DL 767s that HA owns outright, the main factor in determining which aircraft are retired will be what kind of lease rates HA is able to negotiate. N593HA was supposed to be the first 767 to go at one point even though it's also the youngest plane in the fleet because of this.

The 67 phase out will be slow, also Hawaiian bought 3 or 4 of the newer models from the lessor.
The leased aircraft without the winglets will be the first to go.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 5817 times:

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 13):
With the exception of the 4 ex-DL 767s that HA owns outright, the main factor in determining which aircraft are retired will be what kind of lease rates HA is able to negotiate.

Non ER aircraft which would otherwise be sitting in the desert. Still trying to figure out why HA wanted these dawgs (other than the "firesale" factor).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
But how much of the demand from MSP and DTW actually from Minneapolis and Detroit? Hawaiian would not have the benefit of passengers connecting from Duluth, Columbus, Buffalo, etc.

A fully integrated codeshare between DL & HA would be beneficial to both carriers. It could provide feed for both carriers at DL's mainland hubs as well as HNL(with interisland and Pacific feed). Maybe an eventual merger or buyout as a wholly owned subsidiary. There may be more logic behind DL's support of HA's HND route bid as well as HA's maintenance/overhaul agreements with DL. Keeping the HA identity for travel to/fr Hawaii may be a plus in some respects.


User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5478 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 22):
Non ER aircraft which would otherwise be sitting in the desert. Still trying to figure out why HA wanted these dawgs (other than the "firesale" factor).

They were cheap, useful for HNL-West Coast flights (freeing up ER planes for South Pacific and Asia flights), and are only used for 1-2 cycles a day (which slows down the need for maintenance.) It's fully possible that HA got its money's worth even if those planes are only around for a few more years.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

FWIW, I would just love to see HA presence in DEN! It is needed!


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 777STL : Having just gotten back from LIH and HNL and after seeing the sheer number of Asian tourists in Hawaii - I would imagine every one of those routes ha
26 BMI727 : That is a good idea, but I'm sure that DL would rather do their own flying not to mention that there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth from
27 hnl-jack : I can't speak to the mechanical issues if there are any, but from a customer standpoint, HA basically brought their interiors up to the 777 standard
28 CV880 : Planes could not accommodate palletized cargo as opposed to the ER versions due to smaller cargo doors. Payload was restricted from West Coast to ATL
29 hnl-jack : The long standing speculation about DL acquiring AS has been debated numerous times in this forum. The fact remains that if any legacy carrier were t
30 CV880 : Agreed on the domestic front, but in the international arena (where HA seems to be heading), the HA premium class is not up to par with even Delta or
31 HAL : That is changing too. HA's management isn't blind to the differences in service expected to/from Japan and other Asian destinations. There are change
32 Superfly : I understand what you meant but wouldn't that be Singapore Airlines? Would have been nice to see Hawaiian colors on the A340 (any series). Good obser
33 CV880 : Why not start with a sure thing like JFK? DL's product from MSP/DTW is the same (and actually better in F) than HA's. The difference is the "Island"
34 Post contains images Superfly : For coach passengers, that's a world of difference right there. Well Hawaii is a vacation destination afterall. United Airlines does a great job capt
35 HAL : My guess (and company rumors) is that JFK is most likely our first east coast destination, followed eventually by either IAD or BWI. HAL
36 CV880 : Yea, sure. UA doesn't come close to HA. I fly all 3 to Hawaii, and UA is no different than DL. Your remarks are not becoming. That's not what I said.
37 BMI727 : For what it's worth, at what point does "island feel" begin to trump things like price, schedule, and frequent flier miles?
38 Superfly : The few times I've priced fares to Hawaii, all the prices seemed to be about the same. So if Hawaiian is charging the same as Delta, the choice is ob
39 hnl-jack : As one who travels frequently between Japan and Hawaii, the HA domestic service compares nicely with the existing Japan competition. Most JAL and ANA
40 BMI727 : Delta doesn't have three class service anymore, and I don't think that UA does to Hawaii.
41 Superfly : United 767, 777 and 747s are in 3-class configuration and they do fly to Honolulu.
42 BMI727 : How often do they fly the three class 767 and 777s? I thought that the majority of Hawaii flights, at least from the US, were on the two class versio
43 hnl-jack : The UA flights from the mainland are two class unless an equipment sub.
44 legacytravel : I am glad this topic came up. I am flying UA to SFO in October and was thinking about going to HNL for a few days. I was going to purchase UA tickets
45 Superfly : Not sure but all of their 747s are 3 class configuration. They're occasionally flown from SFO and ORD. Not sure of the timetables.
46 BMI727 : As far as I know 747s have only been sent to the mainland recently as subs or as extra seasonal lift, like the week between Christmas and New Years I
47 koruman : "Emirates of the Pacific?" It's a nice idea. A Honolulu hub for Europe-Australia/NZ flights actually only entails a journey around 60-90 minutes longe
48 Superfly : United has regular scheduled service to Honolulu on their 747s most of the year. I believe there is one throughout the summer. That is one area where
49 BMI727 : For August 20, SFO-HNL shows 2 777s and 2 767s, all selling two classes. LAX-HNL shows 4 767s and 1 757, and although one of the 767 flights says it
50 Superfly : I guess they must have pulled the 747s recently off that route.
51 Schweigend : Maybe to places like MNL, GUM, and SIN, maybe Vietnam. The 744's ability to serve Australia and NZ from the US west coast pretty much killed HNL as a
52 Superfly : Not a wacky suggestion at all. Didn't TWA have STL-HNL service?
53 Schweigend : According to the old timetables at departedflights.com, they did toward the end: AA/TW timetable effective 2 Jul 01: TW2 -- HNLSTL -- 535p-631a -- 76
54 Post contains links and images ha763 : UA has not had regularly scheduled 747 service to HNL since they replaced the Japan flights with 777s. That was somewhere around 2001/2002. The 747-2
55 CV880 : They've been gone from the route since 2008, IIRC. Probably some upgrades during holiday periods.[Edited 2010-07-30 00:00:59]
56 Superfly : That's just last year so I'd consider that recently. The 747 service this year must all have been subs then.
57 Schweigend : The STL-WN concept again. WN now dominates Lambert. HA connecting with them there--and at LAS, perhaps--could generate a lot of traffic. Heck, maybe H
58 Superfly : Hawaiian and Southwest are both very fun airlines. Sounds like a fun getaway.
59 Schweigend : HA and WN could be great partners--both masters at making profits on low-yielding routes. So long as F-pax don't mind being in WN-coach on the domesti
60 ha763 : About the 744s from last year, it was all subs. The domestic 777As were under going maintenance checks during the time and UA subbed the 744 to cover
61 ABQ747 : I would love to see HA add HNL-ABQ. It's not very much fun having to connect in DEN, PHX, SLC, LAX, or SFO just to get to Hawaii.
62 Post contains images deltal1011man : Can not be done. If Delta buys HA they will have to a) merge opps or b) give HA 50 seaters. DALPA's scope prevents airline with in an airline unless
63 BMI727 : Oddly enough, although it is a long shot, WN would make sense for them as a domestic partner. If that happens, STL might again become a viable destin
64 drerx7 : United used the 744 for the holiday season 2009 on ORD-HNL on a scheduled basis. Any other 744 was a sub. I just came from Hawaii on United, trip repo
65 777fan : BWI would be a great option; I'm guessing it's cheaper to run than IAD but will draw at least some DC-area residents, and you wouldn't have to stare
66 Post contains images Schweigend : Long shot, I agree. But they do seem well-suited, especially since there have been noises about WN starting HI service. HNL-BWI would add further WN
67 HAL : Most of our crews are HNL based. We have a small pilot base in SEA, and a small F/A base in LAX. But that's it for now. I don't think so - at least n
68 777fan : I doubt WN connectivity would be something HA would seek since they'd be unlikely to set up shop in WN's A/B concourses, and instead, would be better
69 drerx7 : Yes it has been done - some of the others can give more specifics but IIRC UA did it from BWI with a DC8.
70 Schweigend : Very good point. A lot of military presence at both ends of that flight. Interesting! I think UA retired their DC8s circa 1993, so that must have bee
71 drerx7 : MDW runways can't handle the 767 regularly and definitely not with any load.
72 HAL : I have to smile, but absolutely not. We can almost always get out of Maui (OGG) to the west coast with the 767, but sometimes it's close. And Maui ha
73 Schweigend : It seems runway length is the limiting factor. Plus ORD and MDW are only about 15mi apart, so people must not mind going to the bigger airport for lo
74 koruman : Some of us thought that about Air Tahiti Nui, but it just didn't work. The problem seems to be that passengers are not well enough educated to tell t
75 BMI727 : Why is that not reasonable? It's a cost benefit analysis. Is it really worth the extra time, stress and money to go all the way to Hawaii when there
76 Schweigend : The Caribbean is nice, but no substitute for the vast Pacific Ocean that surrounds tiny Hawaii in the middle of nowhere. Too bad for them.
77 Schweigend : So what will HA's NYC ad campaigns promoting the new flight be like?
78 777fan : Moreover, I'm not sure MDW's taxiways and tarmacs can accomodate the extra wingspan. A quick look indicates MDW's most active 4/22L and 13/31C can ac
79 drerx7 : And I think that it is cancelled for good. If I am wrong about that I'm sure a.netters will correct me.
80 BMI727 : That vastness just isn't worth the time trouble or money for a lot of people.
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