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Lufthansa MD-11 Crash Landed At RUH  
User currently offlinesv777 From Saudi Arabia, joined Apr 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 91356 times:

Just received information that Lufthansa MD-11 just crash landed at RUH, aircraft caught fire and split-ed in 2 half, crew reported to be safe.

have no additional info at the moment.

[Edited 2010-07-27 02:39:14]

266 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineGlobeex From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 747 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 91524 times:

Hm, again an MD11. Hope it turns out true that the crew is safe.

Whatever people say, personally I think the use of MD11 will eventually have to be evaluated. To much happening with this type.
1. It's not like there are 1000s of MD11 flying around. The ratio of accidents to planes flying is incredbile high.
2. especially if you look at which carriers are flying the MD11. Its not like airlines from underdeveloped countries are operating this model, but carriers with excellent trained pilots and still accidents on landing are reoccuring events with the MD11.

.... but lets see some more infos.

[Edited 2010-07-27 02:38:21]

As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 15150 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 91381 times:

Very sorry to hear this, but am glad to hear the crew is reported to be safe.

I'm sure a MD11 flame fest will follow, and I must say I really have my doubts about the aircraft.

Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinezainmax From Pakistan, joined Jul 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 91219 times:

cause of crash ?
How many fatalities ?

User currently offlineGlobeex From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 747 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 91133 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
I must say I really have my doubts about the aircraft.

So do I (as mentioned before).
If you compare it to the A340-300 of which a similar number of frames was (and is about the same age, similar time of development) produced and only one write-off (the AF in Toronto) which was due to bad weather and some mistakes by the pilots and compare this to 7 total write-offs (maybe 8 now) of the MD11.

As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineLionel From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 91016 times:

Quoting zainmax (Reply 3):

Cause of crash probably unknown as it happend a few minutes ago.
It is being reported that the crew is safe. No pax as the plane is (was) a freighter.

User currently offlinezainmax From Pakistan, joined Jul 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90973 times:

Any photos of the crash site ?

User currently offlineLionel From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90865 times:

Quoting zainmax (Reply 6):

It just happend a few minutes ago! You can be sure pictures will be posted as soon something is available. You just need to be a little patient.

User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90879 times:

Quoting zainmax (Reply 3):
How many fatalities ?

The MD11 is only operated by Lufthansa Cargo, they have no pax MD11's. So, if the crew is ok, there are likely no fatalities. Unless of course if someone on the ground came in their way, or if they did have one or a few 'passengers'.

I wish WILCO737 could return to the forum! I really miss your posts!

User currently offlinezainmax From Pakistan, joined Jul 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90769 times:

Thanks GOD crew is safe, weather of RUH is reported clear with partly cloudy.
Details awaited.

User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 7451 posts, RR: 77
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90783 times:

Quoting EBGARN (Reply 8):
I wish WILCO737 could return to the forum! I really miss your posts!

Before that wish, my I'm hoping that he's not operating that flight!!!!!!!

When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90772 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Any source about this incident?

El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineGLAGAZ From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2004, 1988 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90576 times:

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 11):
Any source about this incident?

Yeh theres a few stories appearing. Try a google news search. I can only find ones in French so far.


Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
User currently offlineMYT332 From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 9119 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90717 times:



That would make it LH8460 from FRA which was scheduled at 0920L . It was then meant to go on to SHJ at 1050L and then further on to HKG. If all that is correct then according to Acars that would make it D-ALCQ.

ACARS mode: 1 Aircraft reg: D-ALCQ [McDonnell Douglas MD11]
Message label: ** Block id: @ Msg no: 6e4f
Flight id: LH8460 [FRA-RUH-SHJ-HKG] [Lufthansa]
Message content:-
SBS-1 Callsign: GEC8460
----------------------------------------------------------[ 27/07/2010 05:51 ]-

This is just guess work though.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Kondziela

One Life, Live it.
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 7451 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 90375 times:

Weather in Riyadh...
OERK 270900Z 32014KT CAVOK 40/05 Q1006 NOSIG

Nothing in the NOTAMs yet about runway closures... except the one regarding routing maintenance...
A0703/10 NOTAMN
Q) OEJD/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/2457N04642E005
A) OERK B) 1007240300 C) 1008051400
CREATED: 19 Jul 2010 06:54:00

Flightglobal has it as an unconfirmed at the moment... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-reportedly-crashes-at-riyadh.html

[Edited 2010-07-27 03:13:17]

When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 11494 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89986 times:

I´m shocked to hear this and hope that what you write, that the crew is safe, is indeed true.

Another landing accident for the most unsafe modern aircarft type must now lead to serious investigation into the type itself. Its beyond the point of the acceptable now. We are no longer living in the 60s or 70s were such accident rates were normal.

Compare the MD-11 safety statistics with the 747-400 of the same age and 3 1/2 times more frames built, the A340 of similar age and almost double production number, or the slightly younger 777 with much more aircraft built its easy to see the MD-11 is indeed a dangerous aircraft, the only modern type deserving that bad verdict.

MD-11: 8 crashed out of 200
A340: 3 crashed out of ca. 390
777: 1 crashed out of 800+
744: 3 crashed out of almost 700

To be clear: the MD-11 accident rate is much closer to the old Boeing 727 than to its modern rivals!

User currently offlinedalce From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2007, 1977 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89812 times:

Owww, this is bad news!!
I hope the crew is ok. I'll cross my fingers for it!

ps. why can 't Wilco737 post anymore? Missed it probably.

Joost (D-ALCE)

flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 11494 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89687 times:

Quoting MYT332 (Reply 13):

Thats one of the old Alitalia planes. Didnt another of LHs ex-Alitalia MD-11Fs suffer a very heavy landing last year which required a large repair? I guess this accelerates the retirement of LHs MD-11s considerably.

User currently offlinedalce From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2007, 1977 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89543 times:

I have hear it was D-ALCD involved, which is a factory built MD11F delivered new to LH Cargo.
This is also not confirmed yet.

flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1427 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89409 times:

Quoting na (Reply 17):
Didnt another of LHs ex-Alitalia MD-11Fs suffer a very heavy landing last year which required a large repair?

Yeap, D-ALCO in MEX apparently, some interesting posts on other forums about that heavy landing and about the MD-11 in general from a few MD-11 pilots, would make me think twice about flying in one I must be honest!

Hope this one turns out ok for the crew at least.


Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 7451 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89293 times:

It is now confirmed... *sigh*

I hope it is not Wilco!!!!!

When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineHBIHLtoEZE From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 282 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89088 times:

These accidents were the seven hull losses before today's accident...

31-JUL-1997 MD-11F N611FE FedEx 0 Newark Inter...
02-SEP-1998 MD-11 HB-IWF Swissair 229 near Peggy’s Cove...
15-APR-1999 MD-11 HL7373 Korean Air 3+ 5 near Shanghai-Hon...
22-AUG-1999 MD-11 B-150 China Airlines 3 Hong Kong-Ch...
17-OCT-1999 MD-11F N581FE Federal Express 0 Subic Bay In...
23-MAR-2009 MD-11F N526FE FedEx 2 Tokyo-Narita...
28-NOV-2009 MD-11F Z-BAV Avient Aviation 3 Shanghai-Pud...

Quoting na (Reply 15):
To be clear: the MD-11 accident rate is much closer to the old Boeing 727 than to its modern rivals!

well, if one considers the MD-11's predecessor, the DC-10 it is getting even worse - out of 446 examples built 30 (!) were written off in accidents.

If there is a positive thing about the MD-11s' accidents then the fact that there were, even though too many, relatively few fatalities (five crashes being with freighters though). The crass exception being the SR crash of course...

It is only three weeks since I pictured D-ALCQ:


May the inquiry into the accident prevent others...


[Edited 2010-07-27 03:22:21]

[Edited 2010-07-27 03:25:13]

Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
User currently offlinewolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 512 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 89241 times:

First pictures


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 88881 times:

And again a MD11 crashed during the landing.


[Edited 2010-07-27 03:23:51]

Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineivo From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks ago) and read 88949 times:

In english:

25 Post contains links BlueShamu330s : Picture on Al Arabia http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/07/27/114965.html
26 Post contains links Ronaldo747 : According to Financial Times Deutschland, the crew is taken to hospital. http://www.ftd.de/politik/internatio...-in-riad-abgestuerzt/50149316.html (ge
27 UAL777UK : I am with all the doubters about the MD-11, this aircraft should be grounded, there are too many accidents with this model, lets not even get started
28 na : cockpit area looks somewhat "ok". cnn just reported that too.
29 VC10er : Did airlines like Varig, finnar and others make corrections to the smoke problem of Swissair?
30 Post contains images scouseflyer : The thing that is lacking in those figures (but I suspect isn't required) is the utilisation of those birds, with many of the DC10/MD11s that were bu
31 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Some people should be a bit more patient before calling for a grounding. Do you already know the cause? Of course not. PH
32 na : Lets remember Concorde´s license was revoked after just one crash. So, yes, thinking about it I´m with you here, that should be contemplated, and i
33 flyabr : What i find interesting is that there were no hull losses for about the first 8 years of the md-11's existence. Then a rash of problems in the late 90
34 dalce : Indeed, why not ground all planes. After all they all have wings which could fall off.........
35 MEA-707 : The Swissair crash was caused by faulty and not properly tested and certified In flight entertainment systems which got overheated. KLM is now the on
36 na : Lower than LHs 744 utilization I can tell you.
37 PlaneHunter : Why should it be easier? The cargo carriers need their freighters for their daily operations just like pax airlines need their pax aircraft. It's abs
38 oldeuropean : A grounding would be a blow for LH Cargo, UPS, FEDEX and some others.
39 mandala499 : A0722/10 NOTAMR A0703/10 Q) OEJD/QMRXX/IV/NBO/A /000/999/2457N04642E005 A) OERK B) 1007271033 C) 1007272130 E) PRIMARY RWY 15L/33R NOW OPEN,SECONDARY
40 airbuseric : Grounding is a bit too much to do at this moment. But, I understand the feelings. The MD-11s are too much in serious incidents and even the several ac
41 Flying Belgian : The problem is that despite its older design, the M11F can't really be replaced by any other current types available. Hence the "still" high values o
42 tharanga : Hopefully the crew is not very injured. In this case, what happens to the cargo? Will any of it ever be delivered, or is it required to be kept for th
43 JohnClipper : Before rushing to judgement, some of these were not the aircraft design fault. HB-IWF - in flight entertainement B-150 - crew landing during a typhoo
44 flyabr : One interesting thing about the pictures is that it doesn't appear the plane flipped over like has been the "norm"...
45 flyingAY : Please refresh my memory, when was the last time an LH plane was written off? I think quite a long time ago...
46 Post contains links oldeuropean : 1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_2904
47 SEPilot : As one of the prime MD-11 bashers on this forum I will not repeat what I have said before; I will only reiterate my belief that the main problem with
48 Eightball : This is quite an unfortunate accident, and I'm glad to hear that the crew are safe. RUH is known to have some significant crosswinds from time to time
49 dalce : and others do love the type. This is emotion and based on personal experience. I know that the MD11 is not a easy-teaser, but a bitch seems a bit ext
50 na : I think its legitimate to talk about it when its about a certain type which an appallingly worse than average accident rate. I´m not asking to do it
51 Eightball : This article from Al Arabiya has just been updated with a clearer photo of the MD-11F, broken in half. Quite a sad sight.
52 na : True, partly. The 777F is far more expensive and unaffordable to many MD11F operators. The A332F a bit to small and also doesnt come for pennies. Aff
53 PlaneHunter : It doesn't depend on the number of crashes, but only the causes. PH
54 PanHAM : LHCargo likely would have made that decison some time ago if they had certainty over the night curfew at FRA. They are in a difficult position, if cou
55 sv777 : 2 crew members were on board (taken to hospital in stable condition). crew reported fire on board aircraft (cargo hold) before landing and declared em
56 Post contains links Trijetsonly : http://twitpic.com/2941pd this is a bad quality picture of the accident
57 columba : I believe that LH Cargo will phase out their MD 11 sooner now then originally planned.
58 Navigator : I agree... It seems strange that the MD-11 is involved in so many landing accidents while being operated by well trained pilots. How about the MD-11
59 LH648 : Hope it was not Wilco. And hope crew will be OK. p.s. Why Wilco cannot post here anymore?
60 mandala499 : Well, weather from time of accident: No significant crosswind at the time... otherwise, it could have been worse...
61 bottie : I think it's a bit early to make such statements. What if the cause has nothing to do with the aircraft(-type), but there was something in the cargo-
62 na : Seems you dont get what Im trying to say. Arent there enough accidents, almost accidents and heavy landings to confirm the MD11 is "dangerous" at low
63 SEPilot : In a word, yes. It has just about the highest wing loading of any airliner; its CG range is farther aft than any other airliner, making its natural s
64 fd728 : Hoping the injured crew gets back on its feet soon! Looks like the storage of the 2 LH MD11Fs could end sooner than planned with the entire fleet reac
65 Post contains links and images LH7879 : Here is a better pic from TV. found it on http://twitpic.com/2941pd
66 AA737-823 : You guys are appalling. No one has taken even a moment to consider that this event could have been caused by CARGO FIRE. No, no, no, not here on a.net
67 Trijetsonly : Why does everybody say that it is an MD-11 fault? From what I've heard from local witnesses and what I've seen from the pictures it seems to be an eme
68 olgag2011 : its always sad to hear of a plane crash,im so glad the pilots are safe,the md11 is a beautiful bird and lets not jump into conclusions that the plane
69 dalce : Reports are that plane declared emergency due to smoke / fire in the cargohold. Can you then still call it a landing incident, comparable with the ot
70 Post contains images LHPII : actually AF had another write-off in nineties........an AF A340 parked at maintenance base at CDG went into flames. not all of them crashed, as menti
71 SEPilot : Quite true. On the other hand, a plane with better low speed handling might have made an emergency landing without crashing; but you are quite correc
72 kaitak : Frankly, no; was there any report of smoke coming from the aircraft before landing. The reports so far speak of a hard landing followed by the aircra
73 KFlyer : Well, no confirmation of the flight details except the ACARS yet ? I'm having a hard time accessing AvHerald.com . And I sincerely hope it wasn't WILC
74 slz396 : According to FI, Lufthansa Cargo confirmed the aircraft suffered a "hard landing" and "broke into two pieces", so if true this is definitely another l
75 lh526 : "Another landing incident" ... Not true! Question is, what CAUSED the "hard landing" and subsequent brakeup.[Edited 2010-07-27 04:46:06]
76 PanHAM : As an airfreight man knowing how DGR is handled at LH I doubt that cargo is a reason for this crash. The picture can be misleading, it may well be the
77 dalce : I know the DGR handling standard at LH rather well, and yes they are very safe. But what comes to mind is that it could also be 'hidden dangerous goo
78 Post contains links and images mandala499 : The cargo fire is said to have been reported by the flight crew... within the 1st 24hrs, it's normal for these things to be confused... I can't recall
79 PlaneHunter : I'm not a flight safety expert to comment on this. But probably you are such an expert? My point has been from the very beginning that no conclusions
80 Robffm2 : So, it seems that the type plane might not be the most important factor in this case.
81 aerdingus : Thanks for the pic, very sad to see. Glad the crew are ok.
82 Ltbewr : Hopefully nobody is injured or has been killed in this crash, that is the most important thing. We still need to have at least a prelimiary investigat
83 Burkhard : Sharing this reflex, we should be patient. If it was a cargo fire, then it is a different thing than an aircraft well maintained landing in clear smo
84 tharanga : After a whole thread of overstatement and speculation, it is nice to finally read an understatement. If there's any chance the cargo was involved, I
85 lh526 : Guys, please keep speculations at the door, DON'T jump to early conclusions, stick to the facts and please don't open fire on other users. I had to de
86 Navigator : There is no way we can tell if those reports you are referring to are indeed correct. I´m just saying what I´m thinking about the MD-11 considering
87 ImperialEagle : Well, the MSNBC report (see Reply#20) said "plane was seen to be billowing smoke as it approached to land". If so, then some flammable cargo and/or a
88 Post contains links PanHAM : I know that very well and that is why I have trained my people - when I was still at ops- to always question doubtful shippers declaration. Cargo mus
89 Post contains links GBan : He obviously does not want to, you can look up his last post in this thread to understand why: LH Cargo MD-11 Hard Landing In Mexico City (by Luftfah
90 Post contains links Burkhard : www.lhcargo.de isn't reachable now even from very near, but that is their smallest concern I'm sure.
91 LH648 : I hope at least he can post here that he is OK.
92 lh526 : Let's hope WILCO737 wasn't on the controls and he is allright!
93 RJ111 : I've heard the MD-11 can be unstable on landing and that it's pitch attitude can be affected a lot by small thrust changes - meaning it's hard to flar
94 dalce : Probably not, since the username Wilco737 does not exist anymore with airliners.net Nevertheless I hope he's allright.
95 United_fan : To be fair,you really can't compare a 'modern',glass cockpit Md-11 to an old-school 727. Thankfully nobody was killed . I wonder if the plane landed
96 Burkhard : No, it didn't. Completely different story, reports up to now are they had fire on board, declared an emergency and made it to the runway where the ai
97 Post contains links LH648 : He still with us : ) http://www.airliners.net/profile/wilco737
98 na : I agree to one point; that if a modern glass cockpit airliner has a appalling accident rate similar to an oldie like the 727 its even worse. Btw, has
99 KFlyer : As far as I'm aware, no other media except mainstream non-aviation Arabian media have reported this smoke. I too believe it is not fair to jump into c
100 Navigator : We do not really know if it had a landing performance related problem like in earlier MD-11 accidents or not, it is too early to tell. There could po
101 Post contains links na : Best photo so far: http://avherald.com/h?article=42edca16&opt=0 Apparently D-ALCQ, formerly I-DUPB with Alitalia.
102 Burkhard : I answered to the question "I wonder if the plane landed like the FX one in Japan" and there we can exclude much similarity we agree.
103 RJ111 : Asides from the declared fire it was supposedly an otherwise normal landing, though that is just a rumour from another forum.
104 Post contains images A388 : I indeed hope Wilco is not involved in this incident I hope the cause of this incident will be determined soon so it can be avoided later. Wilco, we h
105 seabosdca : This was my first thought too as soon as I read the aircraft was smoking before landing. We'll see what the investigation reveals, but if the aircraf
106 sydaircargo : Statement send out by LH cargo to Customers : According to the latest reports, a Lufthansa Cargo MD-11 freighter crashed this morning at 11.38 a.m. (l
107 airproxx : It's quiet funny to see everybody bashing the MD11 as soon as an incident/accident occurs involving this type of acft. May I remind you all guys that
108 RJ111 : ...well no hard/unstable touchdown or anything. Anyway, how can the plane catch fire if it was already on fire?!
109 airbuseric : Not only landing,... every stage of flight with a fire on board is tricky of course. True it's personal by many people. From my own experience from w
110 Post contains links Owleye : Yeah indeed, glad they made it, that's a big relief. I'm afraid all cargo is lost... D-ALCQ still smouldering (Photo: AFP/Al Riyadh News): http://avh
111 iliribdl : Still no information about the crew?? Praying that it wasn't Phil.
112 trystero : That would be a nice change.
113 peterjohns : Seeing the last photograph, it seems that the reverser is open. That accounts for,at least initially, a normal landing, rather than a "crash".
114 na : Good news among the bad: According to spiegel.de the crew left the aircraft without outside help and LH already has had telephone contact with them.
115 AirTran737 : I love how the haters automatically blame the MD-11 for this crash. It could have been metal fatigue due to the severe heat of an on board fire, but s
116 iliribdl : Good news indeed.
117 Post contains links ariis : Wasn't this posted already? Many pictures of the site: http://www.alriyadh.com/2010/07/27/article547329.html EDIT: Sorry, have just realized that the
118 JBirdAV8r : Minor nit. Fire doesn't cause "metal fatigue"--it causes the structure to deform and/or "melt." The worst thing that can happen to me aboard an aircr
119 Post contains links and images KFlyer : Since Avherald.com does not allow hotlinking of images, here's the image already posted by one of the users. Sorry I can't identify this one's copyrig
120 SEPilot : Why not? 727's have been heavily used in recent years for cargo (until relatively recently they were the mainstays of both FedEx and UPS) with just a
121 Robffm2 : I believe it was this kind of comment that made Phil leave: [QUOTE] Hello everybody, this thread was brought to my attention and initially I decided
122 jpiddink : First of all, I am relieved that according to reports, both pilots seem to have survived with only mild injuries (and probably a serious headache). Th
123 frat : I think the damage on the upper part of the plane was caused by the fire.
124 oldeuropean : Phil leaved this quote for the other incident. This is no comment to the current event.
125 SEPilot : I am quite sure that no aircraft could stay in the air looking anything close to this. I strongly suspect that if the fire had broken through the fus
126 slz396 : Does anybody know if it is still on a runway/taxiway or did it slid off the concrete surface into the dust? It's hard to tell from the pictures, but i
127 na : First I am not a MD-11 "hater". Actually I cant see where anybody blamed the MD-11 expicitly for THIS crash. I for myself have only said its yet anot
128 EBGARN : Looking at the image here: One can see that the fuselage was a lot more intact right after the crash.
129 Woof : Isn't that a bit like saying "apart from being stone cold dead, he appeared to be in very good health" ?
130 Navigator : To continue speculation without any ambition to come out with any truth and still without all facts on the table I believe this was a very hard landin
131 trystero : Based on what information?
132 HiJazzey : From what I can see from the pictures: - The plane veered off the runway and settled to the left of the runway, between it and the taxiway. - The main
133 Post contains links MorcegoA330 : The link below is a video from BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10772817 Cheers.
134 TJCAB : Just because an airline is from an "underdeveloped country" doesn't mean that their pilots are poorly trained. Statistics are great, however, just be
135 Navigator : Reports about fire before landing seem to come from non aviation related sources when I scan through newspaper reports on the net. Such reports are v
136 Post contains images KFlyer : This is perhaps the best image so far Copyright AlRiyadh, via Flight Global
137 Braniff747SP : My God... Not a pretty sight. I hope Phil (Wilco737) was not operating that flight... Hear, Hear... He left last year after the last LH M11 crash afte
138 JBirdAV8r : My slightly-informed opinion only, but the state of the aircraft posted in your picture would seem to support a "cargo fire" theory. I base that on t
139 XaraB : Was Riyadh its intended destination, or did it land there because of an emergency declaration?
140 GBan : Riyadh was the intended destination.
141 worldliner : I think this will finish of the MD-11
142 AustrianZRH : Plus, if you look at the development of the airframe destruction from post 65 to posts 119 and 137, one can see how the top of the fuselage is destro
143 Flying Belgian : Saudi Authorities have reportedly disclosed that the PIC reported a cargo fire to the ATC prior to the landing. Very likely when you look at the pictu
144 Post contains images F9Animal : I was not aware of that, and it is unfortunate that this happened. I too hope that WILCO737 is okay. Hey WILCO, if you see these posts, could you jus
145 PanHAM : The routing was FRA/RUH/SHJ/HKG, no diversion. From the picture a cargo fire is certainly a logical explanation. If that was so, the crew had double l
146 aa43e : Why is there so much over reaction? Yes the MD-11 has had some incidents on landing but since when do rational people instigate before we investigate?
147 migair54 : How many md-11 of LH cargo still around?? I love to see them landing in NBO when I´m there.... it is one of my favorites...... Hope the crew is well.
148 Post contains links Lufthansa411 : Seems that an airport official has commented on things to Reuters: Quote: An airport official told Reuters the plane veered off a runway on landing: "
149 airproxx : Nothing but the fact that, in this particular case, you don't know the truth, and actually, nobody does....
150 slz396 : It's because the Boeing MD-11 is notorious for landing accidents, as numerous posters have already pointed out by simply listing the history of landi
151 na : What? Once again, The figures I gave are the truth. And about the possible reason of this latest crash I didnt talk at all. In all fairness, its a Mc
152 Navigator : OK there goes my theory that this information was false...
153 airproxx : Too easy to make short cuts between this crash and the MD11 airworthiness. Sorry but that's what you did. So don't even talk at all.
154 Post contains images KFlyer : Sure the MD-11's safety record is not perfect and I too agree that there appears to be something wrong with the model ( despite being a tri engine fan
155 413X3 : I'm glad it's only the media, as reported by honest and down to earth a.netters in countless previous topics, that jumps to conclusions early on and f
156 Post contains links KFlyer : Latest news from http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...f-md-11-crash-remains-unclear.html * 73,200hr 10,073 cycles * Last C check 22 June, Last A che
157 Post contains images gipsy : First of all speedy recovery to the Pilots! Is someone here that flies a MD11 and want's to say something about it's landing characteristics and handl
158 Navigator : This is quoted from FlightglobaL. "Lufthansa Cargo says the aircraft suffered a "hard landing" and "broke into two pieces" but adds that the pilots ar
159 slz396 : Indeed. but you will find pictures of the MD-11 on this very site also when looking for them under BOEING, so there's nothing wrong with using its la
160 727forever : I also find it very interesting that the "rash" of accidents on landing with the MD-11 have been with cargo operators. I know that when I flew cargo t
161 na : I was talking about the type´s airwworthiness AT the occasion of this crash. When else should I do so? I am a bit astonished about some here who wan
162 Post contains images tom355uk : Conflicting reports less than 8 hours after the accident? What is the world coming to? On a serious note, I for one have had concerns about the MD11
163 slz396 : Indeed, IF this crash is linked to a cargo fire, there's really no need in using this to clear the Boeing MD-11 of any faults... In the end, it's ano
164 baw716 : The MD-11 has a rather nasty tendency to bounce on landing, especially in crosswinds or in HGW landings or both. I've flown on it enough and when flyi
165 jreuschl : Maybe the pilots should be commended for being able to land it and survive, considering that other MD-11 tricky landings have resulted in flipped airc
166 Post contains images mayor : Well, looking at this photo published in the Chicago Tribune, I don't think there's a lot of cargo left to deliver.
167 Navigator : Good that you put the records straight but where are those multiple sources saying they declared emergency? I have noticed one such source. And you t
168 Post contains links trystero : Cocerning the MD-1 landing, her's something from the MEX hard landing Quoting Md88Captain (Reply 42) on LH Cargo MD-11 Hard Landing In Mexico City Thr
169 Post contains links ursh : This link will show you the badly damaged MD11. Note that the thrust reverser where active deployed http://www.blick.ch/home/web-tv?firstProjectID=174
170 YULWinterSkies : Yep. Well said. Aircraft would have been a 777F (God forbid), we may be reading different specualtion ideas... That one was a -200. Yet it was a grou
171 gipsy : Thanks for the insight...sounds like a sweatening job to get it down...
172 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : I wouldn't necessarily equate Microsoft Flight Simulator experience with the real handling characteristics of an MD-11. Sorry. Given your posting his
173 Post contains links and images tom355uk : http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42edca16&opt=0 http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/07/27/114965.html The MD11 may have a less than admirable
174 Post contains images gipsy : Ah allright I thought more about real experience...I remember reading the trip report of a flight with Bimans DC-10 and the pilot said when asked abo
175 UALWN : Well, according to the Boeing web site (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/md-11family) , "the MD-11 was produced in Long Beach, California, at the Dou
176 kaitak : The TLS incident was the fault of the engineering staff who were in the cockpit; there were no pilots involved; the engines were pushed to a high pow
177 osetka : This accident does not speacifically mean it was due to the aircraft, and how it is unsafe. Freight could of caught fire which had caused this acciden
178 kaitak : No, they haven't!
179 Navigator : Well that´s two news agencies probably citing the same source. So where are those multiple sources? And also don´t you think it is pretty logical t
180 Post contains images XaraB : I can't remember having read this earlier in the thread, but could it be possible that a main deck cargo fire weakened the fuselage enough to make it
181 Post contains links EBGARN : I started thinking the same thing. Again looking at this pic: http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/07/27/114965.html ...the damage seems to be the
182 Navigator : Well it is probably possible but it seems highly unlikely that it would hold together just up to landing and then break. That´s why I would like to
183 Post contains images Fly2HMO : I was expecting worse, but it definitely looks like the crew should be fine, if anything they may have some bruises. You're asking too much for the ar
184 zeke : Below is some of my personal observations. The report linked in reply 20 stated With an engine shut down, it is common to land at a reduced flap sett
185 XaraB : Pardon my lack of knowledge, but will reversers deploy on a shut off engine? Both the no. 1 and 2 engines have deployed reversers in some of the link
186 kaitak : Very interesting post, Zeke - thanks for sharing! This is exactly what I was wondering, when I said: ... although you phrased it better than I did!
187 RJ111 : Why? Landing is strenuous on the aircraft, which is why MLW is often so low compared to MTOW. Seems very viable to me. Dunno why people are getting o
188 mayor : After reading of the difficulty in landing the MD-11, I can only imagine what a handful it was for the DL pilots who flew it into HKG (Kai Tak) in the
189 sv777 : Riyadh, July 27, 2010, SPA -- A German cargo plane caught fire as it was landing today morning at King Khalid International Airport in Riyadh. In a s
190 MD11Engineer : On the pictures it doesn´t look as if the fuel tanks caught fire. To me it looks more as if some maindeck cargo caught fire and, by melting through t
191 Post contains links and images zeke : No, and it will not deploy if it was locked out prior to flight, not selected by the crew. It will also be stowed if selected by the crew after landi
192 SEPilot : The design was MD's; Boeing merely built the ones that had been sold by MD prior to the merger. I don't think they sold any after the merger, but I c
193 alwaysontherun : Please enlighten me………….I think you are WRONG!!! ###"I´m always on the Run"###
194 TheSonntag : Both 777 and A340 were close, though... But it cannot be denied the MD11 has by far the worst safety record of all widebodies.
195 Post contains images fca767 : ANTSB hehe
196 Navigator : This is the same report we have seen all the time. It is based on this statement almost everybody believes the fire started before touchdown. However
197 MD11Engineer : The reversers on the MD-11 CF-6, as Lufthansa´s, are operated pneumatically. It is quite possibly that the cargo fire destroyed the electrical contr
198 bonusonus : Both aircraft involved in that incident were 747s.
199 Post contains links kaitak : I think it was probably a problem for all MD11 crews; frankly, how AZ managed to get through four or five years at Kai Tak without losing or sufferin
200 Navigator : Do you think Alitalia was less able to fly the MD-11 than other carriers like for instance Finnair?
201 Post contains links kaitak : Granted I never saw AY land at HKG, but I did see other carriers like TG, KE, SR and one or two others, and the only one which consistently had drama
202 Post contains links Eightball : Accident description now available at the Aviation Safety Network: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100727-0[Edited 2010-07-27 12:1
203 Navigator : This is interesting to hear indeed and I fully believe what you are saying. Trends like this can be embarrassing for some operators. Do you have any
204 XaraB : If you look at the video posted by ursh in post #169 (you may have to refresh the window after opening it the first time; I had to do that every time
205 Post contains links Flying Belgian : Look at 3:30' of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V490ZWE4o Landing there with that beautiful aircraft wasn't an easy task...
206 ikramerica : Yep. Yep. This model is not old enough to have this many problems. Even as a rehash of an older design, it's not right. The 744 is a rehash of an old
207 kaitak : Fascinating video! It looked like the last few seconds before landing saw a much higher sink rate; did anyone catch what the automated voice said jus
208 Navigator : Cited from a report from the accident: "An airport official told Reuters the plane veered off a runway on landing: "It did not stop until the Royal Te
209 MD11Engineer : I´ve got a very slow internet connection in my village, so I can´t watch movies. The T/R works independently of the engine (there are some interloc
210 zeke : I would have expected critical engine related controls to be under the floor. Evacuation checklist OUTFLOW VALVE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
211 Navigator : OK, maybe the plane ran off the side of the runway because of assymetrical reverse thrust? The fuselage broke and...
212 blackwidow : - err the BA 777 was fatal - although no soles lost!.....
213 fca767 : Fatal means death of people though
214 JBirdAV8r : Blackwidow, I think the term you're searching for is "write-off." In insurance parlance that generally means it's not economical to repair the aircra
215 nema : Kaitak: Apparently the sink rate was a little too high, causing the MD11 to bounce on landing, and during the bounce, the pilot used ailerons to corr
216 SEPilot : A fire still needs fuel; electrical wires can start a fire but cannot sustain it. If the fire started after the landing I suspect fuel must have been
217 kaitak : Thanks; that makes sense!
218 Kaiarahi : There were no souls lost, but I haven't seen anything about missing shoes.
219 MD11Engineer : The spoilers and the evacuation command only matter if it is a passenger aircraft (spoilers for overwing slides). I wouldn´t bother too much with th
220 413X3 : Awful video, why didn't they film outside instead of a dimmed cockpit and clouds? Yes they were probably slowing down and trying to keep the nose up
221 Navigator : I agree. There must have been fuel leaked, after all the plane burned... But the theory holds don´t you think?
222 MD11Engineer : If it was a fuel fire, the pattern would look differently, especially since burning fuel would splash beneath the fuselage and the fire would spread
223 Ferroviarius : Yes and no. While the sequence "50-40-30-20" comes at a comparatively fast rate, it takes a little bit longer for the "10" and then the touchdown. Th
224 Spacepope : I think the voice said "Bank Angle", though it's not all that clear. Edit: sorry, was too late and was already covered, disregard.[Edited 2010-07-27
225 Navigator : OK, it burned and it could have been caused by the impact or ruptured fuselage but may not have been fueled by leaking fuel. But there are other stuf
226 MD11Engineer : What about burning cargo? Plastics, textiles, paper, cardboard, all flammable stuff. During flight it couldn´t really catch fire, because the oxygen
227 morvious : Well it could be many of things, all we know is that there was a fire and the plane broke up. We also know that the crew reported the fire and they a
228 Viscount724 : The IFE system involved in the SR111 crash was AVOD. It was one of the first of the type. I flew on a Swissair MD-11 GVA-JFK in business class a week
229 faedc3 : Right after the 10 ft mark you can hear the pilot: piano, piaaaaaaaaano!!! (easy, eaaaaasy!!), The FO is flying the aircraft, I think that the pilot
230 Navigator : Yes probably...but I still think this scenario is a bit unlikely even if thats the way it could theoretically have happened. Couldn´t it have been i
231 JohnKrist : My first thougt was that the fire looked odd in the early pics, smoke only coming from the top of the fuselage. Usually we see fire engulfed planes af
232 PanHAM : well, I said IF freight is to blame and some DGR was not declared I would not want to be in the shippers position. Gross negligence is not a misdemen
233 Post contains images HiJazzey : Some more photos: Source: Saudi Press Agency
234 morvious : That fire did a lot of damage. Thanks for posting it.
235 Navigator : After some thought I think MD11engineer´s thought on the cause of the accident is probable. I would of course like to see a way the plane might have
236 Post contains links flymia : That video reminds me of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfsAOeX9B4c&feature=related
237 TheSonntag : Who will be in charge for the investigation? The BFU (german accident board) or Saudi Arabian authorities?
238 B727LVR : From this picture to me it looks like there is a possiblity that some cargo caught fire. Ther aircraft looks to be in relatively good shape consideri
239 PillowTester : Some people are so quick to dismiss the MD-11 as the fault of this accident. Do we know for sure it was not some cargo or foreign material that had ca
240 ikramerica : That is because the MD-11 has a history of this kind of accident. As for people seeing fire before an accident, that happens a lot even when it's not
241 Viscount724 : The authorities of the country where the accident occurs are responsible, but the country of registration and the country where the aircraft was manu
242 morvious : Weren't those accidents mostly based on poor weather conditions or pilot errors? Just curious though because I am not sure about why they crashed.
243 SEPilot : We are all just speculating at this point. There is dispute as to whether the plane was on fire while still in the air, and we have no idea what the
244 TheSonntag : Always more than one reason, but the MD-11 apparently (I am no expert) has a tendency to be more difficult to land in difficult weather conditions th
245 prebennorholm : There is no logic waiting for an accident by every single operator of a specific type to legitimize a reaction. If this accident also is traced down
246 Renfro747 : I would tend to agree. However a post-crash, fast moving fire that gets into the crown space above the pallets, could make the same damage. Just anot
247 jreuschl : This may be a dumb question, but I would assume that as a freighter, the landing weight is higher, maybe much higher?, than as a passenger version? I
248 prebennorholm : In this case the answer is yes. LH has published that this plane carried 80,000kg freight. That's roughly three times more than the weight of a full
249 Navigator : This is exactly why I doubted the plane in this case was on fire before touch down. I have put forward the question if this fire damage could be the
250 Post contains links B727LVR : thats true I would agree with that, but watching the video on this link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38425327/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa It shows
251 DocLightning : Except the 77F, which actually has more range and (IIRC) slightly higher capacity. At least this bird didn't wind up on her back. At this point, the
252 B727LVR : That it would. and for operators like World, which the MD11 is 75% of their fleet. It could possibly end a company. World relys heavily on there 11's
253 Navigator : After having watched the video I think this could easily have been caused by a hard landing for some reason leading to an ignition and fire. Why it b
254 MD11Engineer : It wouldn´t be the first time that a customer has lied about the contents of his shipment. Jan
255 MD11Engineer : According to the MD-11 pilots I know, the MD-11 flies more "sporty" and requires more precise handling than most "normal" commercial aircraft. Compar
256 MSPNWA : Always sad to see an airline laying on the ground like that, but it's easier to look at knowing that everyone came away alive.
257 usafdo : Airport Survillance Video-- Wonder how long before the airport will release the video of the accident occurring?
258 Flighty : If the CRJ had the same number of accidents per departure as the M11, we would find ourselves in a maelstrom of doom and destruction, with perhaps 30%
259 GAIsweetGAI : (Disclaimer: this is my opinion/armchair thinking.) IMO, the break in the fuselage was not caused by a hard landing (or at least, not entirely). Both
260 HiJazzey : Highly unlikely in Saudi
261 alwaysontherun : Doc, that´d be your loss mate……… I love the KL MD-11……beautiful rides I´ve had!! ###"I´m always on the Run"###
262 B727LVR : I agree to this completely. A hard landing will have thrown things out of whack. I dont seen any metal bending in the forward fuselage, even with the
263 FX1816 : So all of those packages go to no one??? I mean they do go to people whom it may effect just a little bit. Don't you know that A.net is the leader in
264 Post contains links Viscount724 : Fully agree. I've flown on MD-11s of KLM, Sabena (operated by Citybird), Swissair, Japan Airlines and Delta, and it remains among my favorite widebod
265 BMI727 : Furthermore RUH is a huge airport and unlikely to have every nook and cranny covered anyway. Of course, the sheer size of the airport may have worked
266 Post contains links LipeGIG : As this thread become too long, please continue with the discussions here: Lufthansa MD-11 Crash Landed At RUH - Part II (by LipeGIG Jul 27 2010 in Ci
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