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Lufthansa MD-11 Crash Landed At RUH - Part II  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11456 posts, RR: 58
Posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 43795 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Continuation of:

Lufthansa MD-11 Crash Landed At RUH (by sv777 Jul 27 2010 in Civil Aviation)

As the first thread exceeded 250 posts and become too slow for dial-up users.


Regards,
Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
180 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 43780 times:

Perhaps someone can post a quick summary of main points from the other thread ?
In other news, I've just gotten a reply email from Wilco737 that he did not operate this flight, and is safe.



The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 43735 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 264):
Since people refer to MD-11 landing issues, this video of a KL MD-11 landing in a very strong crosswind at YUL may be of interest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFloyyEBblQ

Wow! Now I can see why KLM has never had an accident with these. That was freaking gorgeous.


User currently offlinealwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 43691 times:

Mmm, I wonder how many LH MD-11´s are still in use?
The one that suffered an "Oops" in Mexico last year was repaired, but I´m not sure whether they still have 1 or 2 in storage.

I also wonder, after the investigation; are the remnants of this aircraft flown back to FRA?
Technically it´s still LH´s property, I suppose--> or the insurer´s, for that matter.
Would love to own a cockpit window of an MD-11--> especially one with a history!

Beautiful plane……..

###"I´m always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 43551 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 1):

That's all I was waiting on and glad to hear that he is ok. All we can do now is hope for s speedy recovery for his colleagues.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 43493 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 1):
I've just gotten a reply email from Wilco737 that he did not operate this flight, and is safe.

Thats great news! Thanks for the update!



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 43321 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 1):
Perhaps someone can post a quick summary of main points from the other thread ?
In other news, I've just gotten a reply email from Wilco737 that he did not operate this flight, and is safe.

Thank Goodness. I kept returning to this thread for a hopefully-positive update on his status. I will rest better tonight, and hope the other two crew involved are OK.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinesv777 From Saudi Arabia, joined Apr 2010, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 43241 times:

airport director statement to Saudi TV:
"aircraft made a hard landing and skidded out of runway, there was no fire before aircraft landing"

from above:
I think fire broke after the hard landing and fuselage damage in aft section of the aircraft which in turn caused damage to fuel lines that feeds engine 2 and fuel lines that transfer fuel from stabilizer tank to main tank. which in turn started the fire.


User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 43140 times:



It's interesting that the charring in this photo is concentrated on the underside. Could the ignition source be near there?


User currently offlinetwinotter4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 43098 times:

Just though I would throw out there the possibility of a turbine issue with the #1 engine as there seems to be considerably more damage on that side in the rear of the engine to the wing flaps and landing gear. If the turbine disintegrated on this aircraft which has been a problem on some of the older GE CF-6s it could have penetrated the fuselage perhaps starting a fire on the interior. AA had an aircraft a few years back after the engine coughed up a turbine section and literally roasted the plane. Unfortunately, we don't see enough of the aircraft (#1 engine specifically) to be able to determine this with any kind of certainty....This may explain the observations of smoke on approach. Any thoughs?    Perhaps an engine is the culprit.

see Hijazzy pics from the previous threat on this topic

Lufthansa MD-11 Crash Landed At RUH (by sv777 Jul 27 2010 in Civil Aviation)#menu227

In any case it is good that the pilots were able to get her on the ground, and it will be interesting to see how the investigation pans out.

twinotter4ever

looks like someone just posted the best pic possible, that i am referring too, above.

[Edited 2010-07-27 20:39:04]

User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4880 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 42866 times:

Quoting KFlyer:
In other news, I've just gotten a reply email from Wilco737 that he did not operate this flight, and is safe.

That's good news.

I don't have anything else to say - as we don't know the circumstances surrounding the incident - so any conclusions would be nothing more than speculation.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3424 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 42818 times:

The reason the cargo MD-11's are having the issues with landings more than the passenger versions is simple.

A much higher max landing wieght. This makes the "interesting" handling into difficult.

Maybe its time to pull 5 or 10 tons off the max landing wieght to give the pilots some apparently needed wiggle room.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9657 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 42241 times:

quote MD11engineer
It wouldn´t be the first time that a customer has lied about the contents of his shipment.
unquote

yes, but there are several precautions build in, the freight forwarder who handled the cargo, the receiving agent at the LCC office who may question a doubtful declaration, the worker who physically receives the freight, the security inspector, although not DGR trained, may find something on his screen. Plus, most of the cargo was already, including the flying time at least 12 hours in LH custody, most of the local FRA freight was delieverd sometimes the day before, transit shipments have been flown or trucked to FRA.

With all that, a self ignition taking place just prior to landing at the first stop? Very very remotely possible.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 42128 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
the security inspector, although not DGR trained

not all freight will be screened prior to loading if it is already declared safe by the freight forwarder, either because
its from a known customer or screend at the forwarders facility. wrong declared cargo happens also more than you would think of. and you can´t see it from the outside.

lets hope they find the reason soon.more restrictions on the transport of cargo would not be good for the whole industry


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1223 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 41841 times:

Some are trying to make conclusions from the pictures we see but I do not really think you can either rule out a hard landing nor cargofire from looking at those pictures. We must still consider what seems most likely, a cargofire that weakened the fuselage and made it break on touchdown or else a hard landing that ruptured the fuselage enough to make sparks ignite the plane. From what I see it could be either cause even if I consider a hard landing or some kind of landing accident most likely. No matter what happened I think we so far have heard heard a lot of knowledgeable comments in this thread from a lot of people.


747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlinepropilot83 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 41742 times:

Awwww no no no,    not Lufthansa, thats my world's favorite airline man, no way, unbelievable, and the MD-11, not that one again, goodness man, this sucks, Lufthansa is a really safe airline, how sad, the MD-11 has had many crashes and incidents before because of its flaw design. Well I am glad to hear the crew did not die thank God. What do you think happened?

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9657 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 41562 times:

Quoting sydaircargo (Reply 13):
not all freight will be screened prior to loading if it is already declared safe by the freight forwarder, either because
its from a known customer or screend at the forwarders facility

I took that into consideration. A known customer knows what he is doing, these companies have been pre-screened and the freight forwarder knows their product. I have asked, in the years when I did operations, many times the question and I think I have more than once an undeclared DGR shipment, still that does not automatically have meant that I have prvented a crash. There are 2 points I wanted to make -aircargo is safe, even without the paranoia screening because all in the line have had the necessary training which puts cargo safety paramount. People are trainind to check and ask questions if necessary.

Secondly, all of the freight has been, including the flight time, in the custody of LH for at least 12 hours, most of it more than 24 hours and if you include the time in secured cargo warehouses before delivery to LH and secured trucks etc even more time. It would be some coincidence if a cargo self ignites just prior to landing at RUH. Can happen but highly unlikely.

I do agree that the last thing we need are even more restrictions in air cargo. With the stupid screening requirements the US have imposed its difficult enough already to comply with all the nonsense.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 41345 times:

Thanks for the info that Wilco737 is well up, he is a very respected user over here!

A side question - not that I predict this to happen or want it happen...

While the MD11 was a design by MD, many were built in the Boeing time, and the complete air worthiness certificate went over to Boeing - so Boeing is responsible for the aircraft. If at one point the air worthiness of the MD11 would be withdrawn, this would be a major problem for Boeing, since Boeing would have to pay any damage to the airlines for lost business until it can deliver the highly discounted 77F replacements - or 744BCF and have to pay the difference in the fuel bill???


User currently offlinedalce From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1712 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 41115 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
I do agree that the last thing we need are even more restrictions in air cargo. With the stupid screening requirements the US have imposed its difficult enough already to comply with all the nonsense.

Absolutely true. More and more restrictions are being implemented, with sales margins going down and down.
Currently a very unhealthy market for both airlines as forwarders. And the US are really overshooting themselves.


Good to hear Wilco737 is allright!



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 40594 times:

What is the impact on LH about not able to finish the flight with Cargo and other planed flights? Do they have maybe another AC in stored to replace on the Routes? If not, how fast one can get a Cargo plane?

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 40502 times:

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 19):
Do they have maybe another AC in stored to replace on the Routes?

LH Cargo has two more MD11's stored in southwestern U:S.
Not sure about how fast they can be reactivated.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 40418 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 20):
LH Cargo has two more MD11's stored in southwestern U:S.

And how fast they can be ready for service? If LH decides on this?

Thx.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3055 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 38663 times:

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 15):
What do you think happened?

A LH MD-11 broke behind the wingbox and the upper fuselage burned in RUH.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10804 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 38248 times:

Thank God the crew (relatively young, 39 and 29 year old) sustained only light injuries. So surely they must have been interviewed already. A little bit strange then that it hasnt been reported yet if they had a cargo fire before landing or not. At least that must be clear by now, its just a matter of a single question.

What I was wondering, why wasnt there a relief pilot on board. I mean this flight was eventually destined for Hong Kong. Is it allowd to fly so far without any reserve crew? Or was it planned to pick up someone on the way?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9657 posts, RR: 31
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 38243 times:

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 19):
What is the impact on LH about not able to finish the flight with Cargo and other planed flights?

Most likely they will get the remaining 2 MD11s stored at VCV back as quick as thy can, one was scheduled for return anyhow. Besides, they will get the needed capacity from Aerologic, Jade or they charter from World., LH makes use of all these regularly anyhow, They will cope, the company is flexible.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 flyingalex : I would think another crew was planning to take over for them either at Riyadh or Sharjah. FRA-RUH is about six, six-and-a-half hours, that's certain
26 PanHAM : LH Cargo actually has a hub at SHJ and FRA/RUH is roughly 5 1/2 hours. Likely that planned crew change was at SHJ.
27 Woof : Without wishing to be seen to be MD11 bashing, I'm wondering how sensible a grounding of all MD-11 freighters would now be. It has been mentioned befo
28 JohnKrist : Thanks for the update on Phils well being. But I must say that he should not have to answer if he was operating the flight or not, it's nobodys damn
29 777way : The China Airlines MD11 was in Madarin livery, so it was the latter that was involved in the accident.
30 Woof : Misplaced I feel. People were genuinely concerned about an 'online' friend. You thinking it is non of their business is rather irrelevant.
31 XT6Wagon : Why ground the MD-11? The passenger versions are not playing lawndarts at all, so clearly they have plenty of room to adjust the frieghters operating
32 Post contains images DocLightning : Whew!
33 DocLightning : Most MD-11's are now freighters. In fact, the passenger version has wound up doing the backstroke at HKG.
34 Revelation : Some here (not necessarily you) seem to get a certain amount of glee out of referring to the Boeing MD-11. It is of course a correct name, even used
35 bonusonus : Do any freighters have fire suppression systems in the cargo bay? How common are cargo fires, and what is the risk from freight carried in the belly o
36 PanHAM : Very uncommon and freight carried in bellies of pax aircraft is absolutely safe. Thousands of tons of air cargo are carried every day in bellies all
37 flyingalex : That SAA jet was actually flying TPE-MRU-JNB. Does "co-mat" mean "company material"?
38 LHPII : ........hmmm, i would say techinically it is an insurance company's property. Whether LH will keep engines and some other parts as spares it is to be
39 Kaiarahi : Umm - that's the point. They put it down smoothly right on the centreline despite a high crosswind.
40 alwaysontherun : I´m not sure what that phrase means but a reputable company still uses them on many routes. But yes, relatively not many planes left for pax, compar
41 Flighty : An opposing point is, the safety of MD-11 landings is poor, compared to other aircraft. It appears there is 1 hull loss per 200,000 cycles or so. Tha
42 EBGARN : OT: About 15 years ago, colleagues of mine prepared for a shipment of nuclear fuel from Sweden to USA on a 747 (don't know which sub type). One of th
43 Post contains links flyingalex : I think he's referring to this: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Manda...McDonnell-Douglas-MD-11/0044639/L/ 3 fatalities, most of the passengers were l
44 lotsamiles : In the bellies of freighters and pax aircraft, yes there is a system to suppress a fire. In the main deck of freighters, no. If the fire is in the ma
45 HAWK21M : Was there a DG cargo on board.
46 Bennett123 : Firstly, it is excellent news that WILCO737 is OK. The second piece of good news is that the crew survived and hopefully will soon be discharged from
47 Flaps : I have to respectfully disagree. Having been in the air cargo business for 23 years now and having worked for UPS, FedEx and DHL I must state that th
48 bravo1six : OEM purchase agreements generally exclude damages/liability of the type you are referring to, so as a legal/contractual matter there might not be any
49 kaitak : That'll focus your attention alright; would love to have been a fly on the wall at that pre-flight briefing! Back to the MD11; I am one who actually
50 Post contains images airliner777 : Coud not agree more! Rgds, Airliner777
51 HBGDS : In response to TheSonntag's query (in part 1) about who is heading the investigation. Saudi Arabia, assisted by NTSB. Public domain release below: NTS
52 B6A322 : And so with that in mind I am going to pitch my highly unlikely theory: Some of the cargo onboard was combustible, but needed an outside factor to ig
53 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : KLM, the only remaining MD-11 operator in scheduled passenger service, is 3-3-3 in Y class. They were previously 2-4-3 but changed to 3-3-3 when they
54 AR385 : If the flight number was CI, it was China Airlines the one involved. I beleived the flight number was CI. First results of the investigation are poin
55 prebennorholm : The text above was posted more than 15 hours ago and not been questioned. Still there are maybe a dozen later posts speculating on pre-landing cargo
56 PanHAM : The manifest of the flight is not public domain You mix up a couple of things here. FX and UPS are not belly carriers and the question was about carg
57 acabgd : Strange there is no new reports about the possible fire in the cargo hold. I've just been checking German news sources and apart from the report about
58 na : I agree its very strange. If it was a cargo fire, the pilots would have said so and no one would have a reason to hold it back. Now if it wasnt a car
59 Post contains images Flaps : This thread involves cargo aircraft. Last time I checked, LH was carrying a significant amount of cargo for DHL. How is this pertinent to a freighter
60 PanHAM : If you care to read all the contributions you will find that bonusonus asked a question in reply # 35 which I answered. Next, check again, DHL is one
61 Flaps : Isnt that exactly what I said? Ok, I respect your opinion in that regard. I would include those as well. I would also include DHL (well most of its s
62 PanHAM : I was talking about the business model of UPS and FX domestic USA. vs. international air cargo where there is usually a freight forwarder as intermed
63 Post contains links N14AZ : aero.de is now reporting that there was no fire before the crash landing. It was an extremly hard landing and the fire started after that. Source: htt
64 kaitak : Yes, I heard the same myself, from the Saudi media, via PPRUNE: "According to the latest statements from Lufthansa Cargo and Saudi CAA ( Mr.Chalid al-
65 SEPilot : The accidents where cartwheeling was experienced were ones where it landed on one main gear, snapping the wing spar. Perhaps this one landed very har
66 prebennorholm : No, it was hardly the "landing" which caused first officer's back injury. If the plane on touch down had been exposed to higher G forces than an ejec
67 acabgd : And although it's been said that FO's back injury is not serious, it's been reported he had a surgery in Riyadh. According to aero.de the CPT was pra
68 AR385 : Officials at Riyadh Airport said again today, that the crew reported a cargo fire while on approach. The emergency services deployed and observed the
69 Post contains links DFWRamper : FedEx started rolling out it's Fire Supression System for the main deck on it's aircraft last year. http://memphis.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories/20
70 SEPilot : It's not irrelevant. If the crew believed that a fire was on board, they would be in a BIG hurry to get on the ground as fast as possible. Combine th
71 HT : I recall that one A.netter here once suffered a back injury that (after a while) took him to hospital during a harder-than-normal landing as pax in a
72 Ltbewr : I hope the a/c's recoredings are released soon to verify if there was a fire/smoke condition on approach, that is still in dispute and the recording w
73 Post contains links na : Looks like that is old news which has been corrected by officials. According to LH there are no indications that there was a fire before the crashlan
74 Daysleeper : That only leaves the MD11 being a lousy aircraft as the cause doesnt it?
75 columba : Where should the replaced aircraft come from ? The MD 11 is not build anymore and all others are in service with other airline. Also LH is not too ha
76 SEPilot : Which was the initial suspicion of a lot of us (including myself.) If my neighbor has a dog with a history of biting people and I hear of another nei
77 Post contains links 747classic : Leased capacity from AeroLogic is only for the short time, IIRC there are some stored LH MD11F aircraft available. However, these aircraft need some
78 Post contains links alwaysontherun : Strange, the pilots supposedly declared an emergency beforehand, didn´t they?? Mmm, this reminds me of this thread again--> about having cameras
79 comorin : Unfortunately, a lot of MD11 pilots, many on this site, beg to differ.
80 SEPilot : Pilots are often partial to the plane they fly. Some may have sought out the MD-11 because it is more difficult to fly than any other (which I have n
81 prebennorholm : Speculation: If this accident proves to have similarities with the FedEx 80 crash at NRT an the other similar accidents, then maybe LH will have to l
82 Post contains links 747classic : Here is the content of the updated NTSB factual report about D-ALCQ, it states clearly "caught fire AFTER a hard landing". "On July 27, 2010, at 1139
83 Bennett123 : Assuming that the NTSB are right, and I see little chance that they would say this without being certain, there are two possabilities; 1. Fire warning
84 Ltbewr : So it seems that the fire was upon/after landing instead of on approach. This is beginning to look more like the FedEx EWR crash and a few others with
85 Post contains links Rossini : According to a preliminary report damaged wheels caused the fire: http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/n...,plane-crashed-damaged-wheels.html
86 kaitak : This might just be a bad translation from Arabic; the undercarriage was damaged in the landing, as a result of which the acft skidded along the runwa
87 AR385 : It does not say "clearly" It says "reportedly" Per AV Herald, excerpt: "Lufthansa Cargo said on Jul 30th, that they have no indication of an inflight
88 TheSonntag : Thank you very much for the answer. I am sure we will see a very objective investigation.
89 comorin : Both pilots are alive and well, and we should know soon exactly what happened.
90 na : Remember TWA800 in 1997? Lots of witnesses saw something flying towards the illfated TWA jet, which then exploded. All were wrong. According to the N
91 prebennorholm : I don't know where all these rumors about cargo fire and declared emergency come from. Already three and a half days ago from our friend sv777 in Sau
92 AR385 : They are not rumors. And they come from GACA The same who now say there was no fire. That is my point. Did the crew declared the fire in the cargo ho
93 JBirdAV8r : It would be impossible for ARFF to reach the aircraft within 35 seconds of touchdown if they weren't already deployed for some reason. Unless that fi
94 Post contains links 747classic : Here is a well balanced article by Aviation Week, a magazine with more aviation expertise than most of the quoted articles from the "popular media" in
95 AR385 : While a good article, it does not clear up anything. Rather, it raises more questions Excerpts of the article: "According to airline sources, there w
96 kaitak : Does KL need to do anything? After all, it has been operating the M11 for nearly seventeen years - ten aircraft in total, no apparent problems. Assum
97 prebennorholm : If I was KL CEO, then I would continue to fly my MD11s on long distances with 60,000 lbs pax payload - opposed to jumping from fuelstop to fuelstop w
98 SEPilot : The MD-11 is without question the most difficult airliner to fly safely. But KLM and Finnair have proved that it is not impossible. I do thing more a
99 Post contains images comorin : Actually, easy to fly, hard to land! The debriefing of the pilots should yield some valuable input about what happened, and fix this issue one way or
100 Max Q : Time to face reality and ground the MD11. You don't get much more reputable than Lufthansa. And that's one serious incident and an accident for them w
101 Post contains links wjcandee : It just depends upon who is doing the flying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRux78eK4rk The guy in the left seat did about 20 takes in the sim to ma
102 columba : ....that only leaves the conclusion that the days of the MD 11 with LHC are counted
103 JoeCanuck : Not at all. After that crash, the hew and cry was about the landing gear shearing wing spars, causing the wing to separate and the airplane to flip o
104 comorin : Thanks, great video! I note you haven't ventured an opinion on the lynching of the -11F?
105 Post contains images PEET7G : One would think, that it would not need too much investigation to find out if the crew declared a fire or not on board prior to landing. I find it str
106 MD11Engineer : The whole reporting stinks to high heaven. Not to be a conspirational theorist but just look at some facts: If it was a cargo fire due to undeclared o
107 PanHAM : I doubt the undeclared DGR theory and if there was really something undeclared by a shipper they better have a good liability insurance. LH will be co
108 AirstairFear : In that video, shortly after the GPWS flaps inhibit was switched on, you can hear the "Too Low - Gear" warning. This is at about 00:46. Why would tha
109 SEPilot : Not even. The MD-11 also has a history of high-speed upsets, one of which resulted in fatalities.
110 747classic : In "Der Spiegel" magazine (31/2010, p. 119), Lufthansa Cargo spokesman Nils Haupt is quoted. German : "Der Pilot sagt, es habe keinerlei Unregelmäßi
111 comorin : I stand corrected. From Googling around, I see that 'relaxed stability' and a smaller empennage make this a trickier plane to fly. Nevertheless, MD11
112 SEPilot : See my reply #80. Also, pilots leery of it don't have to fly it; there is no airline that I know of that flies only MD-11's. Pilots bid for the plane
113 wjcandee : The scenario is that they get an engine fire in #1 and then #2 spools down as it ingests debris from #1. When #2 goes, they lose temporarily some of
114 AR385 : I do not have a history, much less in this forum of spinning conspiracy theories. I hate them. But either the entire control tower at RUH had a colle
115 HiJazzey : AR385, Your problem is that you put way too much faith in the early quote from GACA's PR man,.
116 AR385 : Respectfully, please explain to me why I should not put faith on that person? Is he an idiot? Is GACA incompetent?
117 prebennorholm : Dear AR385, at some early stage there has most likely been some translation error from either German or Arabic into English, and it somehow escalated
118 AR385 : Thankyou, but I do not agree with your assesment, and if it were true, explanations are necessary by a few parties. In any case, I´ll drop the matte
119 JBirdAV8r : By that logic, should we ground all taildraggers too?
120 HiJazzey : AR385, Are you seriously comparing a quick and dirty press statement from the PR department released within hours of the crash, with the statement of
121 AR385 : Oh come on, please re-read my posts and tell me if what i´m citing are quick and dirty PR releases. Even AW&ST has the same questions I´ve aske
122 AirstairFear : Thanks for the explanation; seems plausible to me. Although I have to wonder if it has more to do with the order of the code running at startup (or r
123 SEPilot : After nearly every crash there are supposed statements put out by people who supposedly know what happened that later turn out to be false, or were n
124 Kaiarahi : Let's be clear what the NTSB actually said: "On July 27, 2010, at 1139 local time, a Boeing MD-11 equipped with General Electric CF6-80C2 engines, Ger
125 Burkhard : Airliners.net is a place to learn patience. We nned to be patient until there is an official world on this accident. We need to be patient until the 7
126 PanHAM : The NTSB should be more accurate - the company is called Lufthansa Cargo AG and the Flight was from FRA to RUH, SHJ would have been the next stop. I
127 SEPilot : But it also made no mention of any in-flight emergency; if in fact an in-flight emergency HAD been declared, they would know and would have said so.
128 Kaiarahi : So there you go, not even the NTSB is gospel - it stated as a fact that the flight was SHJ-RUH, when it was actually FRA-RUH. Who knows? The whole st
129 SEPilot : The NTSB would have started by talking to the people who were directly involved, and that would have included the tower people. If there were recordi
130 Robffm2 : I find this statement offensive and believe it's most likely not accurate.
131 Woof : You're probably right in terms of its accuracy, but offensive? I find it offensive that people can nowadays become so easily offended.
132 Post contains links sv777 : In a statement disclosing initial findings from the 27 July accident, Saudi Arabia's General Authority for Civil Aviation appears to rule out a fire
133 Post contains links Robffm2 : It would be very interesting to know why the airport was in a state of alert. Maybe there was a non-fire related emergency declared by the MD-11 crew
134 SEPilot : I read this as saying that "THE CRASH RESULTED IN A STATE OF ALERT". What's the mystery here?
135 Kaiarahi : Did you read the last sentence of the NTSB quote? The NTSB is NOT the investigating agency. Under ICAO rules, the investigation is carried out by the
136 Robffm2 : As the MD-11 was a German registered aircraft, would be the BFU (German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation) also one of the invited au
137 SEPilot : Yes, I did; they are not the primary agency investigating the crash. But they are an official government agency, and as such I trust them not to make
138 bonusonus : Unfortunately this is all too true. We still don't know definitively why AF 447 went down, or why the Afriqiyah 332 crashed either. We'll just have t
139 SEPilot : But that is why a lot of us enjoy this forum. Some answers will not be known in this life (and AF 447 is very likely one of those) and others will ta
140 Kaiarahi : Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation: 5.18 The State of Registry, the State of the Operator, the State of Design and the State
141 na : I dont know, but what I know is that LH sent specialists to Riad. There is no mystery. We just should accept that not all first-minute reports are co
142 acabgd : There were reports that the first fire engines reached the plane after only 35 seconds. That would be simply impossible due to the sheer size of RUH
143 SEPilot : I put as much credence in this as I would reports that Elvis drove the first one. If no emergency was declared (which all "official" reports seem to
144 na : Amen to that.
145 Kaiarahi : But he did!! And then 5 minutes later he was in YOW to attend the meeting of the Elvis Sighting Society.
146 prebennorholm : I'm not so sure about that. AF358 at Toronto, today exactly five years ago, the plane came to rest 300 m off the runway end. The first fire truck was
147 sv777 : I would think that tower reported the accident and dispatched fire trucks before crew call for emergency after the hard landing. so the 35 sec was ca
148 GBan : According to ICAO recommendations they have to be able to reach ANY point of the airport within 180 seconds, They might have several stations to acco
149 zeke : I would think yes. I think they have a fire station very close to where the accident happened, airports like RUH have more than on fire station to me
150 747classic : Are both pilots already returned to Germany ? It seem there is a complete radio silence about this accident.
151 Burkhard : I remember I heared they were back several days ago. They will not be allowed to give any public statement, or they may be advised to not give any pu
152 MD11Engineer : What about the Fedex Narita accident and the Avient one in Shanghai? I couldn´t find any reports on the net. Jan
153 Post contains links 747classic : Both final reports (incl. conclusion and recommendations) are not available. Here is the link for the interim report about the Federal Express MD11F
154 Burkhard : You are right, googled for it and nothing! Either somebody is trying to hide something, or nobody is interested to publish. Since neither A nor B can
155 na : LH will not make any announcements about the reasons of the accident unless its perfectly clear what caused it. Spreading first weeks results which n
156 arffguy : Maybe one of the ARFF trucks was out driving around at the time. And we do watch aircraft takeoff and land. It's possible. If there was an emergency
157 AR385 : AV Herald excerpt from today: "A statement by Lufthansa provided to Lufthansa employees on Lufthansa's internal website said, that the black boxes hav
158 ltbewr : As noted in an above post, hopefully by fall some preliminary explainations of this aircraft crash will be available. Still, this doesn't look good fo
159 AR385 : AV Herald Excerpt for today: "The German news magazine Spiegel reported on Aug 14th, that ground witnesses at Frankfurt Airport confirmed the cargo co
160 alwaysontherun : That reminds me of the L-1011 crash in the Everglades. And the subsequent ghost appearances (galore) in aircraft with those parts installed. No one p
161 AR385 : While very romantic, those were all myths.
162 SEPilot : Why are you so sure? There was a book written about it, "The Ghost of Flight 401". There were some things that happened that are pretty hard to expla
163 Max Q : Well, I have to disagree, when it comes to the MD11 I would not start even hinting at the possibility of Pilot Error. It is, at best a very unforgivi
164 comorin : Rumor has it that that the aircraft touched down at 2gs, bounced, touched down at 3g before its final touchdown at 4g. This happened with a well train
165 B777LRF : The problem with outright grounding of the MD-11 is, as usual, more about politics than safety. If safety really was paramount and 'the number 1 prior
166 SEPilot : While I agree with some parts of your analysis, I look at it somewhat differently. Flying has been recognized as having inherent risks since commerci
167 Max Q : Although this would hasten it's retirement due to poor economics perhaps a compromise would be for the Airworthiness authorities to lower the maximum
168 JoeCanuck : It's also debatable whether the MD11 is broken. The ones that crashed are, but of the rest, if it wasn't debatable then we wouldn't have 168 posts in
169 Post contains links fn1001 : http://translate.googleusercontent.c...ALkJrhjKFuxKjtHhTvUquL2CnnGTu0LsPw German newsmagazine Spiegel says the weaponry would be machine guns. Machine
170 PanHAM : I hope that the translation is not authorized and done by Spiegel Magazine., Awful, those automatic non-sense translations. Anyhow, Spiegel is normal
171 Post contains images fn1001 : It is a translation mady by google. Not the very best english, huh?
172 PanHAM : I thought it was by google. No, the headline is confusing already.
173 AirstairFear : Unforgiving of what? Pilot error is the only thing that requires "forgiveness". Your statements seem to be in conflict. Not just 168 posts, you're fo
174 SEPilot : The question is why the MD-11 has so many more accidents attributed to pilot error than any other airliner when it is such a small percentage of the
175 wjcandee : Uh-huh. Tell me...how do the premiums for MD11s today compare with premiums for hull-loss and liability vis a vis other aircraft? Thought so.
176 SEPilot : I have no idea, but I do know how insurance companies work, including in commercial aviation (I did run an FBO for two years, and I was put out of bu
177 PanHAM : That's when you insure a single aircraft. LH insures their fleet, that of LX, OS, BD, that's close to 500 aircraft and overall they have a pretty good
178 SEPilot : But if one type has a much worse accident rate I'm sure that they will break it out and charge extra for it. The insurance company does not want to p
179 JoeCanuck : It depends on the causes of the accidents. LH hasn't had a plethora of accidents with the MD11. It doesn't matter much to LH's insurers how many acci
180 SEPilot : No, it is the second. And I disagree with you about accidents on other carriers. If one particular model has a much higher accident rate AND LH has a
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