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Delta Adding DCA Flights  
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14400 times:

Slot swap is obviously dead at this point...

new DCA cities include CMH MIA MCO TPA BDL STL and i think a few others

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1088


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14355 times:

Yep, the swap is certainly not in good shape. Though the lawsuit proceeds, I believe.

I think between utilizing the slots they were not using due to the 80/20 rule and taking back slots leased to US, they got to this level of service.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14318 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 1):
and taking back slots leased to US, they got to this level of service.

Yea, the OAG thread showed 4 US DCA routes being discontinued
From that thread:

US
SLOT LEASE ENDING?
DCA-BHM 3>0 OCT-
DCA-TLH 1>0 OCT-
DCA-YOW 3>0 OCT-
DCA-YUL 3>0 OCT-

[Edited 2010-07-28 06:21:47]


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineMainland From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14295 times:

Delta is also dropping DCA-HSV. I haven't seen any fare statistics, but has FL with BWI-HSV cut significantly into the premiums historically seen to HSV to make their 2x daily not worth it? Otherwise, small win for US.


You don't need a passport to know what state you're in...
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14296 times:

Also regarding the LGA/JFK flights in the press release I believe all or most of that is old news.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6484 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14299 times:

Nothing more bitter than a lover scorned. It's pretty clear these routes are just retaliation at US for not playing ball on the slot swap.

A few thoughts:

DL has previously flown CMH-DCA, TPA-DCA, JAX-DCA and MCO-DCA....none were too successful.

BDL, STL and CMH make some sense since they are focus city markets, though with that said, I wouldn't hold my breath that DL can make these work. DL's customer base at DCA just isn't that large.

The Florida routes are mostly just desperate capacity dumping. DL doesn't know what to do with its DCA slots, so they just throw them at Florida.

Interesting they'd cut DCA-HSV which has survived for quite a few years now.

It's interesting that DL wants to get in on the BOS-DCA maddness that is approaching.

My guess is that DL wants to add pressure to get US to crack and give up the LGA slots in a deal that will be palatable to the DOT. Of course, DL better be careful. If you push US too far, they might just start a fire sale of LGA slots to WN, B6, FL, etc which could really trash DL's NYC dreams.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14241 times:

Would be nice if this sticks for a potential PVD-DCA later on, O&D has historically been higher than BDL's thanks to government and military travel. Recent years and high US fares have dropped O&D from over 400 to down in the 200's. A little competition would be nice.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14213 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
Nothing more bitter than a lover scorned. It's pretty clear these routes are just retaliation at US for not playing ball on the slot swap.

I'm not sure that is the case. US was set to fly those slots to places like YOW which DL could give two $*&&$s about and then that slot lease (which is different than the slot swap) apparently fell apart. I do agree that the new routes seem directed at US, but I think the reason is deeper. Also keep in mind that US is attempting to lease CLT-GRU authority from UA instead of DL. That might be part of this.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
It's interesting that DL wants to get in on the BOS-DCA maddness that is approaching.

Anywhere B6 is, DL is eager to lose money there.

What do you think the reaction at DL was when they saw B6 was considering widebodies? I imagine somebody in the cafeteria dropping a tray of food.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14221 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 1):
Yep, the swap is certainly not in good shape. Though the lawsuit proceeds, I believe.

It is



Ok someone nicer than me can post the times, but ill post the AC types

DCA-BDL 1x CR7 2x E75
DCA-CMH 3x E75
DCA-JAX 3x E75
DCA-MCO 4x M88
DCA-MIA 2x M88
DCA-TPA 2x M88
DCA-STL 4x E75
DCA-BOS will be going from all CR2 to 12x E75
DCA-IND willl be going all E75 from 2x CR2

All E75 flights will be on CP and the CR7 to BDL is on OH.


and here is the link to all the NYC aircraft.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&item=132



yep.
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14214 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
Nothing more bitter than a lover scorned. It's pretty clear these routes are just retaliation at US for not playing ball on the slot swap.

How were they not playing ball? Both agreed and fought the government only to be rejected everytime.

Quoting RL757PVD (Thread starter):
Slot swap is obviously dead at this point...

new DCA cities include CMH MIA MCO TPA BDL STL and i think a few others

Yet in that same press release it also mentions new and expanded service from LGA.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14158 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
Nothing more bitter than a lover scorned. It's pretty clear these routes are just retaliation at US for not playing ball on the slot swap.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
The Florida routes are mostly just desperate capacity dumping. DL doesn't know what to do with its DCA slots, so they just throw them at Florida.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
My guess is that DL wants to add pressure to get US to crack and give up the LGA slots in a deal that will be palatable to the DOT. Of course, DL better be careful. If you push US too far, they might just start a fire sale of LGA slots to WN, B6, FL, etc which could really trash DL's NYC dreams.

I actually think it is a bit more simple. Lots of slots need to be used or lost. The perimeter rule means the options are very limited. Competitive markets are pretty much a given. You'll notice that markets like STL, CMH, BDL are actually these "S-Curve" airports that Delta has been focusing a lot of resources on. These are definitely places where they have an advantage over the new UA and are looking to exploit it.

At the end of the day, it comes down to needing to use the slots. Florida isn't a great option, but at least it generates revenue. If the perimeter rule is lifted, a lot of this will change.

I'll agree that there is a lot of gamesmanship going on. It's going to be interesting.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14148 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 8):
DCA-BDL 1x CR7 2x E75
DCA-CMH 3x E75
DCA-JAX 3x E75
DCA-MCO 4x M88
DCA-MIA 2x M88
DCA-TPA 2x M88
DCA-STL 4x E75
DCA-BOS will be going from all CR2 to 12x E75
DCA-IND willl be going all E75 from 2x CR2

Thats some serious metal on those slots... most of those seem like a bit of overkill



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14128 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Also keep in mind that US is attempting to lease CLT-GRU authority from UA instead of DL. That might be part of this.

How would US lease CLT-GRU from Delta? To do what US is doing Delta would have to dump daily ATL-GRU or GIG flights, because US is not trading its GIG rights, it will fly both CLT-GIG/GRU at the same time. So there is no way Delta could have leased anything to US.

In the slot swap plan DL was going to give its ATL-GIG rights to use and in turn US was going to give DL its CLT-GIG rights......but it looks like US wants to keep CLT-GIG around(for some reason).

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):

What do you think the reaction at DL was when they saw B6 was considering widebodies? I imagine somebody in the cafeteria dropping a tray of food.

why? An airline that has never flown a TATL flight is going to scare the largest TATL carrier? Not hardly. If anything it would make them happy......less B6 domestic flights would make life much better for DL(and AA)

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 9):

Yet in that same press release it also mentions new and expanded service from LGA.

But the only thing new on there is JFK-SNA. The rest of that is old news.



yep.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6484 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14112 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 9):
Both agreed and fought the government only to be rejected everytime.

They both put up a united front, but in reality DL was ok with only getting 105 slots at LGA. Sure, they'd prefer more, but the divestiture at LGA wasn't a real problem. For US, the divestiture was too much. They were practically getting nothing relative to what they were giving up.

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Also keep in mind that US is attempting to lease CLT-GRU authority from UA instead of DL. That might be part of this.

That's exactly it. I think US has moved on from the slot swap and DL is unhappy. If DL can inflict some pain at DCA, they might try and push US back to the negotiating table.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14094 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11):

I am shocked on the BOS and MIA adds. I would have banked on FLL over MIA and 12x E75 on BOS, a route a few weeks ago no one thought would be around long, is pretty shocking.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
Florida isn't a great option, but at least it generates revenue. If the perimeter rule is lifted, a lot of this will change.

what do you think they would add?



yep.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6484 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13976 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
You'll notice that markets like STL, CMH, BDL are actually these "S-Curve" airports that Delta has been focusing a lot of resources on. These are definitely places where they have an advantage over the new UA and are looking to exploit it.

Yes, but I'll be the first to say I don't buy into the "s-curve" hype. It's a buzzword that sounds nice on paper, but reality rarely supports it. DL has been trying for the better part of a decade to make CMH/BDL/RDU into bigger markets because of "s-curve" economics and they have perpetually failed. The only way "s-curve" economics starts to kick in is when you have about a 50% marketshare which DL isn't even close to having at any of those markets.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 10):
At the end of the day, it comes down to needing to use the slots. Florida isn't a great option, but at least it generates revenue. If the perimeter rule is lifted, a lot of this will change.

Agreed. DL can't get the slot swap through, so they have to babysit the DCA slots with something, so why not inflict pain on US. If the perimter rule is lifted, I'm sure DL could use a few of these to fly DCA-LAX and more DCA-SLC, though that's about all DL could viably pull off.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 12):
But the only thing new on there is JFK-SNA. The rest of that is old news.

Even that wasn't new. The entire New York part of the press release was just rehashing old news.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11):
Thats some serious metal on those slots... most of those seem like a bit of overkill

It is overkill, but that's the point. That's how you hurt your competitors. Plus, given how bad yields will be on some of these routes, DL needs some lower CASM planes. Clearly, the CRJ isn't going to cut it.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6579 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13848 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):
I am shocked on the BOS and MIA adds. I would have banked on FLL over MIA and 12x E75 on BOS, a route a few weeks ago no one thought would be around long, is pretty shocking.

I am very surprised by the increase in BOS-DCA frequency/capacity, but I think they faced a choice between dumping the route and stepping up to the fight. Seven daily CRJ's weren't going to cut it against US's hourly service and B6 running seven daily trips on the E190 or A320.

I'm not surprised that they picked MIA over FLL, though. Spirit has a lot of seats on DCA-FLL and from NYC, DL is flying five daily JFK-MIA along with five daily LGA-FLL and two daily JFK-FLL. If I'm not mistaken, Delta is the second largest carrier at MIA. They're probably third or fourth at FLL at this point.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
Of course, DL better be careful. If you push US too far, they might just start a fire sale of LGA slots to WN, B6, FL, etc which could really trash DL's NYC dreams.

Delta has their own leverage there, which is their large portfolio of DCA slots. DCA as a hub is far more important to US than LGA is to DL.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1268 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13824 times:

It will be interesting to see how US will respond to this. I would expect them to add mainline back to a few of those routes. I could easily see US announcing DCA-ATL/MSP in retaliation.

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6484 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13765 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 16):
Delta has their own leverage there, which is their large portfolio of DCA slots.

DL's portfolio at DCA isn't that big. They've only got about 25-30 slots they can give away. The rest are needed to feed all the key hubs and DL won't relinquish them.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 16):
DCA as a hub is far more important to US than LGA is to DL.

Historically, that was true. However, if DL can't grow at LGA, there overall NYC strategy will struggle to be fulfilled. JFK isn't where most of the domestic business traffic wants to go and DL knows it. Plus with CO/UA and now B6/AA getting in bed together, DL needs to bulk up.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9963 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13588 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):
12x E75 on BOS

Am I missing something, here? Aren't these the Shuttle routes?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1268 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13568 times:

  

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
DL has previously flown CMH-DCA, TPA-DCA, JAX-DCA and MCO-DCA....none were too successful.

DCA-STL/MIA should do well though. I am surprised US did not jump on these routes before (Although MIA was planned with the swap)


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13551 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15):
Yes, but I'll be the first to say I don't buy into the "s-curve" hype. It's a buzzword that sounds nice on paper, but reality rarely supports it. DL has been trying for the better part of a decade to make CMH/BDL/RDU into bigger markets because of "s-curve" economics and they have perpetually failed. The only way "s-curve" economics starts to kick in is when you have about a 50% marketshare which DL isn't even close to having at any of those markets.

But you know what? Post-merger, it's working. DL's hub structure now means that it is the network carrier best suited to serve many of these markets in a 360 degree radius. P&L performance in most of these markets has been very strong.

You don't need 50% market share. You need to be the dominant network carrier. DL can co-exist in places like STL and BNA with WN. What they are doing is stealing corporate traffic away from AA. Same in RDU.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13548 times:

Would love to see GSP-DCA... US needs some competition on that route!


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13501 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11):
most of those seem like a bit of overkill

Like the 12 E75 frequencies to BOS? That's pretty much one flight every 90 or so minutes just about...

I'll say that all of that is serious metal. That's 35 flights right there! Doesn't DL serve their regular hubs from DCA as well? We're easily looking at a 50-60-plus departure operation from DCA if they are...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13502 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 19):

Am I missing something, here? Aren't these the Shuttle routes?

Not for Delta. AFAIK as i know the Delta shuttle has always been LGA-DCA/BOS while the US shuttle was DCA-LGA/BOS and BOS-LGA.



yep.
25 pnwtraveler : I think AC is quite happy to see the YOW and YUL route change. Will be interesting to see what happens with volumes on those flights.
26 deltal1011man : DL has flights to ATL,CVG,SLC,MSP,DTW,MEM,JFK,LGA,BOS,IND,GRR,LEX,DSM,JAN,MSN,HSV* and will add BDL,CMH,JAX,MCO,MIA,TPA,STL. *getting cut
27 smoot4208 : I like this move...I think this along with US shuttle services will effectively knock B6 of this route within a year.
28 steeler83 : Wow... even without HSV (which I assume is Huntsville) that is still a huge operation -- 22 destinations from DCA...
29 RL757PVD : Yea I would guess the goal is to knock B6 down to an uncompetitive but token 5x BOS-DCA and shift the other slots to FLL/MCO/TPA/RSW
30 DFWEagle : What frequency will B6 initially offer on BOS-DCA?
31 RL757PVD : I think it was 8-9x
32 catiii : Though not related to the DCA expansion, saw in the press release that they are adding an LHR flight at JFK. Does anyone know the time? I live in NYC
33 Evan767 : It almost looks like DCA is becoming the new CVG. Although we all know that's out of the question.
34 flymia : Its about time someone is flying MIA-DCA again besides for AA. AA runs it 9 daily. I fly the flight often and ticket prices are not too bad but it su
35 deltal1011man : The JFK-LHR flights now are 635p-705a +1 76D 900p-925a +1 76D and they will go to 600p-705a +1 76D 830p-925a +1 76D 1040p-1100a +1 76D
36 iliribdl : 8 daily BDL-DCA flights now with both US and DL. Is it too much? lol
37 DFWEagle : That's a really competitive schedule. What do the flights in the LHR-JFK direction look like? Also, is "76D" the 767-400?
38 azjubilee : Interesting turn of events. If you can't beat them... join them right? DCA-BOS is a huge increase in seats... my guess is that they'll be adding DCA-B
39 deltal1011man : yes. 76C is non lie-flats 76D is lie-flats. 76L/U/T/G are all 300ERs. 76P/Q are 300s. LHR-JFK now is 1005a-105p 76D 505p-830p 76D new flights will be
40 steex : For my own purposes, I'm happy to see STL-DCA as one of the routes and I hope it is successful. However, I think it's far from a sure thing to do wel
41 LHCVG : I'll be interested to see how DL competes on these. Another post references "stealing corporate traffic from AA" - is this a concerted, effective str
42 DFWEagle : Perhaps DL is thinking that AA will simply walk away from it, rather than compete. With their new strategy of focussing only on their hubs, it seems
43 deltal1011man : I was thinking maybe they could start 2-3x LGA with CR7s and put the other slot on DFW/MIA/ORD/JFK or keep 1 STL-DCA.
44 smoot4208 : I wonder what made DL change their mind? Since the slot deal was dead a few months ago, but they were about to lease 10 slots anyways to US? I guess t
45 LHCVG : I guess I never realized that MIA-DCA was such a marginal route for AA. I figured that between the business and leisure O&D and the connecting tr
46 steex : I believe DFWEagle was referring to the 4 slot pairs currently used on STL-DCA. There's no way AA would ever walk away from MIA-DCA.[Edited 2010-07-2
47 Post contains images LHCVG : Oh duh - that makes a lot more sense! I seem to remember hearing a rumor on here though that AA had some business (defense industry?) traffic on STL-
48 Post contains images par13del : Let's hope that their lawsuit is not settled in their favour, one would expect US to increase the compensation to make up for whatever losses are inf
49 Post contains images enilria : I don't think US wants to keep CLT-GIG, look at their numbers. I'm not sure you fully understand the complicated Brazil bilteral. There are a number
50 smoot4208 : I think this is just a smart business move to increase revenue. I think DL is smarter than to do this for the sole purpose of inflicting pain on US.
51 RL757PVD : Purely theorietical, but from Delta's latest scheduling and network strategy, Id think their network planning looks something like this: Hubs ATL DTW
52 enilria : My thoughts are: 1) CVG is probably a focus city. LAX might be too. 2) I'd assign tiers 2+ based upon how many geographical sides the city has a serv
53 DFWEagle : No, he's right. UA has 7 weekly unrestricted frequencies that it does not use (except for a very limited seasonal IAD-GIG) service and does not want.
54 TOMMY767 : Few other ones added to that list if your talking about service to all the hubs: OTHER FOCUS CITY: MCO LAX SEA CVG OTHER TIER 1: LAS PHL BWI EWR PDX
55 RL757PVD : yea I wasnt sure exactly where to put CVG... today it still functions as a hub as does LAX to an extent, both much mroeso than say a BOS/LGA. SAN I h
56 catiii : You presuppose that the entire airline remains static. They aren't going to reduce domestic seats to create international seats. Int'l will in additi
57 enilria : Delta is cancelling some of its Brazil services and has already proposed a swap with AA that with a bit more wrangling could have been with US. It's
58 RL757PVD : LAS PHL BWI EWR SFO and DFW arent really treated like "focus cities" but are rather just large spokes (like a tier 2+) MSY has notten a few point to
59 TOMMY767 : Yeah but how is BDL and CMH tier 1 when they don't even fly to SLC? And I honestly wouldn't call STL a tier 1 on that note either.
60 DFWEagle : No it couldn't because those are regional-only frequencies that cannot be used to either GRU or GIG so what use would they be to US?
61 nwaesc : How does DL classify them now? At NW, it was Hub--> Gateway--> A-->B--> C-->
62 flymia : I think DFWEagle was talking about DCA-STL not DCA-MIA. AA does DCA-MIA 9X Daily its a big route for them and has a lot of O/D and connecting traffic
63 ERJ170 : I wonder how long before RDU gets service to DCA? Seems Delta added service to all their "focus" cities except RDU. I'm sure it will come along soon.
64 Post contains images peanuts : Right, and valuable slots will just come from nowhere... DL realized US is and will remain a basket case in survival mode. US was ditched by BA back
65 Post contains images FlyPNS1 : Operating profit margin 2nd Quarter 2010: US: 11.7% DL: 10.4% Net profit margin: US: 8.8% DL: 5.7% So if US with higher profit margins is a "basket c
66 catiii : Yeah, they will. B6 is very adept at working DC to get slots. DOT loves this airline.
67 TOMMY767 : Indy is borderline focus city but hasn't retained much of the former NW focus city when it was at it's peak so I guess it's an "in-betweener" if you
68 peanuts : Right, taking a snapshot is fine to make judgment. Be careful. Looking 5 years down the road, current and future network development, alliance outloo
69 enilria : You could have said that at any time in the last 10 years, but they are doing OK thanks to extremely low costs. AA is in as much danger as US...or mo
70 Atrude777 : I am also very pleased to see STL-DCA, and was kind of surprised, but at the same token, with the expansion Delta has been doing at STL among other ci
71 DeltAirlines : American still has significantly more seats into STL than Delta by virtue of the fact that nearly all of AA's flights are on 757s and MD-80s, while D
72 EricR : US certainly does have a future. They may not have the network that may be attractive to the large legacy carriers, but they certainly have the neces
73 KingAir200 : I would say GRR would be in a higher level than that. GRR has service to DTW, MSP, ATL, MEM, CVG, DCA, MCO, and LGA, with mainline to DTW, MSP, and A
74 craazy : Very interesting indeed. DL seems to have had a significant change of heart with regards to US - kindda makes you wonder if there isn't something els
75 Flighty : This isn't a fight, it is just Delta making the best use of its assets. The government blocked the slot deal. So, Delta is moving on. Correct. Another
76 apodino : One thing about YUL and YOW. US had these cities loaded in SHARES and were planning to run them with ZW in October with or without the slot deal being
77 burnsie28 : True, another problem these numbers are not relative, as DL is twice the size of US. STL won't see the 757 much longer. But just for purpose here is
78 smoot4208 : US does have the X factor though in the future. While UA CO, AA, & DL all have major hubs in NYC, US could easily sell their slots to an LCC and t
79 steex : Just a correction - LGA is 4x M80 rather than 1x M80 and JFK is 1x ER3 + 1x ERD rather than 1x M80. They did recently load a reduction of JFK-STL dow
80 StarAlliance38 : From the way I see it, DL is clearly making a statement and in my opinion, is setting up DCA as a focus city for the long term, definitely rivaling US
81 Atrude777 : Burnsie--I was using November 8th status, after DL ads DCA/LGA and adds another flight to ATL and does the new equip changes. AA drops SEA, and JFK g
82 TOMMY767 : Wow AA you've made quite a name for yourself in STL. I really do hope DL steals some of their premium traffic/elites away from them.
83 DeltAirlines : The fact that Delta has several MD-90s joining the fleet this fall helps free up some mainline capacity there; additional planes are freed up with th
84 burnsie28 : Whoops, I missed those, probably because when i looked it also showed LGA flights despite me putting only in either JFK or LGA to STL. Thanks for the
85 jfklganyc : "Wow AA you've made quite a name for yourself in STL. I really do hope DL steals some of their premium traffic/elites away from them." That's why it w
86 TOMMY767 : US and AA should just merge and call it a day. It would truly be the basket case of all mergers
87 DeltAirlines : As a heads up, with these new additions, Delta will now offer the most First Class seats out of the Washington/National market each day, surpassing US
88 MSPNWA : I'd really like to know how this shuffle affects Compass operations. That's 26 new daily departures by my count, so obviously flying at MSP, DTW, etc.
89 DeltAirlines : Considering that there are around 10 -90s moving into the fleet by end of year or so (and that these planes are 50% larger than the -9-30/40s), some
90 apodino : I totally disagree. Most of the LCC routes that would have been added are in markets that are already well served, competitive, and where yields woul
91 FutureUScapt : It will be 7x daily starting in November. Huh? That is the whole point of using the operating/net margin as a basis of comparison; size does not affe
92 smoot4208 : Look at DCA-BOS. For years, AA, DL, & US were able to coexist and make a profit. B6 comes on to the route, fares are dropping rapidly. AA swapped
93 Post contains images smoot4208 : [quote=FutureUScapt,reply=91]At the end of the day, DL's slots at DCA have to be used and they do own enough slots that they can connect their focus
94 Post contains images deltal1011man : Why would you hope that? The gov, and Mr Obama sticking his big fat nose into something that he doesn't need to be in needs to stop. I truely hope DL
95 catiii : You're joking, right? All their TATL flights, hypothetically, would initially go out of JFK. Why wouldn't they capitalize on all that feed and T5?
96 deltal1011man : then B6 will have to cut domestic JFK flights.
97 Post contains images lambertman : I'm not surprised. There's a significant amount of premium traffic on the route and it needs competition. I will be taking my AAdvantage account, emp
98 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : If delta could use the frequencies to add an additional SLC or add LAX i am sure they would do it in a heartbeat over these cities they are being forc
99 deltal1011man : Not sure but DL may still be siting on DCA slots (80/20 rule). Even if they aren't LAX would only be 1-2 daily (IMO 1x 757 or 2x 737) and SLC would o
100 StarAlliance38 : Do you think that DL might be setting up camp at DCA for the long-term? In my opinion, if DL and US were to work out a new deal for the swaps in LGA a
101 bobnwa : Exactly, margins are figured in percentages which are not affected at all by the size of either carrier.
102 burnsie28 : That and the fact that they took over the NW slots that NW has leased to US for years, which IIRC is quite substantial after NW disbanded the DCA hub
103 jfklganyc : "Why would you hope that? The gov, and Mr Obama sticking his big fat nose into something that he doesn't need to be in needs to stop. I truely hope DL
104 STT757 : Exactly, those slots in the hands of WN, B6, FL etc would bring in way more passengers without adding to the congestion. It would also lower airfares
105 DeltAirlines : US tried and flopped on DCA-ATL a few years back, basically doing what Delta is now - they had 3-4x E-170/CRJ type aircraft going against Delta. CVG
106 Post contains images deltal1011man : nah its only like 24 slots which = 12 flights. Alot of the slots form the old NW hub NW put up for sale. Really so you know what delta was going to f
107 RL757PVD : It doesnt offer anything new and I was saying this in the slot swap thread....Slots going to WN FL and B6 means more flights to MCO SoFLA CHI WAS BOS
108 catiii : No, they won't. As I said before:
109 RL757PVD : Not so much that, but more along the lines of cutting a few FLL/MCO flights by adding overflights from BUF/ROC/SYR/BTV/PWM etc. They have enough freq
110 smoot4208 : US has a very loyal crowd in DCA...While DL will offer F class, I don't see US travelers switching over to DL.
111 Post contains images deltal1011man : So we should pull all those RJ slots from CO at EWR and give them to WN/B6/FL/NK right? STT how come i have this deep dark feeling you wouldn't be be
112 LHCVG : True, but those people are the "irrational" consumers. That is, people like us flyer geeks who understand loyalty programs and elite status make irra
113 STT757 : It depends on how many slots WN could acquire, Buffalo would do well with several daily 73Gs from LGA vs. several daily DH-8s. Also WN could do LGA-A
114 FlyPNS1 : But DL can't make money off these people. People who are not loyal and buying solely based on fare are not good customers for legacy airlines and on
115 LHCVG : But what about business pax? What I was thinking of were the business travellers who just don't go blindly with one carrier - they still pay for F, b
116 RL757PVD : They could but they won't... BNA yes but I think the others would be more like STL RDU (no shortage of LGA-RDU right now) TPA, and soon DAL.... on to
117 Post contains images jetlanta : Let's reallocate CO's slots then. EWR is the HIGH FARE airport of NYC, not LGA. Let's liberate the North Jersey public from the tyranny of CO's oppre
118 catiii : We'll have to agree to disagree. Again, my point is that they have shown that they are very creative and clever, and DOT are big fans of their airlin
119 STT757 : That split hub idea is never going to come to fruition, it's still two different airports. WN could have been in EWR long ago, slots restrictions cam
120 FlyPNS1 : I'd have to say this type of passenger is very rare. Few people buy F...in fact most corporate travel policies prohibit it. The only way to get into
121 RL757PVD : Thats not really an issue, if it doesn't work and doesnt make money they will drop it, but Delta wants to provide O&D flights to markets fo all s
122 Post contains images deltal1011man : and LGA would have been a traditional hub for Delta. IIRC they were planning to have 20%-30% connecting traffic. Would love to hear how you think B6
123 LHCVG : I was assuming a long-term commitment to make these work, just as you refer to. So I will certainly allow that if they aren't committed, it may not b
124 STT757 : What about Jetblue.
125 STT757 : Lol... Good one. Five years?... Try 15 months.
126 jfklganyc : "Really so you know what delta was going to fly on the routes? no you don't. Assuming is a really bad thing to do. Oh and PS. I'll take 10 flights on
127 RL757PVD : I said "Network LCC" Jetblue only provides low fares to 2-3 of the hundreds of markets from EWR. AirTran provided a low fare influence to cites like
128 LHCVG : Who all qualifies as a "network LCC"? That's a new term for me.
129 RL757PVD : Access to a a full network... B6 is a Newtork LCC if you have flights to JFK, meaning for an airport like PWM, there is downward fare pressure that a
130 StarAlliance38 : It seems that we've established that DL may be in DCA to stay. In my opinion, it will bubble down to the fares given. I don't know about other places,
131 LHCVG : Simple enough. Thanks for the info!
132 DeltAirlines : While there are some serious issues with the Delta SkyMiles program (and United Mileage Plus, American AAdvantage and Continental OnePass overall run
133 Post contains images OA412 : You're asking this question after spending almost 11 years on this site? Tsk tsk tsk! You have much left to learn young grasshopper!
134 smoot4208 : Thank you for the informed Elite comparison. However statistics show that that for most airlines, elites tend to stick with them. DCA is also a uniqu
135 FutureUScapt : "Creative and clever" - but to what avail? Exactly how many slots has B6 obtained this way? You make it sound as if it is some sort of harsh bilatera
136 STT757 : The markets B6 serves from EWR are some of the most popular destinations for EWR travelers, I do see B6 adding BOS before too long. It would round ou
137 jfklganyc : I agree with STT, B6 adding BOS from EWR is not that far off.
138 RL757PVD : BOS-EWR is still not going to provide enough downward fare pressure for the high yeilding EWR markets like Houston, Dallas, Los Angeles... Air Tran w
139 batonops : US was going to start ITH-DCA service with the swap. Now with the swap off I wonder if DL would consider ITH-DCA???
140 RL757PVD : I highly doubt that, DL us going after business markets and isnt just plopping 50-seat RJs on these flights either. Part of what alot helped ITH-DCA
141 Post contains links diverdave : According to the local rag, LF wasn't good and yield was dropping due to AirTran. http://blog.al.com/breaking/2010/07/post_376.html David
142 Flighty : This is true, but DL has fewer destinations out of DC than US or UA. Between those two, it's clear enough that Star Alliance is the best DC area alli
143 TOMMY767 : It's a real shame. I feel back in the 1990s airlines actually TRIED to compete against CO. With the exception of B6 and DL in certain markets, everyo
144 STT757 : They (DL) couldn't even make Florida work from EWR whether it be Delta Express, Song or their own metal. How could DL be successful on EWR-DCA/BOS wh
145 DeltAirlines : Precisely. CO has their hub at EWR to make it work. For many people using EWR, they can catch a train at NY Penn Station, which takes 3h30 to go to B
146 TOMMY767 : It wasn't necessarily EWR, it was the network operation itself. Many cities were dropped on the behalf of DL/DL Express in the early 2000s. Florida r
147 OA412 : LOL. Don't you know, something can be extemely anti-competitive and bad for consumers, competitors, etc., but as long it's good for CO, it's a good m
148 DeltaRules : CMH never lost BOS and, with the addition of DCA, has gotten back two of the routes they had in the focus city era in the last few months (LAX being
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