Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Interesting Article On CVG  
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1999 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9036 times:

I found an interesting article the other day that the Cincinnati Enquirer did on CVG. It was surprisingly in depth and brought forth many valid points, here's the link:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...3/Why-CVG-lost-half-of-all-flights

What I took away from it was that from the 80's to the mid 1990's CVG was a decent mid-sized hub that served it's role well in the network. But with the advent of the CRJ and Comair's large order for the jet, that DL then hyper-expanded CVG to 600+ daily flights (almost 3/4 of which were operated by CRJ's) under the belief that they could continue charging a premium to passengers to fly the jets and continue making large profits. Inevitably, of course, with the fast proliferation of the CRJ and ERJ Delta lost this advantage and was suddenly left with a mega hub dominated by the declining economics of the CRJ and quickly followed by the beginning of a series of 'right-sizing' cuts.

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8757 times:

Good reads...
I believe however someone will "fill the void" whether it's FL, B6, or WN...and run a focus-city style operation with around 60 flights a day
Things will continue to get worse before the good comes out...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8647 times:

A good read, indeed.

It's a tough thing to go through. I saw St. Louis dismantled right before my eyes. Lots of good family friends lost their jobs and others were offered "transfers" (haha). Cincinnati is going through the exact same painful right-sizing exercise.

And lets be honest here. This is more about civic pride than anything else. The loss of economic activity is one thing, but civic pride is something that clouds judgment. Hence we hear John Mok talking about NW management not knowing what CVG can offer. His aspirations for Cincinnati are clouding his judgment. He should know this is par for the course at this point. Look to the east or the west.

In St. Louis at least now we have a realist in our new AD. She's a little blunt and not too popular in some circles around the airport, but you need a realist and an ass kicker for a situation like St. Louis, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh. The longer the CVG spokesman dwells on DL drawing down flights the worse off the airport is.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
Good reads...
I believe however someone will "fill the void" whether it's FL, B6, or WN...and run a focus-city style operation with around 60 flights a day
Things will continue to get worse before the good comes out...

JetBlue has had about as much success in the Midwest as Skybus did in Columbus. They will likely stick with transcons and international flying. AirTran setup shop in Milwaukee and Southwest likely won't come on that hard if at all.

Cincinnati is caught in limbo. A relationship with a carrier that is going nowhere, but no market for a new carrier to serve as long as DL is there. The best hope is that the economy stabilizes and WN enters and slowly builds up.


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8504 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
In St. Louis at least now we have a realist in our new AD. She's a little blunt and not too popular in some circles around the airport, but you need a realist and an ass kicker for a situation like St. Louis, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh.

Tell that one to the idiots in western PA, but I do agree. The same old crap will just dig an airport operation deeper into a hole, and it takes someone like that (the AD of STL) to help pull it out of the trench.

About the LCCs, I keep hearing that B6 wants a midwestern hub or focus city tho...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8503 times:

I agree it was an interesting read

I think its better for CVG to just part ways with DL completely.....I certainly wouldn't give them anything, the longer delta stays with a focus city the longer it will be for an LCC to really enter with some significant service.

I asked this question before but does anyone know how long deltas leases are for and for which terminals exactly at CVG? I think thats a significant question for CVGs future

Its impressive that MEM has lasted so long i hope its not next on the dismantling schedule but i have a fear that CLE will be ahead of them   lets hope they both survive theres already alot of gate space out there


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8448 times:

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):
I think its better for CVG to just part ways with DL completely.....I certainly wouldn't give them anything, the longer delta stays with a focus city the longer it will be for an LCC to really enter with some significant service.

AFAIK that deal where DL still gets first refusal on all incetives is still in effect, so CVG can't really do anything to entice other service at this point (if that's still in effect). Also, there are talks about whether it is viable to re-open T1, since T2 is getting a bit crowded these days, which brings me to your next point:

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):
I asked this question before but does anyone know how long deltas leases are for and for which terminals exactly at CVG? I think thats a significant question for CVGs future

Currently DL has both Concourse A and B which connect to T3 groundside. Everybody else is in T2, which just has one arm jutting out and no distinct concourses.

There was a post this spring about how DL has announced/agreed that they are stuck on their leases until sometime in 2013 IIRC. DL management didn't explicitly say "hey, we're ditching CVG in 2013", but IMHO the implication was that when some of these leases come up, DL will downsize their facilities at CVG.

There are various bits of speculation about what could happen - for instance, a common one is to even let DL have Concourse B to itself, and then throw everybody else into Concourse A, which would still be plenty of room with some to spare. Then KCAB could theoretically label the international gates in B common use so that another potential carrier could start service -- not to start the debate about if or who would do this, but just to make a suggestion of possible aciton. In short, Conourses A and B and T3 itself would make a nice home for everybody at CVG, even allowing for a continued DL focus or a new entrant such as B6/FL/etc. starting one up (again, just giving examples).


User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8339 times:

I wonder if dl will even want all of concourse B past 2013.....they may only want a few gates

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1999 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8221 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
His aspirations for Cincinnati are clouding his judgment. He should know this is par for the course at this point. Look to the east or the west.

I've listened to John Mok a couple times on the radio and have read his press releases and based on what he's said in both, I like him. I agree that civic pride can cloud judgment, but at the same time you have to actually believe in your community to market it to potential carriers. Thus far he has seemed very grounded in reality unlike in the past where the KCAB was DL's lap dog. He realizes that the hub is in danger and admits to the possibility that it may very well end, so he's been emphasizing changing CVG's focus to be serving the local community, bringing in more local travelers and curtailing the bleeding to other area airports.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7767 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
Inevitably, of course, with the fast proliferation of the CRJ and ERJ Delta lost this advantage and was suddenly left with a mega hub dominated by the declining economics of the CRJ and quickly followed by the beginning of a series of 'right-sizing' cuts.

.....and the economy tanking, and the merger revamping the entire DL network

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
I believe however someone will "fill the void" whether it's FL, B6, or WN...and run a focus-city style operation with around 60 flights a day
Things will continue to get worse before the good comes out...

Not anytime soon. No one is going to come in Day 1 and start a 60 flight focus city. This isn't the battle of MKE where the LCCs are trying to get a portion of the CHI O&D. Who's to say that DL won't maintain a 60 flight focus city.......or keep relatively status quo for the time being in CVG. If DL is able to sustain profitability as-is, there really isn't the need to cut CVG.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
Hence we hear John Mok talking about NW management not knowing what CVG can offer. His aspirations for Cincinnati are clouding his judgment. He should know this is par for the course at this point. Look to the east or the west.

Yeah, that comment makes no sense at all. It is not a case NW management not knowing what they can do with CVG at all. There is a ton of PMDL influenence on the role of CVG. DL's network has fundamentally changed post merger. DL now has DTW which can do a lot more than what CVG could do.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
Cincinnati is caught in limbo. A relationship with a carrier that is going nowhere, but no market for a new carrier to serve as long as DL is there. The best hope is that the economy stabilizes and WN enters and slowly builds up.

Rent is what helps pay the bills and until the day (if it ever comes) where DL significantly draws down the airport needs to support the hand that feeds them.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):
I think its better for CVG to just part ways with DL completely.....I certainly wouldn't give them anything, the longer delta stays with a focus city the longer it will be for an LCC to really enter with some significant service.

The CVG airport administration has no decision making in telling DL to take a hike. Doing so would be the dumbest move of all time. DL is the customer, the airport needs to do what it can to keep the customer happy. You simply don't tell a long-term partner who is still operating 150+ flights a day to take a hike because they have downsized in the slight chance you might get someone to rent out those gates over the next several years.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 3):
About the LCCs, I keep hearing that B6 wants a midwestern hub or focus city tho...

That is a.net lore. B6 has not publically said they want or are interested in a Midwestern hub in recent time. Sure, they may have been interested 6 years ago but the world and the industry has changed. B6 is in a limited-growth mode at the moment.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
JetBlue has had about as much success in the Midwest as Skybus did in Columbus. They will likely stick with transcons and international flying. AirTran setup shop in Milwaukee and Southwest likely won't come on that hard if at all.

Cincinnati is caught in limbo. A relationship with a carrier that is going nowhere, but no market for a new carrier to serve as long as DL is there. The best hope is that the economy stabilizes and WN enters and slowly builds up.

Of course....CVG it's WN or nothing!

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):

Its impressive that MEM has lasted so long i hope its not next on the dismantling schedule but i have a fear that CLE will be ahead of them lets hope they both survive theres already alot of gate space out there

MEM will go too...theirs only so much capacity you can draw down at the same time...

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 8):
Not anytime soon. No one is going to come in Day 1 and start a 60 flight focus city.

I never said that bro

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 8):
This isn't the battle of MKE where the LCCs are trying to get a portion of the CHI O&D. Who's to say that DL won't maintain a 60 flight focus city.......or keep relatively status quo for the time being in CVG. If DL is able to sustain profitability as-is, there really isn't the need to cut CVG.

But their not you saw it in the article....



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7881 times:

This is an EXCELLENT summary of what happened at CVG and why.

I hope people read it and soak it in.


User currently offlinereltney From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7810 times:

I think everyone is missing the facts and I cannot recall the details but here is what we have been told in pilot meetings. CVG is one of the most expensive airports to fly into and the the Airport authority wont lower the costs.. Airlines like Spirit and Southwest would have moved in if it was viable and cost effective long ago. Heck, there 2 empty terminals ready if they could afford it. If we(Delta) can't afford it, others won't do any better. Management has brought this up and is in constant negoations with the CVG airport authorty and it doesn't look like it is getting better from what we are told. Someone on airliners should have the details. Lets here them..

Funny note. Why do some people call CVG a mid west airport when it is in the eastern half of the us with an eastern time zone. ORD is in a central time zone and CVG is east of CVG. Too funny!

Cheers



I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 567 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7753 times:

Quoting reltney (Reply 11):
Funny note. Why do some people call CVG a mid west airport when it is in the eastern half of the us with an eastern time zone. ORD is in a central time zone and CVG is east of CVG. Too funny!

Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana are all considered part of the Midwest despite the fact that they are (mostly) in the Eastern timezone. The term is quite old and relates to the fact that this area was considered to part of the "West" in early US history. See -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3403 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 8):
Who's to say that DL won't maintain a 60 flight focus city.......or keep relatively status quo for the time being in CVG. If DL is able to sustain profitability as-is, there really isn't the need to cut CVG.

Exactly.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
MEM will go too...theirs only so much capacity you can draw down at the same time...

Mmmm. I dunno. MEM is ridiculously cheap to operate out of, especially in relation to CVG.

Quoting reltney (Reply 11):
Funny note. Why do some people call CVG a mid west airport when it is in the eastern half of the us with an eastern time zone. ORD is in a central time zone and CVG is east of CVG. Too funny!

It's all about perception, not geographic reality.   Kinda like how people may say Missouri and/or Virginia are in the "south."

P.S. Wasn't there already a thread about this article somewhere on here? I could've sworn there was?? maybe it was cited inside of another thread?



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7402 times:

Although it has been written before, CVG has one other problem, its location. Cincinnati made a big mistake in the late 40's when they did not build an airport north of town that could have been used by Dayton as well. Since DAY is really in Vandalia, OH, some 20 or so miles north of Dayton. Even though Dayton has been hit hard by the downsizing and bankruptcy of GM, its higher income growth is to the south of town. An airport between the two cities would at least bring more O&D traffic. As far as looking at STL, and PIT as examples, this is an old story. Build a huge airport, the size being based on the hub operations of one carrier rather that the size of the city it serves. Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Denver and Atlanta are the only five natural historical airline hubs in the US. The others that either still exist or have come and gone like PIT and STL were built to serve one airline. (Some may argue that STL had two hub airlines, but the airport was not built to attract Ozark. When I say natural hubs, I am speaking about geographical location and the amount of O&D traffic generated compared to nearby cities. One could argue that CVG is better situated than DTW, but the fact is that these failed hubs, are all about halfway between NYC and Chicago and in the snow belt, as well as the rust belt. DAY had Piedmont, which lost out to PIT that had US Air when those airlines merged, as did BWI to PIT and PHL. STL lost out to ORD with the demise of TWA and its asset purchase by AA. Then US Airways decided they didn't need PHL and PIT, and since they were weaker in the Great Lakes area, they pulled the plug in PIT. A merged DL-NW does not need a hub in CVG and DTW, and since DTW was the bigger hub, it stayed, and CVG went. AA opened and closed two hubs not far from CVG, BNA and RDU. Remember, as the article points out, the growith at CVG was primarily through Comair which introduced the CRJ first, but building a hub based on the use of regional jets is not a winner. The death of these hubs is just a natural result of the combination of the legacy airlines. CLE will not be long for this world either once CO and UA merge. It is just another CVG, and its too close to ORD. Right now, US Airways seems to be doing alright on its own, but if it should get into financial trouble, its PHL hub will disappear, because it is so close to NY, and Baltimore-DC. Some people think that the CLT hub is a great asset. I am not so sure. If AirTran expanded its service to the Piedmont cities from ATL and ATL was able to handle the traffic, CLT might not be such a great buy. Western was in DEN and moved its HUB to SLC because DEN had UA, CO, and FL. It worked out okay, but let's face it, DL really wanted to be in DEN, not SLC. Had the rents and fees at the DEN not increased substantially, and Continental and Frontier had still pulled out, Delta may very well have gone head to head with United because the O&D traffic in SLC is much smaller than it is in DEN.

ATL has been a cash cow, and a large base for political graft in Atlanta. But very few hubs are as centrally located, 600 miles from Chicago and Miami, 800 from Dallas, and 780 from NY, yet just 350-400 or so miles farther from LAX and SFO than ORD. Cincinnati needs to cut its losses. Its airport is a white elephant.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1999 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7202 times:

Quoting reltney (Reply 11):
CVG is one of the most expensive airports to fly into and the the Airport authority wont lower the costs


I don't know if CVG's costs are really the problem, I would think that if CVG fees were really exorbitant you would hear more public complaining from Delta, it would after all give them an "out" for CVG if they truly are determined to shutter the place. Now I wouldn't doubt that Delta's costs at CVG are high seeing as they're paying for two concourses but only using one, but that's of their own doing.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6989 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
MEM will go too...theirs only so much capacity you can draw down at the same time...

IINM, DL has actually increased their MEM flying since the merger, having a FedEx hub to pay alot of the airport bills helps alot.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 13):
Mmmm. I dunno. MEM is ridiculously cheap to operate out of, especially in relation to CVG.

And there is your reason why CVG was drawn down and MEM gained flying.


User currently offlinereltney From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 15):

I don't know if CVG's costs are really the problem, I would think that if CVG fees were really exorbitant you would hear more public complaining from Delta, it would after all give them an "out" for CVG if they truly are determined to shutter the place. Now I wouldn't doubt that Delta's costs at CVG are high seeing as they're paying for two concourses but only using one, but that's of their own doing.

I agree and Delta says the cost are high and does complain in the local paper as many articals were pinned up in the pilot lounge bringing up that exact issue. As to the details, I cannot recall and was hoping someone on airliners could fill in the facts. One clipping brought up why other airlines did not step in and cost was the #1 reason along with 2 other things. The time period was just after the far west runway opened. It has to be something big because even the budget airlines have not moved in.

Thanks for replying

Quoting michman (Reply 12):

Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana are all considered part of the Midwest despite the fact that they are (mostly) in the Eastern timezone. The term is quite old and relates to the fact that this area was considered to part of the "West" in early US history. See -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwest...tates

It is funny. Living in Ohio for a few years I learned the facts but supprised how many in the area did not know the facts in the artical. People living in the past! When will they move out of the 19th century...

Cheers



I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
User currently offlineIAHflyguy From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6792 times:

Last time I checked the CVG website, it said Concourse A was closed since last may, meaning DL has indeed consolidated on B. I don't see why the airport doesn't close T2 and move everyone to T3. Does DL have an exclusive lease on T3?

PS - This is my first post as a new member


User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 14):
US Airways seems to be doing alright on its own, but if it should get into financial trouble, its PHL hub will disappear, because it is so close to NY, and Baltimore-DC. Some people think that the CLT hub is a great asset. I am not so sure. If AirTran expanded its service to the Piedmont cities from ATL and ATL was able to handle the traffic, CLT might not be such a great buy.

PHL disappear? Its their largest operation, I don't think its going anywhere especailly with the size of Philedelphia (5th largest Metro area in US). CLT is a bit larger than the city itself can support maybe but it is still a sizeable city in the south and does its job quite well. I wouldn't be surprised if they downsized some but nothing like CVG, PIT or STL.

CVG is just in a tough spot the operation has always been a little too big for the region. Delta I think saw this awhile ago and is trying to correct it now. Unfortunately the airport is going to be stuck with too large an infrastructure that it doesn't need for the near term.

MEM is interesting though, with FedEx there Delta pretty much doesn't have to worry about runways or anything. FedEx's operation is large enough that the airport will expand the runways to handle that operation and as long as the terminal is usable the cost to Delta is minimal and the cost of having Delta to MEM is minimal as well. Maybe thats what CVG should do, try to woo a cargo operation, its unfortunate that UPS is at SDF, the runways at CVG would be perfect for a large operation.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6472 times:

Quoting reltney (Reply 17):
I agree and Delta says the cost are high and does complain in the local paper as many articals were pinned up in the pilot lounge bringing up that exact issue.

But as pointed out, much of that high cost is caused by DL. The airport built a facility for DL that is now far too large. As DL has shrunk, the airport revenues have shrunk. However, many of the fixed costs remain so fees rise to make the difference.

But even with that said, CVG's costs aren't that terrible. The cost issue is more of an excuse by DL trying to deflect criticism away from itself.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6433 times:

Quoting IAHflyguy (Reply 18):
Last time I checked the CVG website, it said Concourse A was closed since last may, meaning DL has indeed consolidated on B. I don't see why the airport doesn't close T2 and move everyone to T3. Does DL have an exclusive lease on T3?

I believe you are indeed correct that everything is in B now, but until the magic date in 2013, yes, DL does have exclusive rights for the time being, which is the heart of the problem. That's why I made the point earlier that once DL is able to dump space in 2013, they could close T2, fit everybody else into A, and even have enough room for a theoretical LCC focus city should anyone want to try that. Additionally, should there be interest in running new international service, the stub of B that houses the FIS and international gates could be declared common use if need be, since it's greatly underused with a single daily CDG flight now.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3254 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6386 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 19):
FedEx's operation is large enough that the airport will expand the runways to handle that operation and as long as the terminal is usable the cost to Delta is minimal and the cost of having Delta to MEM is minimal as well. Maybe thats what CVG should do, try to woo a cargo operation, its unfortunate that UPS is at SDF, the runways at CVG would be perfect for a large operation.

While not the size of MEM or SDF, CVG already has a very large cargo operation which should help the airport with its costs. This is an advantage that PIT and STL do not have.



FLYi
User currently offlineAvconsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6352 times:

The only reason Delta has not pulled the plug on CVG is there was no where to redeploy aircraft dedicated to CVG. Both carriers (DL & NW) missed their greatest opportunity to merge while in bankruptcy. Both could have consolidated lease agreement in same markets, created joint vendor contracts, the list goes on!!

This is a painful saga for CVG.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
but you need a realist and an ass kicker for a situation like St. Louis, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh. The longer the CVG spokesman dwells on DL drawing down flights the worse off the airport is.

I agree 100% with you!! Unfortunately, we live in a sensitive & litigious society where certain people have trouble being told the fact (aka truth) despite the reality. We are looking an industry that has suffered tremendous change over the years with fallout still taking place.

Quoting lambertman (Reply 2):
JetBlue has had about as much success in the Midwest as Skybus did in Columbus. They will likely stick with transcons and international flying. AirTran setup shop in Milwaukee and Southwest likely won't come on that hard if at all.

The problem for CVG will play-out as elsewhere. If an LCC enters the market, DL matches fares by offering triple frequently flier miles and whatever. The community applauds the LCC as they walk past their gates to board the old town favorite. This song and dance plays out the same way every time.

Fault rest with the local travelers. I hate hearing how the Legacy are @ssholes for being competitive or the LCC are @ssholes for abandoning an unsuccessful market. Both carriers have a fiduciary responsibility to protect a cash cow as much stopping losses. This plays the same way as DL might find better results reallocating the fleet elsewhere.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 13):
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
MEM will go too...theirs only so much capacity you can draw down at the same time...

Mmmm. I dunno. MEM is ridiculously cheap to operate out of, especially in relation to CVG.

MEM is working for DL. ATL is close to being "maxed out" on space thus MEM works well for domestic focus. For long term viability, I do not know a lot can change, but for now I think its surprisingly successful.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 14):
Cincinnati made a big mistake in the late 40's when they did not build an airport north of town that could have been used by Dayton as well.

I thought the same thing and heard similar comments from long time locals.

Quoting IAHflyguy (Reply 18):
I don't see why the airport doesn't close T2 and move everyone to T3

When DL announced they were shutting Concourse A, the airport (reported in Cincinnati Enquirer) had an emergency meeting to approve $150k or higher to relocate T2 residents to T3/ Concourse A. Not sure where that issue lies.


User currently offlinerunner13 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6323 times:

I was at CVG yesterday a college friend of mine is a controller up there. I had never been there and heard the traffic is so slow. Their tracon is huge. They had most of the positions still staffed. They still have a TMU person. Then in the tower they were running to Locals and one ground with maybe 6 strips in the bay. The whole time I was in the tower I saw 4 or 5 planes land and about 4 depart. I know they have their busier times but with the traffic they are running now they're barely a level 9

25 steeler83 : At least not yet. They're building that cargo complex in that foreign trade zone, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean that cargo airlines wil
26 747fan : CVG already has that with DHL, who moved their former Wilmington, OH hub there within the last few years. Its almost purely a night operation (no lat
27 B4REAL : This is a good collection of CVG posts. I was born and raised in the Cincinnati area. I live in Columbus, OH now and for a good chunk of time in Grand
28 lambertman : Grounded in reality? He knows that CVG cannot support service levels that it has maintained in the past. He has to know that or else I'm better quali
29 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Im not saying that the airport should do anything to make delta leave or cut flights early. With the contracts in place i think the airport cant real
30 Continental : Did you see the 767 flight from CDG come in? I was on that flight! It felt so weird to takeoff from such a huge airport and arrive at little CVG. Hon
31 FWAERJ : Can't happen. The 1975 law that created the Kenton County Airport Board and the CVG hub states that any and all incentives must be equally offered to
32 flyguy89 : yeah I've heard this argument before but either way you slice and dice it, CVG is still the most convenient option for the majority of the Cincinnati
33 747fan : What CVG needs to do is gain back the passengers that DL had "gouged out" for many years (which is a pretty obvious step & is been said a number o
34 Post contains links CanadianPylon : Well, according to this article, CVG landing fees are $3.95 per 1,000 lbs, making it double that of MEM. Significant, to say the least. (Way less the
35 lambertman : St. Louis is in an enormous bind with their landing fees. You are probably looking at a 100 flight a day station if the fees weren't so outrageous be
36 flyguy89 : Again, I don't see why it is you think he's in "never-never land". Have you read his other statements or speeches? You just took one line about him w
37 lambertman : His quote: "And we have lost out in this situation because Delta's current management team doesn't really know what Cincinnati can do for them since
38 reltney : You could be correct but I have heard Delta management complain since 2003 which is the last time I was based there. You claim the cost are not that
39 Post contains links FWAERJ : IND, one of the airports that CVG is competing against for pax, is even more expensive for airlines despite the cheap landing fees. (FedEx keeps thos
40 B4REAL : I respect that point, but CVG is different than STL and PIT in that there is an incredible amount of local airport competition within 2 hours. I know
41 EricR : All tier 2 & 3 hubs are at risk due to the lack of vital O&D traffic. SLC and CLE are the next to go. In fact, SLC is eerily similar to CVG (l
42 HVNandrew : I think that MEM has a pretty unique role in the DL system. Some of the small Gulf Coast and Texas cities are more effectively served via MEM than AT
43 LHCVG : Doesn't SLC offer that mountain West presence, a la DEN, that gives DL an edge in that area though? I've always thought that it is an interesting geo
44 Avconsultant : Maybe I am missing what you are saying, but the airport cannot dictate what the airlines are to charge. The leakage is due to the elasticity of what
45 FlyASAGuy2005 : You've got to be kidding. The numbers do not lie. SLC has seen double digit growth over the past 2 years. They have seen nothing but increased freque
46 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : CLE is at risk because ORD, IAD, and EWR are too close pretty much the same reasons as CVG and unfortunately the Midwests economy is hurting for the
47 lambertman : No, its really not much higher. While it may be a growing population, its small in comparison to Cincinnati. Even if those 1.2 million or so people i
48 747fan : The airport needs to work on getting an LCC to serve CVG, an example of this being WN & FL's entry into the Pittsburgh market. At the airport's c
49 B4REAL : Like others have said, no way. SLC is "holding its own" post NW/DL. NRT and CDG being added, and retained, is a big plus. There may be a slightly inc
50 EricR : The main objective of the recent round of legacy mergers was to gain synergies from combined operations. This does not mean retaining the existing num
51 FlyASAGuy2005 : There's that dirty 9 letter word... Says you. Delta executives have said otherwise. IDK why you (and many in this forum) are so fixated on this so ca
52 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Does it look like delta is developing a hub at lax? Almost every single route added to lax has been cut there's a long list of routes attempted and so
53 EricR : You are not really going to believe what airline executives say about retaining hubs are you? This is the same tune all airline executives have to si
54 Avconsultant : Gotcha 747fan!! I'm not sure if you are aware and A.netters more familiar can elaborate. When I lived in Cincinnati, I was active in Cincinnati USA (
55 DeltAirlines : The SEA operation is contingent on two things - the local Seattle-Asia market and the feed from Alaska/Horizon codeshares (where Delta isn't making a
56 747fan : I do seem to remember this being mentioned on here before and I agree that this will put a damper on CVG's progress in gaining LCC service. Wrong. No
57 CIDflyer : The only way DL pulls down SLC is if UA pulls out of DEN, and I dont see that happening. The only real DL hub in danger here is CVG. It is ringed by 4
58 NASCARAirforce : Its a great article, it even quotes Dan Petree - who was my dean at ERAU. I think another thing that is hurting CVG is DHL cutting back in cargo. DHL
59 EricR : Time will tell who is correct, and this will take years, not months to determine. All I can say is that mergers of this size are intended to cut out
60 MPDPilot : No one is saying Delta will add Hubs. No one is saying that Delta will keep every Hub that they had before the merger. I think most people are simply
61 CIDflyer : which is why CVG is being drawn down and most likely will closed and its planes redeployed to places like MSP, DTW, and ATL. We are already seeing th
62 EricR : Agreed. It will be intersting to see if the new DL keeps the old NW way of defending its own turf. One of the impressive things about NW was that the
63 apodino : I was just thinking about something. DFW has a huge population base and is very quickly growing. Would DL have been better off dehubbing CVG earlier a
64 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I wonder how many gates delta will really want in 2013 at CVG? I cant see them wanting more than 5 gates since connections at CVG wont be important an
65 flyguy89 : It's been kind of the opposite recently. After the Airborne merger DHL decided to break camp at CVG and set up headquarters in Wilmington OH, and thi
66 CIDflyer : I posed a question similar to this in a thread a couple months back (if DFW was still a DL hub would DFW have stayed or MEM) and the general consensu
67 lambertman : If the market dynamics are as they are today I would think they'd need at least 20 to serve the local market if nothing else. People are really disco
68 flyguy89 : I very much agree. I think part of the reason people are so interested in post-DL CVG and the reason there's so much speculation is that CVG has esse
69 CIDflyer : Im still surprised that CVG has one unique destination in the DL system, Huntington WV. Why is this? Is this an EAS route? Would it ever be shifted to
70 FutureUScapt : HTS is not an EAS route; FWIW, US serves HTS via CLT as well. HTS is also rather unique in that it is one of about a half dozen cities for which CVG
71 SESGDL : SLC is a DL hub for more than just its location. SLC has a sizable O&D market, and a very large one for the size of the SLC area. Over 10 million
72 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Ive actually flown both US thru Charlotte and DL via CVG into Huntington......i think its a great little city and a fantastic little airport very nic
73 FWAERJ : With IND's new ad campaign in CVG, how will CVG respond?
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Interesting Article On Airline Food posted Fri Jan 11 2008 07:48:54 by Iloveboeing
Interesting Article On Flight Delays posted Sun Aug 19 2007 21:42:15 by Aviateur
Incredibly Interesting Article On The 757 posted Sun Aug 19 2007 03:28:53 by N62NA
Interesting Article On The Florida Market posted Sun Oct 15 2006 23:53:55 by JetBlueNYFL
Interesting Article On HA, AQ, And Mesa posted Tue Feb 28 2006 18:38:31 by HikesWithEyes
Interesting Article On MO And Wright Amendment posted Fri Oct 21 2005 16:28:19 by MrSTL
Interesting Article On NW/DL Bankruptcies posted Sun Sep 18 2005 12:20:54 by IRelayer
Interesting Article On Airbus' Leahy posted Wed Apr 13 2005 15:56:23 by LON-CHI
Interesting Article On Airlines Maybe Being To CHE posted Mon Nov 29 2004 20:14:55 by Luv2fly
Interesting Article On The SQ Super Long Haul posted Tue Jul 20 2004 07:41:47 by Rupesnz