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Supersonic Biz Jet Here In 4 Years!  
User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

http://www.theage.com.au/executive-s...onic-ambitions-20100730-10z2u.html

Well, not really. This might rate as one of the most inaccurate, poorly reseached, downright stupid pieces of aviation journalism that I have read.

Apparently Mach 0.92 is supersonic! Good to know

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

Quoting KiwiinOz (Thread starter):
Apparently Mach 0.92 is supersonic! Good to know

The article said that was the Cessna Citation X.

The article says this about the jet that's the focus of the article:

The Aerion Supersonic Business Jet

Cost: Starting from $US80 million, depending on the fitout

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8, (1030 knots / 1909 km/h)

Cruising speed: Mach 1.7 (966 knots / 1790 km/h)

Paris-New York: 4:14 hours

Seating: 12 passengers ( a 50-seat version is in the works)

Crew: 2

Expected launch date: 2014


The article also said, about the Cessna Citation X:
Cessna is also building a supersonic jet called the Cessna Citation X. It claimed to be is the fastest civilian aircraft in the sky, cruising just shy of the sound barrier at Mach .92.
I could be wrong, but I think this may just be poor grammar and wording. The way I interpret it, after checking a few facts online, is that currently the Cessna Citation X has a top speed of Mach 0.92 (checked this with a quick Google search) and that Cessna is working to design a supersonic version, according to the article..


User currently offlinenetjets21 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

There is a company that has been developing a supersonic jet, not entirely sure the name of it. But you need to really read the articles before you post them, it clearly says this:

"Cessna is also building a supersonic jet called the Cessna Citation X. It claimed to be is the fastest civilian aircraft in the sky, cruising just shy of the sound barrier at Mach .92.".

It doesn't say that Aerion Corporation's aircraft flies at Mach .92, if you read the specs at the bottom it says:

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8, (1030 knots / 1909 km/h)

Cruising speed: Mach 1.7 (966 knots / 1790 km/h)


User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5842 times:

Quoting netjets21 (Reply 2):
"Cessna is also building a supersonic jet called the Cessna Citation X. It claimed to be is the fastest civilian aircraft in the sky, cruising just shy of the sound barrier at Mach .92.".

What I meant is that this paragraph seems to suggest that 0.92 is supersonic


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5799 times:

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 3):

What I meant is that this paragraph seems to suggest that 0.92 is supersonic

Actually, with an aircraft cruising at Mach 0.92, there will be significant supersonic shockwaves over lifting surfaces (like the wings)    There's a great picture in the a.net database of the standing shockwave on the upper surface of a Citation X wing while the aircraft is cruising along at M0.92.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5790 times:

Very very VERY old news. Can't believe they just picked up this as a news article. I first heard about the Aerion in 2007. And their website hasn't changed worth a damn since. Last I heard they had major trouble selling it and securing deposits. I'll be surprised if they get it done before 2020.

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

Oh, "Aerion"...yeah, that bizjet will fly as soon as Family Airlines acquires their tenth 744.


Seriously...it's an unrealistic scam.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinedw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5715 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
I'll be surprised if they get it done before 2020.

I think you statement might be more accurate if you remove the words "before 2020".

A SSBJ makes sense for a lot of reasons, but Aerion is a stagnent program. The development costs are staggering, and its likely only established manufacturers will have the clout to get the money--let alone the expertise to make it happen.

The billion-dollar failure of Eclipse is still fresh on the mind of everyone in business aviation, and an SSBJ is a drastically more complex project. Pioneers like Aerion help build momentum, but designing, certifying, delivering, and supporting a brand new aircraft that pushes the boundary of what is possible is a challenge for the most experienced manufacturers.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6926 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5295 times:

They edited the article, now it reads :

Quote:
Cessna is also building a jet called the Cessna Citation X. It is claimed to be the fastest civilian aircraft in the sky, cruising just shy of the sound barrier at Mach .92.

A better wording would still be needed.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5055 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 1):
Cost: Starting from $US80 million, depending on the fitout

For that I could buy a pair of BBJs, or get a used 744 and still have $30 million in change to refit the interior. I imagine that there are some people who need to go even faster, and some rich guys who think it would just be that cool (I would), but I have to wonder about the business case.

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 7):
The billion-dollar failure of Eclipse is still fresh on the mind of everyone in business aviation,

I have to wonder about VLJs too. The Eclipse 500 cost about $2.1 million, and the Citation Mustang and Embraer Phenom are both $3 million+, but one could buy a Gulfstream II, HS-125, or LearJet 35 for around a million or a PC-12 for about $1.5 million. The VLJs must be very cheap to fly and maintain to make financial sense.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWNwatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):

I couldn't find that picture.

 



meepmeep
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
PC-12 for about $1.5 million.

That's a bit low....$1.8-1.9 seems to be the bottom end of the range for a VERY early build. Those things move pretty well on the market, relatively speaking. Also didn't think the Eclipse was that much, but very well could have been for the final builds.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
but one could buy a Gulfstream II, HS-125, or LearJet 35 for around a million

Acquisition costs, sure.

BUT you also have to consider:

Two person flight crew
Aging airframe, engines, and avionics
Gas guzzlers
Lower performance
Lack of RVSM
etc...

All things considered, VLJ's stack up pretty nicely against older, larger equipment. They're hands down more reliable.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineFLALEFTY From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 486 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Gulfstream and the Russians have been discussing co-developing a Biz-SST for over a decade.

The problems are the same that dogged the airline SSTs, very high development costs, high operating costs and environmental concerns.

Besides, I don't think a Biz-SST would make the NIMBYS too happy at the airports where potential customers would want to fly from - TEB and VNY.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4881 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4301 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
They edited the article, now it reads :

I sent them a quick note on why their article wasn't right. I didn't go as far as actually telling them what to write, they have journalists and editors for that.

I agree, the wording is still quite awkward.

[Edited 2010-07-30 18:13:32]

User currently offlinedw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

I have to wonder about VLJs too. The Eclipse 500 cost about $2.1 million, and the Citation Mustang and Embraer Phenom are both $3 million+, but one could buy a Gulfstream II, HS-125, or LearJet 35 for around a million or a PC-12 for about $1.5 million.

Well, first a GII is a totally different animal, and in addition to sucking down 500+ gallons per hour, it needs substantially more maintenance than a small, new aircraft, is impacted by tons of emissions and noise restrictions, requires two pilots, has higher ramp and landing fees---basically it is an incredibly expensive aircraft to operate.

If your looking at an HS-125 around the $1 million mark, your going to have similar problems. Its a smaller plane, so its not quite as pricey to run as the GII, its still going to cost several times what a Mustang does to operate. The newer versions (Hawker 800s, etc.) are more efficient, but you won't find them for $1 Million.

The Lear 35 is closer, but it is still a fuel hog compared to the new VLJs and requires a lot of maintenance... furthermore, for $1 million you are normally looking at a dog with high time engines. A late model (90s) 35 is going to be close to a Mustang in price, and a lot more to operate.

PC-12 is an outstanding aircraft for a lot of missions, but $1.5 million is probably not going to get you much of one. Expect $2-$2.2 million for one with a mid-time engine in good condition.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The VLJs must be very cheap to fly and maintain to make financial sense.

Cheap is relative with turbine aircraft, but the VLJs are efficient aircraft, and the acquisition price is only part of the total cost of ownership equation.

You want some sticker shock, take a look at what 2010 BE58 Baron goes for! $1.3 million for a six seat twin piston... the PA46 isn't far behind, but at least you get a cabin class airplane with pressurization.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
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