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BA Reports Loss Of £122M  
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

BA reported a £122M loss for the 3-month period to 30June.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...-cabin-crew-strikes-ash-cloud.html

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

There's really no time to be thrilled with loss of 200 mil USD, but all things considered, this is probably one of them. Been a tough stretch for BA in factors in and out of their control, hope the future is bright.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4668 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 1):
Been a tough stretch for BA in factors in and out of their control, hope the future is bright.

As they say in the song "Things can only get better" one hopes!

Take out the strike...ash cloud....then maybe a profit instead.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

Well the underlying message is actually a positive one. Take out the cost of the Volcanic ash debacle and the industrial action (£250M combined) and BA would of made money.

Shares are moving upwards which reflects this. All in all with other things considered (anti-trust, Iberia) the worst may be over.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4657 times:

Not too bad numbers, but also not good ones. There have been as many ash groundings in Germany than in the UK, and LH has a black number.

User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

[quote=Burkhard,reply=4]There have been as many ash groundings in Germany than in the UK, and LH has a black number.


While most oof Europe was affected by the ash, the UK and Norway/Sweden were by far the earliest to be hit, and the UK
even more so, as it cam back again and again, mainland Europe was far less severely affectec. Flights were at least able to operate form Germany on a far more southern route, whereas no flights at all were possible from London for much of the event. Bearing thata in mind, you can't really make a fair comparison between BA/LH IMO


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 5):
you can't really make a fair comparison between BA/LH

that much is certain, ash cloud or no ash cloud...

Somehow, there seems to be one off events wiping away profits every time at BA....


User currently offlinecharliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 479 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
There have been as many ash groundings in Germany than in the UK,

Not quite correct. Pretty much the whole of BA's fleet was on the deck for 6 days in April.


User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 6):
Somehow, there seems to be one off events wiping away profits every time at BA..

My thinking exactly! Just as it seems everything is plain sailing...something happens that throws a spanner in the works to screw it all up.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
Not too bad numbers, but also not good ones. There have been as many ash groundings in Germany than in the UK, and LH has a black number.

Costs are down, yields are up. Remove ash disruption and strike costs and BA is outperforming LH by quite a margin in the second quarter.

The City liked the figures. BA shares are up 3% in a falling market. That's good enough for me.

 



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 9):
Remove ash disruption and strike costs and BA is outperforming LH by quite a margin in the second quarter.

If you remove the ash disturbances from BA's account, you also have to do so at LH's...

Anyway, why should you remove the cost of stikes at BA?
It's a consequence of BA's management, just as all other revenues and costs.
Compare it to LH: they had a strike too and dealt with it right away: at BA however, management and unions keep clashing over ego's making any compromise impossible, hence there being a guarantee for more 'one offs' from strikes in the next Qs already!

That's what I ment to say when I said:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 6):
there seems to be one off events wiping away profits every time at BA....

The best management is not the one with the best ideas, but with the best results... it's called Realpolitik in German. BA has much to learn from LH, that's for sure!

[Edited 2010-07-30 04:06:48]

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5576 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
management and unions keep clashing over ego's making any compromise impossible

  

I've said it before and I'll say it again: sack BOTH the head of the union and Willie Walsh and this dispute will be settled in not much time at all. Egos are getting in the way of common sense. On both sides.


On seeing these figures my first thought was all hope was lost when the US carriers (with one very notable exception, any coincidence?   ) are now flying in the black whereas the once infallible BA were still losing money. But on reflection the figures really aren't as bad as they seem.

Let's just hope nothing else gets between BA and what should be a profitable summer



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
Anyway, why should you remove the cost of stikes at BA?
It's a consequence of BA's management, just as all other revenues and costs.

The consequence of BA management will be to reduce costs.

Willie Walsh was hired to defeat the Union and thus reduce costs once and for all (come hell or high water), secure anti-trust and the merger with Iberia.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
I've said it before and I'll say it again: sack BOTH the head of the union and Willie Walsh and this dispute will be settled

Willie Walsh is doing a good job.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
The best management is not the one with the best ideas, but with the best results... it's called Realpolitik in German. BA has much to learn from LH, that's for sure!


Mmm, we'll see...

Tom Horton, President of AMR...on anti-trust

Now that we do, we’ve said we’ll be able to level the playing field, I think that’s underselling our story because BA is such a powerful partner and London is such a superior market compared to the others in Europe, so we went from having no joint business to having the best one.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4001 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
The consequence of BA management will be to reduce costs.

Currently, he's only massively reducing revenues and profit with his strategy and it remains to be seen if it ever pays off, since each strike makes the horizon of profitability move further out... At some point the moment where benefits outweigh costs moves very far out, you know?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Willie Walsh was hired to defeat the Union and thus reduce costs once and for all

"For once and for all" doesn't exist in aviation.

Today's reference is guaranteed to be tomorrow's textbook example of inefficieny, so better don't unilaterally enforce what can not be anything else but intermediate objectives, as you'll have to count on the same people to take things further, next time...   

It's why LH pays great attention to remaining on speaking terms with their unions and apparently that is not such a bad thing to do, if I am judging by their performances over the last couple of years... now BA's performance over the same period however.... 

I know, "one off events", right? For several years in a row....  
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Willie Walsh is doing a good job.

At loosing time and getting basically nowhere?

Realpolitik, I tell you, is something he still needs to learn and it is costing BA billions in lost profitability as we speak... By the time he is finally able to say the benefits of this conflict will have outweighed all the costs his attitude have caused, competitors will have moved ahead so much, this much praised plan of him will again be nothing but mediocre at best, with nobody willing to talk to about a next phase already much needed... good job indeed! 

[Edited 2010-07-30 05:32:26]

User currently offlinecharliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 479 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):
It's why LH pays great attention to remaining on speaking terms with their unions and apparently that is not such a bad thing to do

A little bit of Googling finds the following.
LH engineering strike 2008.
LH pilots strike 2008
LH cabin crew strike 2009
LH pilots strike 2010.

Yeah, top "speaking terms", eh?


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3842 times:

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 14):
Yeah, top "speaking terms", eh?

Oh I know, but how long do these conflicts on average last; days, weeks or months? Now, THAT's the differentiator.

Every legacy has a strike from time to time, but its better for management and unions to talk to eachother and come to some sort of a compromise, rather than continue the stand-off with recurring strikes every so many weeks, months in a row, because THAT's where money and pax goodwill is lost.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):
Realpolitik, I tell you, is something he still needs to learn and it is costing BA billions in lost profitability as we speak... By the time he is finally able to say the benefits of this conflict will have outweighed all the costs his attitude have caused, competitors will have moved ahead so much, this much praised plan of him will again be nothing but mediocre at best, with nobody willing to talk to about a next phase already much needed... good job indeed!

Well the City seem to like what he's doing and back him 100%. So do many business leaders.

While the Unite union pays its striking members a fraction of their full salaries, that British Airways continues to increase flights during walkouts points to more staff working, not less.
British Airways cabin crew cannot survive on the paltry handouts from Unite, whose own cash balance is severely drained – if British Airways can ride out the next few weeks and months, it should move to de-legitimise staff in the union and sack them at the first opportunity. They are expendable assets that can be replaced and by all means should be replaced.

Competitors moving ahead was nothing to do with Willie Walsh...

For too long, Europe has played favourites with the Star and Skyteam alliances – instead of giving consumers more choice, their deliberate slow pace of negotiations and repeated refusal to grant immunity to the oneworld grouping has seen them slip into third place and stifle competition. They can recover that in time, but make no mistake – European legislators and competition officials should be hanging their heads in shame for taking 14 years to approve this deal when they have happily blessed bigger deals in a matter of months for other constituents of the Star Alliance and Skyteam Alliance.

Same old story with the EU. Run by a load of money grabbing self serving idiots. The sooner it's history the better !



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinevv701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3721 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
Anyway, why should you remove the cost of stikes at BA?

You need to understand the components of the actual loss in order to make the most crucial of all possible decisions, whether to invest in BA or not.

The market has taken the loss figures, removed an assessment of the one off events including the strike and the volcanic ash impact, made an assessment of BA's underlying profit or loss and then assessed the success or otherwise of BA management's cost reduction programme.

Having done all of the above they made a decision and chased BA's shares up three per cent in an otherwise falling market. Tomorrow the shares will fall back a little as those investors who saw these results coming and had already bought BA shares sell and take their three per cent profit.

To put this all into context, if you had an ordinary savings account in the UK at current rates of interest that three per cent gain would take you six years to earn! So it is quite an impressive performance and the foresighted will have made that six year returne in, perhasps, six days!


User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
For too long, Europe has played favourites with the Star and Skyteam alliances – instead of giving consumers more choice, their deliberate slow pace of negotiations and repeated refusal to grant immunity to the oneworld grouping has seen them slip into third place and stifle competition

I think going forward, OneWorld will sweep the board with ST and *A! I wish they hadn't deferred the A380 deliveries and gotten them sooner...I think it will be a total game changer for BA.


User currently offlinecharliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 479 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 15):
Oh I know, but how long do these conflicts on average last; days, weeks or months? Now, THAT's the differentiator.

List all BA strikes that have lasted more than days in the last ten years.
In fact, let's list all strikes in the last 10 years.
Wildcat strike by some ground staff in support of Gate Gourmet 2005 - hardly a lengthy strike.
Current cabin crew dispute - yep, it's a big one.
I can't think of any more.

Four strikes at LH in the last 3 years.

If you've got a genuine reason why Lufty is so much better than BA let's hear it, otherwise why not go and crap on someone elses thread.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 18):
I think going forward, OneWorld will sweep the board with ST and *A! I wish they hadn't deferred the A380 deliveries and gotten them sooner...I think it will be a total game changer for BA.

Yeah no sh*t Sherlock. The European legislators know it aswell. Pathetic !



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinestyles9002 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3574 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 3):
Take out the cost of the Volcanic ash debacle and the industrial action (£250M combined) and BA would of made money.

true, and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...



It is what it is.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Quoting Reply 21):
true, and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...

oh you must be from California.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineBirdseed From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 3):
Well the underlying message is actually a positive one. Take out the cost of the Volcanic ash debacle and the industrial action (£250M combined) and BA would of made money.

Absolutely. Really good results for BA considering all that has happened.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
The best management is not the one with the best ideas, but with the best results...

Compared to last year, operating costs are down 3.3%, yield is up 13.5% and capacity down 11.2% - all of which show that BA is being run in a sensible and necessary way given the current global economic situation. As has been pointed out, this would have translated as a profit for BA had the ash disruption and Unite strikes not happened.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 13):
Currently, he's only massively reducing revenues and profit with his strategy

No he isn't. Those are being reduced by factors outside the airline's control (ash, Unite...see above). The airline is doing all the right things.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
It's a consequence of BA's management, just as all other revenues and costs.
Compare it to LH: they had a strike too and dealt with it right away: at BA however, management and unions keep clashing over ego's making any compromise impossible, hence there being a guarantee for more 'one offs' from strikes in the next Qs already!
Quoting slz396 (Reply 15):
Oh I know, but how long do these conflicts on average last; days, weeks or months? Now, THAT's the differentiator.

Every legacy has a strike from time to time, but its better for management and unions to talk to eachother and come to some sort of a compromise, rather than continue the stand-off with recurring strikes every so many weeks, months in a row, because THAT's where money and pax goodwill is lost.

One thing you can't accuse BA of is not trying to talk to the unions. Negotiations with BASSA started 18 months ago, and for a large part of that it had to deal with BASSA reps refusing to sit in the same room as reps from the CC89 cabin crew branch, refusing to sit through presentations by the company, and refusing to discuss its own cost-savings proposals when PricewaterhouseCoopers found they only worth approximately £50m, compared to the approximately £170m they claimed.

The company has actually been very patient in trying to achieve a negotiated settlement, when it could have gone for a "big bang" approach to impose a new contract on crew.

Certainly there are egos involved in this dispute, but I don't believe it is egos on the side of BA that is preventing a settlement. Although, BASSA like to make out this dispute is all because of the agenda of Willie Walsh. It isn't. He is acting with the full support of the Board and the majority of BA employees.

Fundamentally, this dispute is about the right to manage. If BA is to survive ever increasing competition, it has to be able to exercise its right to manage. And BASSA does not like that. It is losing power. BA has proven that it cannot be grounded by BASSA and BASSA will not concede defeat.

Willie Walsh has said that he is confident that LHR will operate a full long-haul schedule during any further strikes, so if there are any more strikes they will be practically irrelevant.


25 styles9002 : Nope, not even close. Boston.
26 RTFM : Hmmm... merger with IB; anti-trust with AA/IB/AY/RJ; pension deal agreed with unions and pensions regulator in UK; increasing operation through indus
27 EdIcHc : But it has also hugely reduced revenue. I thought the prime role of the CEO was to maximise the profitability of a company, when labour relations det
28 VinnieWinnie : Good results given the circumstances: - Volcanic Ash: BA no doubt was the worst affected - Strikes: What BA is trying to do is to reduce its cost base
29 OA412 : If European and American regulators actually cared about the consumer, they would never have approved any of these JV/ATI deals. Let's be clear about
30 mikey72 : All of them going bust won't be good for the consumer either. Airlines need to consolidate. It reduces costs, avoids duplication, reduces waste of re
31 mikey72 : Oh i'm jealous ! Lovely part of the world.
32 LHRFlyer : I don't think you can blame WW for this. If you look at the company as a whole it has generally stable relations with the unions. Significant changes
33 vv701 : The prime role of the CEO is to create or improve shareholder value. Consider the BA share price - the best marker of shareholder value. One year ago
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