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Have USA Legacy Carriers Re-taken The Lead?  
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13011 times:

To the bewilderment of many on A.net, I have boldly proclaimed over the past year that the 2010s will be the decade of the USA legacy carriers. Sure enough, the decade has seen the USA legacies get off to a great start in fulfilling the prophecy:

1. All but one of the USA legacies posted solid profits, revenue improvements, and healthy operating margins, while financial performance of legacies in other regions has been much more mixed;

2. USA legacies are busy installing top-shelf premium products to offer international travelers the most comfortable and convenient experience in the sky; and

3. Having largely completed the long-overdue sector consolidation, USA legacies are pursuing new flying opportunities around the globe, and are/will be better positioned than most anyone else to take advantage of them with more favorable fleet compositions and competitive cost structures.

There's still more work to be done, and the industry is a cutthroat one, but the admittedly painful efforts of USA carriers to restructure in the 2000s position them ahead of the pack relative to carriers elsewhere who only now seek to revamp themselves and do so in a much more formidable competitive environment.


Live life to the fullest.
225 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12876 times:

Taken the lead? Mate the US legacies aren't even in the lead in the US market let alone worldwide. 

You trumpet competitive cost structures and then try to tell us that the legacies have top shelf premium products - anyone who thinks the US legacies are at the forefront of anything in terms of hard product has clearly never flown with airlines like Singapore Airlines, Virgin, Air New Zealand, Cathay, ANA, emirates, etihad, Swiss, Qatar, asiana etc. The US legacies are only now catching up to where the real industry leaders were three or four years ago. i am not disputing great strides have been made but taken the lead? Not a chance mate.   

Cheerlead all you want but the fact is soft product matters and as long as soft product, as long as food, wine, service and the manner in which all are provided matter - the US legacies will never be in the same ballpark as the above.

You also mention financial performance - thinking that the US legacies are anything other than a financial basket case based on the last two or three years.... Trust me - I'm an airline business analyst and you are waaaaaaay off the mark there mate.

The US legacies are all about domestic feed to international networks far smaller than their size suggests - that's it. A lot of old and outdated planes - far older than the average age of the asian or european majors for example. Hard product okay at best in some cases but third world in others - and soft product not even at the races. Top class international lounges? Nope.  

Fact is, the 777-200 is regarded as state of the art and amongst the most modern of the US legacy fleet, but many European, middle eastern and Asian majors are already phasing them out. 

There seems to be a perception that just because you guys are using more regional jets than anyone else that somehow the US airline industry is more advanced and more modern than anyone else - fact is the US market is totally different to everywhere else. The airlines are different.           



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12835 times:

Quoting avek00 (Thread starter):
2. USA legacies offer international travelers the most comfortable and convenient experience in the sky; and

You are so far off with this mate, sorry. Etihad and Singapore etc vs Delta, AA etc? Never in a million years. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly has never flown outside the US. Personal opinion of course but it's a generally held one...

[Edited 2010-07-30 10:06:03]


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12656 times:
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PER MODERATOR POST...THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION  Smile

Although I live in the U.S. and would love to agree with the OP, he's off-base. One or two solid earnings quarters can't erase the massive debt piled up by the legacy carriers.

In terms of premium products, the USA legacy carriers are nowhere near that of the upper tier of international airlines. The roster mentioned above creams legacies in terms of service and the actual seat/bed product in most premium categories.

In terms of airport services, amenities and overall comfort, can the OP state that airports such as SFO, JFK, LAX etc compare to DXB, SIN, NRT or ICN?

Should the profits continue and the legacy carriers pay down some of their debt, they will need to invest in better premium products and airport facility upgrades if they are going to make a big dent in the business/premium market.

[Edited 2010-07-30 09:57:32]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22865 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12270 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):
In terms of airport services, amenities and overall comfort, can the OP state that airports such as SFO, JFK, LAX etc compare to DXB, SIN, NRT or ICN?

You aren't comparing apples to apples - why compare the best of the best overseas to airports that are fair to poor in the United States? I'd put DTW up against any airport overseas, and it compares favorably.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12156 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
Etihad and Singapore etc vs Delta, AA etc?

Not reallly a fair comparison considering both EY and SQ are essentially arms of the government. If the UAE and Singapore were as anti aviation as the US and EU, there'd barely be an aging 732 flying to either location.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):
In terms of premium products, the USA legacy carriers are nowhere near that of the upper tier of international airlines.

I think he means the US carriers have become much leaner and stronger than many give them credit, and compared to EU and Asian carriers faced with similar competition (which they're not) they compare quite well.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12112 times:

Quoting avek00 (Thread starter):
USA legacies are busy installing top-shelf premium products to offer international travelers the most comfortable and convenient experience in the sky

Do you really think the new UA 777 8-abreast business class product meets that definition? I certainly don't.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3013 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12074 times:

C'mon guys - give the U.S. legacies SOME credit - they're at least upping their game, where in the past they saw fit to trudge on with the status quo. I think the OP meant that U.S. legacies are improving at an astonishing (for U.S. carriers) rate.

And, regarding lower cost structure, I'm inclined to agree - within the U.S. That's becoming clear, as the differences in fares between legacies and the bellwether LCC/LFC Southwest are becoming smaller & smaller. So, domestically they've become much more competitive, while still offering something of a premium front cabin & the ability for frequent flyers to upgrade on most flights vs the LCCs.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11995 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
You trumpet competitive cost structures and then try to tell us that the legacies have top shelf premium products - anyone who thinks the US legacies are at the forefront of anything in terms of hard product has clearly never flown with airlines like Singapore Airlines, Virgin, Air New Zealand, Cathay, ANA, emirates, etihad, Swiss, Qatar, asiana etc.

I've flown with all but three of the airlines you've mentioned and can stand by every part of my statement. For starters, the lower cost structure of USA carriers allows them to engage in the necessary capital spend to bring top-shelf premium cabins to market. Futhermore, the USA legacies that are installing top-shelf premium products intend to use them on virtually all longhaul services -- Singapore Airlines, Emirates, and Cathay intend to continue operating a good many longhaul services with subpar premum cabins for years to come, while hyping the cabins they only intend to offer on a fraction of their longhaul networks. I'm not particularly wowed by SQ's and CX's decision to install "new" regional cabins that offer slanted seats on services up to 10 hours in duration.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Cheerlead all you want but the fact is soft product matters and as long as soft product, as long as food, wine, service and the manner in which all are provided matter - the US legacies will never be in the same ballpark as the above.

Soft product does matter, and while no one was looking, USA legacies have been steadily improving their soft product while European and Asian legacies have been steadily degrading theirs.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Fact is, the 777-200 is regarded as state of the art and amongst the most modern of the US legacy fleet, but many European, middle eastern and Asian majors are already phasing them out.

Boeing 777-200s are indeed a modern aircraft type, and there's no need for USA legacies to dump what's still a very efficient and effective aircraft anytime soon. Besides, the USA legacies have plenty of 787s and A350s on order, and again, USA legacies can and likely will install top-shelf hard products in them instead of acquiring A380s and using 2002-era slanted seats in them.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11854 times:

I'm guess I'm supposed to make a statement here stating that this is my personal opinion on the subject.....

Quoting avek00 (Thread starter):
2. USA legacies are busy installing top-shelf premium products to offer international travelers the most comfortable and convenient experience in the sky

Ah, I get the spin here. US airlines are upping some of their seat designs and meal services to premium cabins. It's all about "stuff".

I'm not going to go so far as to say actual customer service on US legacies is horrendous, but the foreign airlines you love to put down here are so far ahead in that regards it's not even funny.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 8):
Singapore Airlines, Emirates, and Cathay
Quoting avek00 (Reply 8):
subpar premum cabins

This right here is just plain wrong. How anyone could say with a straight face that Emirates has a "supbar" economy cabin is just baffling.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11841 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
How anyone could say with a straight face that Emirates has a "subpar" economy cabin is just baffling.

EK (and any other carriers) with 10-abreast Y class cabins on 777s are definitely "subpar". The majority of 777 operators are 9-abreast.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25057 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11817 times:

Quoting avek00 (Thread starter):
All but one of the USA legacies posted solid profits, revenue improvements, and healthy operating margins, while financial performance of legacies in other regions has been much more mixed;

US carriers made nice profits in 2007 also.

As we know they were not out of the woods then, and I don't see them being close to out of the woods now either.
The US industry has accumulated billions of dollars of debts, a decade worth of lack of investment, a shrunk and demoralized labor force, generally dumbed down product offering reliant on nickle and diming.

It will take a long time for US carriers to dig themselves out any hole, to even come close to catching up to their global peers -- likely right in time for the next major downturn.

US carriers on the whole have long lost their luster, and are no way close to "re-taking" anything.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7118 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11779 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
- fact is the US market is totally different to everywhere else.

Strange to hear a non-American make such a statement  
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
The US legacies are all about domestic feed to international networks far smaller than their size suggests - that's it.

The key to their entire existence, unlike a lot of international carriers, the US domestic market is so huge that it was their priority, and I'm just talking about the US not North America to include Canada and Mexico. They chose to focus on their primary market which created more profits than their international operations, a lot of the excellent international carriers are also catering to their primary market which is international. The dynamics of the two markets are different.

US carriers are improving, I'll give them credit for that, its a start.


User currently offlinefortunerunnner From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11687 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
EK (and any other carriers) with 10-abreast Y class cabins on 777s are definitely "subpar". The majority of 777 operators are 9-abreast.


How many seats are fitted in one row though is important, it is not the only factor that determines the quality of Y product. Do you really believes that Y class on UA/AA/DL 777s is better than Y class on EK's ?

  


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11607 times:

a few new lie flat beds, one quarter of profitability and some AVOD screesn, after severe losses and bankruptices over the past few years and US legacies are back in the lead??? Some would argue they don't even have the lead in the US in terms of product (VX for product, WN for lower/no fees) and international, well EK, CX and a host of other leave them trailing i product and service. Getting better, yes, the best, no, still a long way to go.

Now, do they need to be the best based on their actual market....that's a whole different question...


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11195 times:
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The fact some airlines may be partly/totally/maybe owned by the goverment is not relevant to me. All I care about is how does X Airline's product compared to Y Airline's product when you look at service, food, seat, facility and price.

For folks that are upset about state ownership in the industry, take it up with your Congressman.

For the comment about DTW, that is one of the few airports I have not been to recently. I'm happy to hear if there is any airport's business/first class facility in the USA that favorably compares to the ones I mentioned. I didn't see anyone else say DTW matched up but perhaps it does.

In comparing airlines on my trips, I would automatically exclude any business class cabin where all I could choose from is the middle section that is four abreast. Perhaps its just me but I'm not paying 5x or more Econ fare to sit four across.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3051 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11034 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):
One or two solid earnings quarters can't erase the massive debt piled up by the legacy carriers.

Letś not forget that a large part of these earnings came from the fees imposed for everything. International carriers don charge fees like legacies do and yet they manage to post profits...clearly something is wrong on one side.

I will admit, however, that it's a start, but any statistics experts will tell you that with one good quarter the airlines are nowhere near out of the woods. You would need several good quarters (not one after the other...but more good ones than bad ones) before you can say that the legacies are recovering or have recovered.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10848 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
Letś not forget that a large part of these earnings came from the fees imposed for everything.

And the net earnings from fees could be cut as soon as congress starts taxing them. Many do not realize that the treasury has taken a hit by removing the "fee items" from the ticket price as airlines (pax, really) don't pay taxes on many of these "fees"....


http://transportation.nationaljourna...-airline-fees-be-taxed.php#1608985



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10679 times:

In my personal opinion, I have to agree with avek. I haven't been on a LCC in over four years and that's because the legacies were cheaper. They also had better times and other things that made them more favorable. JetBlue may not charge for a checked bag, but if they don't fly at a decent time for the same price then I have no reason to take them. Southwest may be a wonderful airline, but until they fly to Rochester I have no reason to fly them.

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10585 times:

Quoting fortunerunnner (Reply 13):
Do you really believes that Y class on UA/AA/DL 777s is better than Y class on EK's

I would choose 9 abreast over 10 every day of the week, so the answer is yes.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10524 times:

You can't really compare the airlines in the US to other airlines around the world. There is no fair way of looking at it, the US market is unlike anything else in the world.
You can say that SQ is far better than any carrier in America but if SQ was based in the US they wouldn't last a year, there product would never work and they wouldn't be able to discriminate so they wouldn't have a workforce of all young attractive available girls.
You can look at EK and say that they are the greatest thing to ever fly but when the airline has to make it on its own will they be able to keep up at the pace they are going at now? We all seen Dubai go from a booming playground for the rich where anything was possible to near collapse when the money stopped flowing. One day in the future the government will no longer be in a position to fund EK and the airline will either stand on its own or fall, with a fleet like theirs they will either fall hard or be an unstoppable giant.
We have all seen the mess BA is in, they might not make it as it is but if you were to take LHR away would they have a chance? Do they really offer all that much as an airline or are they a power in the airline world because of their position at LHR?

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you cannot really do a REAL comparison of airlines worldwide and come out with a fair provable answer. You can only look at how good an airline is doing relative to their peers and there is no way an airline like American Airlines and Emirates are really peers.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineexFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10501 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 8):
For starters, the lower cost structure of USA carriers allows them to engage in the necessary capital spend to bring top-shelf premium cabins to market. Futhermore, the USA legacies that are installing top-shelf premium products intend to use them on virtually all longhaul services

Name a single example of a US legacy offering a "top-shelf" business class cabin. Just one that's comparable with the hard product on the Asian or Middle Eastern airlines, let alone the soft product, or the lounges. And the differential is even more striking if you compare First Class. The US network carriers have perhaps caught up to some of the mid-tier international carriers, but that's about it, and there's even some sign of backsliding - UA's new 8-abreast business class cabin is a contemptible joke. And the lower cost structure of the US network carriers doesn't mean that much money free for investment, thanks to their horrifically larded-up balance sheets.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 17):
And the net earnings from fees could be cut as soon as congress starts taxing them. Many do not realize that the treasury has taken a hit by removing the "fee items" from the ticket price as airlines (pax, really) don't pay taxes on many of these "fees"....

The treasury has "taken a hit" only if you presume that the airlines could have pushed through base fare increases instead of the fees, particularly the baggage fee. Since the baggage fee was a reaction to lower-tier consumers resistance to base fare increases, this is a questionable assumption. There has likely been some revenue loss, but the actual figure is likely much lower than a "well, fees were $X times 7.5%" back of the napkin calculation would suggest.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22865 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10387 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 15):
In comparing airlines on my trips, I would automatically exclude any business class cabin where all I could choose from is the middle section that is four abreast. Perhaps its just me but I'm not paying 5x or more Econ fare to sit four across.

It depends how many are in your party, I think. If you are traveling with someone, there's really no difference between three across and four across. The person not on the aisle will step over/across the person she knows, and it doesn't really matter whether there is one person or two on her other side.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10219 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):
In terms of airport services, amenities and overall comfort, can the OP state that airports such as SFO, JFK, LAX etc compare to DXB, SIN, NRT or ICN?

Some are and some aren't. It really depends on where you are and what terminal you happen to be in.

Quoting fortunerunnner (Reply 13):
How many seats are fitted in one row though is important, it is not the only factor that determines the quality of Y product.

You can say the same for the business and first class cabins as well.

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 21):
Name a single example of a US legacy offering a "top-shelf" business class cabin.

How about Delta. Their herringbone seats are virtually identical to the ones used by Air New Zealand, Air Canada, Jet Airways and Cathay Pacific.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefortunerunnner From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 19):

I would choose 9 abreast over 10 every day of the week, so the answer is yes

And I'll bet that there are even more who would choose fly 10 abreast every day of the week if the flight attendant show genuine warmth, give decent food-drinks and have the one of the best IFE systems to keep them entertained over gaining couple of inches of extra seat width.


25 BMI727 : There is the slight detail of price too.
26 fortunerunnner : Agreed however from personal experience I can tell that more or less Y prices are similar between two airlines that operate on any given sector regar
27 UAL747DEN : I don't think so, I think that United's new First Class Suite is very competitive with other airlines products. I won't get into this again but I wil
28 SonomaFlyer : UAL747DEN, you are probably right but in the end, the folks that make the decision about which airline to fly don't normally consider the issues you r
29 huaiwei : Since when are comparisons ever fair? Even comparisons between US legacy carriers isn't fair, if you decide to be annal about it and start throwing u
30 VinnieWinnie : You are joking right? 10 months living and flying in the US has told me that: - Seats are the same as in Europe - Service is poorer - Amenities are po
31 CHRISBA777ER : I think the o p was hoping for a giant Delta love in, but methinks there is some confusion. Fact is, avod screens in some of your fleet does not a wor
32 Maverick623 : I'd actually say they're more like train stations, except trains are less hassle.
33 RyanairGuru : I know NOBODY in Australia who would even consider UA for flying to the USA. I know people who have paid $2000 more to fly QF. Anybody I know who is
34 deputydawghere : There's no doubt Singapore is one of the best carriers on the market, but your forgot to mention carriers such as Qantas and Lufthansa; to name a few
35 deputydawghere : You're absolutely correct. Their business class will compete with any carrier's as well.
36 deputydawghere : You've contradicted yourself with your statement. If a carrier has an generous revenue stream coming in from its government, especially when it's ear
37 fortunerunnner : US carriers are no where near leaders in any meaningful metrics be it profitability, hard/soft product or service satisfaction. Have they come back fr
38 avek00 : Oh no, I neither sought nor expected such. What I did expect was some objective discussion regarding USA carriers and their legacy peers elsewhere in
39 OA412 : How exactly did this go from the OP speculating about where USA legacies are headed to an allegation of him wanting this to be a DL love in? The OP i
40 UAL777UK : Hmm, well clearly UA's reputation must be soo bad that they constantly have high LF's out of OZ and increase service in the high season, so I think y
41 UAL747DEN : I'm pretty versed in revenue management but thanks for the information! You are completely correct that we have to compete with SQ (not so much SIN)
42 goldenstate : DL is investing in almost every area you have mentioned and by the end of 2012 will have AVOD nose to tail on every single international widebody. I'
43 planemaker : Fee revenues went up over 400% in just 2 years. Absolutely airlines could have pushed through base fare increases.
44 HOOB747 : Having flown United internationally for the past 5 years, I recently had the pleasure of flying Air New Zealand Sydney to Aukland (763) and Aukland to
45 VC10er : I am an American, born and raised in NYC! and pround to be so! We Americans are so amazing at so many things (NOT EVERYTHING) but oddly our airlines a
46 Post contains links ElbowRoom : My impression is that the US legacies have pulled themselves together and started to make important changes. Even if they are not at the top of the pe
47 VC10er : TAM Brazil serves dinner on red cut crystal - the competition is on!!!
48 koruman : I am about the most pro-American person you would ever find outside the USA, and I visit the USA between two and five times every year, booking most o
49 Scotron11 : Ive flown EK economy class on their 777ER many times and even 10 across isn't bad at all. KLM is good too. Mind you, on EK I was fortunate to have the
50 Post contains links ElbowRoom : I am pro-American too, based on the Amercans I know personally. But what has happened to fares, and what has happened to fuel prices? Despite the rec
51 avek00 : To clarify, the onboard products are but one area I'm referring to under the umbrella of "taking the lead". I'm also looking at things like the aggres
52 deputydawghere : No disrespect to you, but you're 13 - 15 years old. What kind of personal experience do you bring to this discussion about international carriers? Fr
53 ElbowRoom : I remember being shocked when I transferred at ORD 3 or 4 years ago from a transatlantic flight to a US domestic flight to the West Coast, that the '
54 Post contains images iainbhx : The new hard product on board probably would and I have no animus against 8-abreast C as it works quite well in BA club world. It's almost certainly
55 brilondon : The second largest airline in the world? I think you may not quite be accurate in your assumption that no one outside A.Net has heard of Delta Airlin
56 par13del : Well if your congressman ensured that DL,CO,UA and US had to close up shop and gave you only one airline to compete internationally you would, but th
57 ElbowRoom : Yes, and why are their shareholders making less din? Because they can see an end to haemorrhaging money, thanks to consolidation, and because these a
58 XaraB : No, they're not. The US of A has made sure all the airlines have a home to return to if their actions prove unfortunate - it's called Chapter 11. I'm
59 MaverickM11 : You just wait until all the EU/Asian carriers start to face competition on a similar level to the US; in that respect the US legacies are a ways ahea
60 Post contains images seemyseems : The US carriers do seem to be improving, I hear a lot of positive reviews (mainly about CO). However; I still find that most European carriers have ch
61 Post contains images SonomaFlyer : I'm glad to hear that UA maintains good loads on their Asian network. It may be a perception/rating thing but every survey I've seen over the last sev
62 Post contains links and images Thorben : I really disagree. Maybe you should take the time to see how many awards for service US carriers have won in the past years, how their fleet age, and
63 deputydawghere : Obviously you've not followed the historic inactivity (financial support) on the side of the U.S. government with U.S. carriers. Our government hasn'
64 Post contains images aviationmaster : I wonder where the US legacies would be if it wasn't for that thing called Chapter 11.
65 deputydawghere : I couldn't agree with you more. There's a cattle-car carrier, whose CEO encourages its employees to be rude to customers.
66 deputydawghere : You bring a good point to the table; they'd probably be in the same place Swiss Air, one of the best ever, ended up unfortunately.
67 planemaker : Fees are just a way for airlines to nickel and dime pax. Ryanair, at least, is up front about it! If airlines were truly going to be fair about it th
68 mayor : Having been in the business for several years, most airline analysts don't impress me. Sorry. Then how can you compare them.....different networks, d
69 par13del : I would say that's because your country had no other investors who were willing to put up funds to invest. Exactly where they are today, because they
70 DTWLAX : Just take a look at how mis-informed you are youself. DL is not the second largest but the largest airline in the world.... and they will be until th
71 koruman : Actually, both posters are pretty well on the money. Almost all of the highest yielding passengers originating in Australia pick Qantas, V Australia
72 exFATboy : Good points, and definite improvements in the hard product by both DL and UA, but based on TRs/reviews I'd say the soft product still lags behind. Ah
73 deputydawghere : You obviously haven't been on any of United's 744's recently. Their first class and business cabins will compete successfully with any global carrier
74 koruman : I have actually, because I can get such savagely discounted deals when travelling on my own money. My point was actually intended to be as follows: O
75 planemaker : Almost $5-billion in fee revenue is certainly MOST meaningful no matter which way you slice it!! You have it wrong... it is not that they met with "s
76 EricR : Agreed. If the gap does close, however, I think it will be more due to the foreign carriers cutting back as opposed to the US carriers improving.
77 deputydawghere : That's interesting. I just flew on United to Sydney, and with the exception of their 744's not having screens in the back of each seat, and don't ask
78 blueleo65 : The fact is US carriers could care less about being the "top tier" global airlines. It is just not compatible with the business environment that Ameri
79 Post contains images par13del : Wrong thread for this discussion, but can you think of other legislation or lack of legislation which allowed carriers to discriminate against worker
80 Viscount724 : But why choose 10 abreast when many carriers offer 9 abreast? And it's not just the statistical seat width. You put one more person in the same space
81 UAL747DEN : Major airlines in the US have already been left to die. Do you remember Pan Am? Eastern? Many airlines have come and gone over the years. Also you do
82 bobnwa : Most of the passengers on DL and UA originate in Australia on the LAX-SYD route . So there are many thousands of Australians giving there business to
83 BMI727 : To be able to offer cheaper seats. Braniff set the precedent. During regulation, the government would orchestrate a buyout for a struggling carrier.
84 deputydawghere : I agree. My United flights from SFO - SYD and SYD - LAX had no empty seats. Without a doubt, United is as good as Qantas on the U.S. - Australia rout
85 Viscount724 : All carriers have to offer competitive fares regardless of their seating density. EK isn't always the cheapest on the routes they fly.
86 AirCalSNA : It's interesting how uber-defensive the proponents of non-US carriers get at speculation/opinion that US legacy carriers are making a comeback. I thin
87 Post contains links Danny : Really? http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...nt/company_info/investor/stock.jsp Check Delta or United's results over 3 or 10 year period. One word:
88 Cubsrule : Your sentiment is understandable, but your verb tense is wrong - it should be the past tense. Could you list for me the airline bankruptcies filed af
89 UALWN : Uh? European high-yield passengers more ostentatious than Americans? I beg to differ.
90 Post contains images mariner : I'm actually quite sympathetic to your basic theme, at least on international service, but when you say have "retaken" the lead, it suggests they hav
91 mariner : LOL. As long as I've been an Australian, it has always been said that when Qantas sneezes, Canberra catches a cold. mariner
92 Viscount724 : You are overlooking that SQ's controlling shareholder with over 54% of the shares is Temasek Holdings, which represents the Singapore government's in
93 mayor : I don't think Spirit has gone the way of charging to go to the toilet, yet, or is researching making the pax stand up! I don't believe I've ever seen
94 DTWLAX : If that is the case, why are you even talking about US legacy carriers taking the lead in global aviation? If you are really talking about global avi
95 Post contains images XaraB : Probably. And I don't defend this way of artificially keeping a business afloat (artificial as in "no REAL investors want to pour their money into a
96 UAL747DEN : I agree, Qantas is a GREAT airline and I hope to enjoy a flight on their A380 next time I travel to SYD. People traveling between the US and Australi
97 deputydawghere : How about the two of us having a lengthy conversation about Delta's and United's financial statements so you can better substantiate your comment?[Ed
98 jfk777 : The only airline selling its 777-200(non ER) is Cathay because they were all purchased when the 777 first came out, these were used regionally in Asi
99 Post contains images mariner : It wasn't just one f/a and it isn't something that - I think - is fixable. Nor is it something that necessarily should be fixed. It has to do with na
100 goldenstate : Your description of the Chapter 11 process suggests a total lack of knowledge of why it exists, how it works, and what the legacy carriers did during
101 XaraB : You know, really well-run businesses make these changes *before* going bankrupt. Less well-run companies benefit from the extra protection Chapter 11
102 peanuts : This thread is pretty silly if you ask me. Lots of pride and half truths. It really is apples and oranges. I can appreciate US aviation, it's massive
103 BMI727 : For what it's worth, I did not find any of the Air France crews I dealt with snotty. Perhaps a bit more formal than their counterparts from BA or Nor
104 deputydawghere : Another post you obviously haven't done your homework on. How about A.I.G., Fannie Mae, Freddie Mack, Bear Stearns, most of the major banks in the U.
105 mariner : Each to their own, again. I said "apparent" snottiness. If you want to call it "formal", I'm happy. mariner
106 goldenstate : Sorry, but you also appear not to fully understand the Chapter 11 process. Not all changes made in Chapter 11 can be made prior to entry. UA and DL w
107 brilondon : I wish you would stop bashing the U.S. airports. Yes there are some real dogs. JFK, and LAX to name two but there are some great ones as well. DTW an
108 deputydawghere : Very well said and one of the reasons LCC's have done well in the U.S.
109 LDVAviation : The number of daily/weekly flights says otherwise. Which airline (UA or QF) operates the most daily flights, year-round? If UA were on an equal footi
110 AirCalSNA : I wasn't meaning to bash U.S. airports, if that's how it came out. I was responding to earlier posts bashing U.S. airports by saying that even if the
111 Post contains images koruman : I wrote that North American "First" class equates to international Premium Economy. I was wrong - in international Premium Economy a lack of in-seat
112 deputydawghere : Quoting koruman (Reply 111): On the Qantas flight it is free to check in a 50 pound suitcase (actually not free, but included - you have already bough
113 koruman : It's not just the loads. Look at the nightmare yields which the American carriers have to endure to fill their aircraft. Here are the current publish
114 par13del : So no price gouging, before competition the prices were probably much higher, what we need to look at is the profit margin.
115 merlot : A subtle but very valid point. Anectdotal of course, but I've found this generalization is true: take 3 equally paid and equally upper-middle-ranked
116 767er : I don't Qantas either. Like Koruman, I always fly Air New Zealand, even if it does mean flying viaAKL. It's classy and consistent and yes i do like t
117 mariner : I disagree. My experience suggests they are trying quite hard. I also disagree with your very generalized assessment of the American business attitud
118 deputydawghere : Wow. That's really impressive one travel agent's word is the 'end all.'
119 merlot : Isn't it more that they are trying to compete with each other versus any realistic attempt for, as an example, UA trying to compete with SQ or EK in
120 koruman : I don't agree at all. I've just enjoyed a great stay at the St Regis Monarch Beach in southern California, and thanked God that Americans like the Ri
121 mariner : No. I am not native born Australian. I was not brought up in Australia. I don't regard Raffles as the epitome of luxury. I can think of half a dozen
122 LAXintl : Price is the most important single driver in travel selection in the US. Airlines barely compete on service. Its the bottom line price that sells sea
123 Cubsrule : I don't know that that's true. For folks in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Miami, Washington, and Boston (i.e. 6 of our 10 largest metropolitan area
124 koruman : Mariner, this is where we differ. PS First Class is a world class product, except for the fact that there is no proper AVOD but rather a personal med
125 goldenstate : This may come as a shock to some people but this is a common behavior in any market economy, not just the U.S. Do you have any factual data to back u
126 panamair : You may want to do a little more research into this. In your posted link, the largest shareholder in SIA is Temasek Holdings (54%). Temasek IS an arm
127 Post contains links and images LAXintl : You seem to enjoy comparing apples and oranges. LAX-JFK is not an international segment, but a domestic segment. And the UA p.s. business class offer
128 koruman : I recently flew Singapore Airlines on BNE-SIN, which is a flight about an hour shorter than ORD-HNL. My first comment is that Singapore Airlines aren
129 merlot : I guess we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Sure, some US carriers are offering a hard product that is comparable to world class best
130 koruman : I know what you're getting at, but LAX-JFK is not a short-haul sector, it is a six hour flight. And if I am paying a business class (cf First Class)
131 mayor : He stated "deregulated", did he not? Kind of changes your response, doesn't it?
132 UAL747DEN : I will be flying AF in the near future for a trip with my wife. We (I) decided to take AF out of JFK rather than going direct from DEN because I want
133 mariner : That never bothers me. Emirates offers me about a million channels and I don't care, it doesn't impress me. I can only watch one, and - usually - I h
134 Post contains images BMI727 : Actually there was a part I forgot. Towards the end of the flight back to New York, one of the flight attendants came by and thanked us for flying wi
135 koruman : You have just eloquently illustrated how standards have fallen in the last 15 years! In 1995 I worked in a junior capacity in Auckland, New Zealand,
136 koruman : Exactly. SYD-HNL and ORD-HNL and AKL-HNL are fairly similar in length Those of us in Australia and New Zealand have a CHOICE between going to HNL on
137 huaiwei : You may wish to do a little more research yourself. Cite me any instance where SQ has received any fiscal help from the government, including last ye
138 UAL747DEN : Give me a break, third world? Our laws protect our business against a foreign company coming in and fighting for our customers without our expenses.
139 Post contains images mariner : Wow. Youse all must have very much higher standards than I. I'm starting to feel like the poor country cousin. LOL. If I want to go somewhere, I'll g
140 brilondon : Quit picking on UA. They are the worst airline to fly anywhere. The new business class on DL would be comparable to Premium economy on any carrier in
141 Post contains images huaiwei : Which means US carriers have less incentives to innovate and increase their quality of service to be considered leaders in this field. Thanks for exp
142 koruman : Because US legislation prevents overseas carriers with higher service standards from entry into the market place, whereas in the EU, Australia and Ne
143 BMI727 : Not really. Looking back at old airliner cabins, I wouldn't have wanted to spend 14 hours in any Y class cabin. Even business class as recently as te
144 koruman : Sorry, but we are inadvertently at cross-purposes again. My assertion was that coach to HNL on QF or HA or NZ is a far more upmarket product than on
145 BMI727 : And longer legs. Three hours is about my limit in coach. I figure that if it isn't important enough to pony up the cash to fly business, it isn't imp
146 panamair : Did I say that SQ received fiscal help from the government recently? OP said that SQ was not an "arm of the government" and then proceded to show the
147 koruman : But I was responding to the question asked when this thread was started, namely "Have the USA Legacy Carriers Re-Taken The Lead?" I cannot off the to
148 mikey72 : That's an odd remark. BOAC, BEA and then BA built up its position in London/LHR over NINETY years. BA has had to compete with American carriers that
149 Post contains images XaraB : Excuse me? The three first of these received *recent* government bailouts, and I cannot find any history of them receiving any of this significantly
150 AirlineEcon : There is one very important dimension in which US legacies offer a "more valuable menu of services" than some of the other non-US carriers: flight fre
151 Post contains links huaiwei : Temasek Holdings, has investments in a whole portfolio of local and foreign companies, including major shareholdings in companies such as Bank Danamo
152 yenne09 : The problem that we have with the american legacy carriers is that they are prisonner of the USA market and they rely too much on themselves. They are
153 Post contains images par13del : Why is it a problem for Americans to look after their own, and provide services to their people? This is 2010, even the smallest of nations now have
154 tayser : Qantas frequencies on the big mainline routes: MEL-SYD 30 a day - 763/330 with the odd 737 SYD-BNE 25 a day - split 763/737 MEL-BNE 20 a day - 737 wi
155 Viscount724 : Y class in the old days (until the late 1970s or so) was quite acceptable, with 34 inch pitch virtually standard and much better inflight service tha
156 Viscount724 : You're very lucky to be a 16 to 20 year old student able to pay longhaul business class fares.
157 Post contains links huaiwei : Erm if you re-read his statement, he was referring to American airlines relying solely on business from domestic ops, while neglecting the internatio
158 blueleo65 : Thank you. I'm trying to bring rationality to this irrational thread. Some posters are living in a world of fantasy while others are in denial. The c
159 koruman : I think someone should paraphrase the assertion that: What he should have written is that in ANY industry it can only end in tears if you try to downg
160 AirlineEcon : Is W-fi only found in the US or is this another product characteristic in which US carriers lag behind the rest of the world? A-netting at 35,000 feet
161 usa330300 : The US airlines are great. Especially in safety and maintenance, which is where it really matters. I could care less if I have a cheese plate, but i d
162 MingToo : Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been supported by the US government since their inception because they have always been backed by the US government i
163 Kaiarahi : Do you have the incident statistics to prove this? Because the U.S. complains constantly about other countries doing the same thing. Then how about N
164 Post contains images mayor : It's amazing how snobbery can be confused for knowledge. Your assertion that the airlines file for bankruptcy "every few years" is just hogwash. CO d
165 usa330300 : Do your DD. This is common knowledge. Certainly not meant to be a slight against any one country, but it is the fact.
166 usa330300 : How do you know it isn't the result of hard work from his parents and they can afford to pay the fares? I'm glad in the US one can still work hard, h
167 SonomaFlyer : Something to keep in mind...with the advent of devices like the IPad, the fact UA's 744's have no individual video units in Y class isn't so important
168 MSYtristar : I guess I'm cut from a different mold. The thought of going to Australia or some other long haul destination in Y class isn't even a remote deterrent
169 Alias1024 : No, that's not what he should have written. We get it that you feel the US carriers don't provide a high enough level of service, but what you aren't
170 Post contains links deputydawghere : Quoting XaraB (Reply 149):Excuse me? The three first of these received *recent* government bailouts, and I cannot find any history of them receiving a
171 par13del : It was classified as a problem which I don't think it is, just a choice. Since most international ailines are allowed access with superior service th
172 Post contains images aviationmaster : The main difference I see when comparing the unique US market with the European and Asian markets is how non-US carriers - with a few exceptions - hav
173 Post contains images par13del : I would bet that the bulk of their operations are international which has higher margins and fares which allow them to subsidize domestic routes, fly
174 DTWLAX : You are comparing apples to oranges here.... ATL-SFO is a domestic route while ICN-SIN is international. Why dont you compare ICN-SIN on KE with ATL-
175 exFATboy : At the risk of sounding facetious...dude, what is your obsession with food? Americans are constantly blasted for being the "fattest people on earth",
176 UAL747DEN : Not odd at all thats completely different. This is a very simple basic concept, if you don't understand the difference between to two its not even wo
177 Post contains images XaraB : Ah well... If you look at my first post in this thread, I was chiming in to make a point of US businesses not being totally exposed to market forces
178 BMI727 : 34 inches sounds bigger than it is, for me at least. Having more stops en route might have made it more livable though. Like I said, I can't imagine
179 MaverickM11 : Yes really. Who is the #1 shareholder? It could be better, or it could be more of the same. It depends how much of the capacity was backfilled. Where
180 mariner : Despite the problems with the online travel sites - and your particular problems with Kayak - the system works, and obviously will work better when t
181 yenne09 : The only thing I tried to explain is that the USA is a special market in itself. What is difficult to explain to fellow American people is that world
182 mayor : Using that criteria, how about ATL? That terminal complex was built, post '75. As far as completely new airports, probably only DEN and DFW. Is MCI a
183 jfk777 : Hey where is Emirates goingt to get pilots for all those 777 ? If you were a young pilot what sounds better an MD-80 here in the Good'ole USA or a 77
184 blueleo65 : Thank you Alias1024, a much better response than I would have provided. No one is denying that there is a level of incompetency occurring at the corp
185 MaverickM11 : Everyone needs to remember that the US industry has been one of the largest and wealthiest markets for a long time, and it was also one of the first
186 AirNZ : Where/how does an EU and/or Asian carrier face less competition than a US carrier? Sorry, but that's the same old standby excuse.....the nonsensical
187 Viscount724 : There have been others. Two that come to mind: Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport (XNA) opened in 1998. Scheduled airlines previously serving Fayett
188 MaverickM11 : Everywhere. Just look at the top airports outside of the US and it's very clear that competition is nowhere near as strong, even though it is growing
189 yenne09 : Regarding major US airports, the first built for the jet age was Washington Dulles. I know for sure that a lot of them have been upgraded but how many
190 mariner : Whoa. It wasn't all beer and skittles. Yes, Pan Am and TWA, and BOAC and Air France, etc, offered very good service - for the time. But that's not sa
191 Post contains images exFATboy : Oh, I can, of course I guess it also depends on who's waiting for you at the other end! Seriously, though, I few EWR-HKG in coach and it wasn't that
192 BMI727 : Well, that is a really bad time for a blood clot don't you think?
193 mariner : A summer promotion, but not just in NYC, to introduce as many pax as possible to the concept. In some ways it has been almost too successful, because
194 Kaiarahi : Common knowledge - really? Not to the rest of the world. Think Australia, South Africa, Germany, UK, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Belgium, Canad
195 MillwallSean : This constant claim about the US having more competition is just not backed up by facts. Europe has more legacies. They have huge ones like the LH Gro
196 thefuture : The legacy's finally seem to realise that they've got to cut capacity & the idea of expansion at any cost, is insane, at least in current economy.
197 Post contains links mariner : You're a couple of years behind the times. From 2008: http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/1...-to-8-in-2009-plans-voluntary-job/ "Delta to cut capacit
198 Cubsrule : Let's look at the ten largest metropolitan areas in the United States, and let's examine how many airlines have single airport operations greater tha
199 UAL747DEN : Vodka = Fine Ambien = EVIL Ambien = 4 Felonies and a misdemeanor + waking up in booking! (Charges dropped, thank god!)
200 koruman : Would you like to withdraw that assertion before I demolish it? I think that it is fair to describe a nation as an entity which issues its own passpo
201 BMI727 : Or could it be that Americans are just more concerned with price than other people and aren't willing to pay for all the extra bells and whistles? Lo
202 Cubsrule : What, exactly, prohibits competition on quality in the United States?
203 MaverickM11 : All of these places only have one network carrier each; Australia might have a second in the near future. Regardless of whether the US is protectioni
204 Post contains images exFATboy : Ah, my error on the intra-EU, although I'd point out no US airline has really jumped on the chance...given the vast competition between Euro legacies
205 Post contains links mariner : There's a lot of "holier than thou" coming from some of the non-US posters. LOL. Europeans may tout their great legacies, but British is in deep doo-
206 koruman : I may be based in Australia, but in the USA in the next three months I have already bought six non-stop Coach return tickets and six one-stop First Cl
207 BMI727 : I don't see why Americans need to make apologies for caring more about price. There are plenty of carriers that offer a domestic first class cabin, a
208 Viscount724 : They use the BA brand under a franchise agreement, but the carrier is Comair, not British Airways. BA only has a 10.9% financial interest in Comair a
209 UAL747DEN : Yeah my little "incident" was me sleep-driving after I took Ambien. I went to bed with my wife and woke up in jail! I had no memory at all of what ha
210 koruman : Any foreign entrant into the US domestic market would have no pension liabilities and could choose its cost-base. They could also choose their routes
211 Viscount724 : Only EU-based carriers can operate domestic services within a single EU country. The US-EU Open Skies agreement permits 5th freedom rights, but only
212 MaverickM11 : No foreign entity in their right, sane mind would want to enter the US market. VX inexplicably wanted to, and they're having their arse handed to the
213 Cubsrule : How is that different from VX?
214 exFATboy : Have already corrected my error on US airlines being allowed to offer intra-EU service. The rest of your examples (except for Open Skies) don't invol
215 thefuture : Sorry to clarify, meant to say drastic cuts. It's getting harder & much more expensive to fly eg. LAX/YVR Looks like a lot of flights but then yo
216 koruman : Believe it or not, to a great extent I agree with you. I think that the big problem in Europe which is letting the LCCs run amok is that each major c
217 par13del : Now you appreciate one of the differences of the US market versus the EU market for example, the US does not constrain competition by having slot res
218 mariner : It isn't proven to me that Americans do care more about price. Or at least - any more than anyone else, those squillions of Euro's who fly Ryanair, f
219 Post contains images exFATboy : You never have a sandwich (I'm talking a nice sub here) for dinner? Must be nice to be rich... More seriously, though, I think you're just not realiz
220 exFATboy : Well, to some extent VX's financial woes are just from being in the "growing pains" stage, and having the bad luck to be in that state during the cur
221 Danny : Just because the government is a shareholder does not make the airline a government agency. The are publicly traded enterprise operating on normal co
222 Post contains images XaraB : MillwallSean is correct. Hardly anybody can criticize Chapter 11 for distorting the free market without extending the same criticism to their home ca
223 RJ111 : Uggh here we go again... BA have tried these routes and they're unprofitable. You can't compare EK to BA because EK have the luxary of having a fanta
224 koruman : I can't believe that people still trot out that sort of dated line after BMI found its trans-Atlantic services from LHR to be less financially viable
225 SA7700 : This thread will be locked as it has run its course and effectively veered into an off-topic debate. Please note that any posts added to the thread af
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