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St. Louis Airport Thread #1.   
User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Recently there has been a little news about our briar patch of an airport, so I figured I'd start a general discussion thread.

The St. Louis Business Journal posted a nice piece about St. Louis landing fees being sky high which can be read here:

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlan...siness_travel/story/biz/18071.html

For one I never knew it was quite that bad. For those who know what kind of air cargo facilities are being added? I heard $50 million? If that can entice more cargo to ease operating costs that would be nice.

Also, Reagan service was added effective 10/30. The link is posted below.

http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2010/07/26/daily41.html

I use Reagan quite a bit and now that I'm a skymiles member I hope to use this a lot, but the fares are outrageous if anyone hasn't noticed. I guess Delta's pricing strategy is just to gouge on this route? Round trips that I've seen early on are in the $450-600 range. I don't think I can justify using that over BWI.....

I for one am happy to see DCA service started though. It was a needed addition and the schedule is perfect for those needing a well timed night DCA departure (7:00 PM). Hopefully we'll see Delta add Florida destinations and Los Angeles before too long. I can't help but think they'd do well on some routes like Tampa, Jacksonville, or Fort Lauderdale.

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2834 posts, RR: 45
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting lambertman (Thread starter):
I use Reagan quite a bit and now that I'm a skymiles member I hope to use this a lot, but the fares are outrageous if anyone hasn't noticed. I guess Delta's pricing strategy is just to gouge on this route? Round trips that I've seen early on are in the $450-600 range. I don't think I can justify using that over BWI.....

There is obviously a market premium for a nonstop flight to DCA. Just because the fares are high doesn't mean an airline is gouging the customer. If there are enough customers who are willing to buy the tickets at the high prices to make a route viable for any carrier, they won't charge less. If an insufficient number of people are willing to pay the premium, then they will either lower the ticket prices to stimulate demand or exit the market. It's supply and demand. Obviously it's not worth it to you to pay the premium, and that's your choice. My choice would be to skip the hassles of BWI (unless I actually want to end up in Baltimore) and Southwest and pay the extra to get to where I really want to go.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1729 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Quoting lambertman (Thread starter):
I use Reagan quite a bit and now that I'm a skymiles member I hope to use this a lot, but the fares are outrageous if anyone hasn't noticed. I guess Delta's
pricing strategy is just to gouge on this route? Round trips that I've seen early on are in the $450-600 range. I don't think I can justify using that over BWI.....

For the most part, I have been seeing DL exactly matching AA's non-stop price (not surprising). That seems to be available for a lot of dates in the ballpark of $260-$280 round-trip, but there are select periods that are in the range you mention. I specifically noticed higher fares the week of Thanksgiving, for instance. I wonder if those higher fares are due to various events that are spiking demand?


User currently offlinestl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting lambertman (Thread starter):
I use Reagan quite a bit and now that I'm a skymiles member I hope to use this a lot, but the fares are outrageous if anyone hasn't noticed. I guess Delta's pricing strategy is just to gouge on this route? Round trips that I've seen early on are in the $450-600 range. I don't think I can justify using that over BWI.....

I just looked at fares today and they are offering roundtrip flights at $263.

Does anyone know if they are going to be adding any gates at Lambert. Currently they operate out of 5 gates on the A concourse (A2,3,4,6 and 8), with the fall schedule they will have 8 flights departing between 6:00am and 7am.

Also when does Lambert begin the modernization of Concourse A and C?


User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Quoting stl1326 (Reply 3):
I just looked at fares today and they are offering roundtrip flights at $263.

Weird. Yesterday it was coming up at like $600. Today, like you said, the fares are at $250-300. Likely a mistake on my part but a welcome one. I was beginning to wonder why anyone would pay that.

As far as the gate situation, taking over A10 and 12 is a reasonable move. They could use the space now and if they have any intention of adding future service they will definitely need it. I think its possible it could grow to a 50 flight a day station at its peak.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 1):
There is obviously a market premium for a nonstop flight to DCA. Just because the fares are high doesn't mean an airline is gouging the customer. If there are enough customers who are willing to buy the tickets at the high prices to make a route viable for any carrier, they won't charge less. If an insufficient number of people are willing to pay the premium, then they will either lower the ticket prices to stimulate demand or exit the market. It's supply and demand. Obviously it's not worth it to you to pay the premium, and that's your choice. My choice would be to skip the hassles of BWI (unless I actually want to end up in Baltimore) and Southwest and pay the extra to get to where I really want to go.

I shouldn't have used the term gouging. Wasn't the correct verbiage, but you get the premise.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2834 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 4):
I shouldn't have used the term gouging. Wasn't the correct verbiage, but you get the premise.

No problem! I totally understand your premise, I just don't agree with it.  


User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2349 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

what happened to the talk of DL creating some sort of focus city at STL? are those rumors still circulating? Would they ever move over to C where there is some more room to grow over there?

I still miss the AA hub, connecting through there was a breeze...  

I would like to see Southwest grow some more. perhaps see D remodeled in some fashion and Southwest add some gates there. Would be nice to see a 100 flight a day or more station there. Sounds like they have become quite busy there lately.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3746 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

I flew into Lambert on Tuesday, arrived at 12PM on LAX-STL and there was not a single aircraft parked at C concourse. It really drove home how far this airport has fallen.

I try to stay loyal to AA, but DL is putting up some strong competition. I'll be flying DL to RSW for labor day as they were that much cheaper than AA.



PHX based
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1729 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 6):
what happened to the talk of DL creating some sort of focus city at STL? are those rumors still circulating? Would they ever move over to C where there is some more room to grow over there?

From the rumors I've read in various places, the airport isn't very keen on the idea of letting DL out of its current A lease even if it means taking a larger number of gates on a different concourse. That does seem kind of silly, but I certainly don't have any inside information to know the reasoning (if it's even true). Regardless, the natural first step would be for DL to take on A10 and A12 for full-time use if they need more space.

As far as the "focus city" goes, I suspect that the immediate future for STL with DL would be to get flights to its established focus operations in addition to hubs - which already is in motion with the additions of LGA and DCA. The rumors that DL is considering STL-LAX point in that direction as well. I've also read that DL has been making phone calls and having meetings with high level medallion members that are based in STL to get their thoughts. Additionally, apparently they are considering a concept for adding a SkyClub in the former NW crew lounge next to A3.

Obviously there's a lot of conjecture, but the combination of the above elements at least indicates that DL sees something in STL and is seriously considering its options.


User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 7):
I flew into Lambert on Tuesday, arrived at 12PM on LAX-STL and there was not a single aircraft parked at C concourse. It really drove home how far this airport has fallen.

Yeah, its a bit dreary but AA closing up shop was a borderline necessity. When every timetable came out you were just hoping that more flights weren't cut with no hope for any additions. P

Quoting steex (Reply 8):
The rumors that DL is considering STL-LAX point in that direction as well. I've also read that DL has been making phone calls and having meetings with high level medallion members that are based in STL to get their thoughts. Additionally, apparently they are considering a concept for adding a SkyClub in the former NW crew lounge next to A3.

I think Los Angeles would be interesting twice daily. The capacity is probably there to make it work.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 9):
I think Los Angeles would be interesting twice daily. The capacity is probably there to make it
work.

It would depend on the AA response, I think. I won't say that LAX won't work, but it will be harder than DCA or LGA. It's a long flight, has more capacity and much worse yields than DCA, and is actually a smaller market than WAS (just slightly).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1729 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 9):
I think Los Angeles would be interesting twice daily. The capacity is probably there to make it work.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
It would depend on the AA response, I think. I won't say that LAX won't work, but it will be harder than DCA or LGA. It's a long flight, has more capacity and much worse yields than DCA, and is actually a smaller market than WAS (just slightly).

As Cubsrule notes, STL-LAX seems like it would be a tougher nut to crack than LGA or DCA. A few years ago, AA managed to run WN off the route - now they're back. Adding DL to the mix makes it a 3 horse race. Judging by other non-hubs that have gotten LAX service from DL (places like CMH, RDU, BDL), I can't really envision DL going beyond a daily 319 if they decide to try STL-LAX. Even then, they may need WN or AA to blink for it to work, and DL's recent history at LAX wouldn't make me optimistic that they would stick it out.


User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

I'm in on this topic yay! We need a STL thread for sure!!!

Quoting lambertman (Thread starter):
now that I'm a skymiles member
Quoting stl1326 (Reply 3):
5 gates on the A concourse (A2,3,4,6 and 8)
Quoting lambertman (Reply 4):
taking over A10 and 12 is a reasonable move.

Delta has already taken over A10, and I saw DL signage on A12 when I flew out of STL. The 6:40am flight STL-MSP is usually scheduled out of A10.

A6 is not being used anymore due to construction, unless they finished that. I wonder if A10 is for replacing A6 at the moment?

With LGA and DCA coming into the mix at 4 each, that's another gate worth, assume 8 flights per gate on average for Delta.

It would be nice to see a STL-LAX because everytime I check overseas flights transpac on Delta, it routes me through LAX but I also have to be re routed through MEM or DTW or ATL. That involves a double connect, it's easy to fly east overseas because of the JFK connection. Now through LAX it involves a double connect so a once or twice daily STL-LAX would help Delta I would think plus any OD that flies on the route. Unless Delta is planning to codeshare with Alaska Airlines STL-SEA and send them on AS Metal through SEA overseas when going trans pacific?

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 6):
what happened to the talk of DL creating some sort of focus city at STL? are those rumors still circulating? Would they ever move over to C where there is some more room to grow over there?

Based on news article Delta downplayed and even denied the story of a "focus" city or a "hub" for STL but admitted they were surveying possibilities of adding more flights (thus DCA).

Does anyone see a Saturday only STL-MCO perhaps from Delta? AA dropped it, WN stays at 3 flights for Sat, and Air Tran has 1 flight too.

Would be great to see a Club in STL!

I am flying Delta round trip to ANC and back, and flying them to JFK also in Sept. I just enjoy their schedule and product a bit more than AA now.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

What about continuations of either LGA or DCA to LAX on an E175 twice a day? An E175 could be a good plane for the route. One could arrive a little earlier in the day to connect to NRT and one arriving later in the evening to connect to SYD and HND?

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2457 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3218 times:

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 6):
what happened to the talk of DL creating some sort of focus city at STL? are those rumors still circulating?

Yes.

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 6):
Would they ever move over to C where there is some more room to grow over there?

No. It all comes down to that money, money. They want STL to pay for the move. STL wants them to pay for the move. Neither are budging.

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 6):
I still miss the AA hub,

I don't. I miss the Red and Whites more.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 13):
An E175 could be a good plane for the route.

While not a STL-specific problem, Delta may have trouble running Connection aircraft on these p2p routes against lower CASM aircraft operated by competitors; on routes with an incumbent carrier (especially where that incumbent has been around for some time), Delta isn't going to have much pricing power. Fare levels that make money on WN 73Gs may not be enough to make money on 175s.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemrstl From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 468 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

DL will begin using a 757 on the 6am STL-ATL, beginning Nov 1st, all remaining frequencies to ATL are on MD-88s (if the schedule holds), also DL has put their flight numbers 9098/9096 on the AS STL-SEA/SEA-STL so I assume they are codesharing?

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1729 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Quoting mrstl (Reply 16):
DL has put their flight numbers 9098/9096 on the AS STL-SEA/SEA-STL so I assume they are codesharing?

That's correct, DL is codesharing on the AS flight to SEA and will be handling it at their gates in the A concourse. In fact, if you use itasoftware or similar search engines, they will turn up DCA-STL-SEA itineraries all on the DL code (though generally seem to be more expensive than through the hubs). It seems that AA is not codesharing on the AS flight.


User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 14):
No. It all comes down to that money, money. They want STL to pay for the move. STL wants them to pay for the move. Neither are budging.

That's interesting. They just re-did gate A-6 to bring in larger aircraft but are talking about a move? Seems counterproductive. It would make sense to move them into nicer facilities, however.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
It would depend on the AA response, I think. I won't say that LAX won't work, but it will be harder than DCA or LGA. It's a long flight, has more capacity and much worse yields than DCA, and is actually a smaller market than WAS (just slightly).

Yeah I still believe it would work though. Funny I say that because I was the one saying that LAX was supposed to be dropped by AA come fall. You wonder if Delta could cause them to drop it though. Its not like they've defended St.Louis tooth and nail in the past.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 4):
Weird. Yesterday it was coming up at like $600. Today, like you said, the fares are at $250-300. Likely a mistake on my part but a welcome one. I was beginning to wonder why anyone would pay that.

This has more to do with the known Delta IT bugs than anything else. I have had the same thing happen on other Delta trips out of other cities. When you get a price like that on a flight a month or so out, call. Or check back. It might be right--but probably isn't.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 18):
Yeah I still believe it would work though.

Unless I am a Skymiles slave (and there aren't many of those in STL), what's the incentive for me to fly DL to LAX rather than AA or WN?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):

Unless I am a Skymiles slave (and there aren't many of those in STL), what's the incentive for me to fly DL to LAX rather than AA or WN?

No more than the incentive if you are an AAdvantage Member or a Rapid Reward Member. If Delta feels strongly they can pull enough people to make them fly DL non stop STL-LAX and are price competitive then why not?

Also wanted to bump this thread to announce SWA is returning STL-SEA to one daily as of November. This brings WN's total flights a day to 84 now, 1 up.

Internally, I have discovered WN is hiring more CSA's and Op Agents and looking into adding more gates at STL for "more flights" coming in. I CAN confirm on WN's internal website that I can see STL is hiring more CSA's at the moment. They are conducting interviews for Ops Agents too.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 21):

Also wanted to bump this thread to announce SWA is returning STL-SEA to one daily as of November. This brings WN's total flights a day to 84 now, 1 up.

I was hoping that wouldn't happen. I imagine the early bookings have been good so it has returned, but with AS now in town I'd prefer them have the route to themselves to ensure the greatest chance of success.

I say this just because I want the new carriers to succeed and well, we need some diversity. I don't think anyone will argue with that.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5713 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting lambertman (Reply 22):
I say this just because I want the new carriers to succeed and well, we need some diversity. I don't think anyone will argue with that.

Amen...Lambert has had a bad time with AA and the other airlines are finally doing a little bit here and there. While STL might not see another hub the size of TWA again, it is still a very vital facility to most, if not all the airlines there.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinetsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

I'm surprised that no other airlines rushed in to pick up the slack when AA dropped STL as a hub. It seems like a perfect location to me--smack in the middle of the country. Of course, I don't know much about this sort of thing, but as a St. Louis native, I'd love to see Lambert reverse its fortunes.

25 atrude777 : I am biased, rooting for WN of course, anytime they can add service in STL, helps STL, and my former co workers However, I think AS and WN are seeing
26 BMI727 : I hope so, because the SEA-STL market probably won't sustain two flights during the low season by itself. Those probably won't be much of a boost dur
27 atrude777 : Can't forget the small cities in the Pacific Northwest that doesn't have WN, and can book AS/Horizon and connect in SEA onward to STL too and other D
28 BMI727 : My speculation would be that the change probably has to do with how thin the AS fleet is stretched and they had to rearrange things.
29 Cubsrule : No, other than the fact that passengers who fly AA or WN already are likely to continue to do so. It's more about being a new entrant than about anyt
30 lambertman : That's possible but it still affects pricing strategy and will dilute some of the yields on the route. If a passenger is looking to go to Seattle and
31 CIDflyer : that would be great! I would love to see STL become a large connecting station for SWA like MDW and DEN, with over 100 flights a day. Wouldnt take to
32 atrude777 : Twice Daily. I think they are trying to figure out 22/24 and even 30 without actually encroaching into the D Concourse. If WN can't do MDW-JAX..not s
33 Cubsrule : They sure do. They've probably flown it since November-ish.
34 atrude777 : It started January 10th, 2010 same day STL-MSP started as well. I was on the inaugural flight STL-BOS. BOS was started for WN August 16th, 2009. Alex
35 Cubsrule : I don't know that it's a matter of being unable to do MDW-JAX - they've never tried. MDW-JAX just works really well as a one stop for a variety of re
36 OzarkD9S : There is some AB-InBev corporate traffic IIRC. Enough to make it worthwhile? Who knows...
37 stl1326 : I'm a little surprised they are bringing this flight back now that Alaska Airlines is adding service in September. Although Southwest's new schedule
38 777STL : A very minuscule amount and surely not enough to support even an RJ. The only facility AB has in Jacksonville is a medium sized brewery. There's like
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