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DL To Start JFK-SNA On 7 September 2010  
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5274 times:
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With all the talk about nonstop service between Orange County, John Wayne (SNA) and JFK, DL plans on starting service on 7 September 2010. Like other new JFK flights from the West Coast they have decided to fly the eastbound leg to JFK in the early afternoon and the westbound fto SNA in the early morning. It seems they want to gain business traffic on this route vs international. After AA, TW and HP flew this route with 757s and eventually canceled this route, DL will be flying the best suited long haul a/c from SNA, the 73G (on DL known as the 73W).
Link: http://airlineroute.net/2010/08/02/dl-jfksna/#more-23277

As well know, CO is the sole player in the New York/Newark-SNA market. I think DL does have a chance with this route sicne they are using a smaller 73G(W) vs the larger 757 on this route. If it does well, perhaps we'll see a 73H one day, but I feel this will remain a 73W.

Thoughts?
LACA773

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3168 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

The problem with this route is the timing . . . again!

JFK is an int'l airport. You have to have a really good reason to have a flight there that doesn't connect to the int'l bank.

DL used to do a PDX turn like this too. But that turn connected to the Asian hub in PDX. Once that hub ceased, the flight was re-timed to connect to the European hub in NYC.

2 flights a day on 737s would be more beneficial to cover business and int'l connections. But what do I know?

I predict this flight will be re-timed at some point in an effort to save it from cancellation.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9070 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4940 times:

Quoting laca773 (Thread starter):

As well know, CO is the sole player in the New York/Newark-SNA market. I think DL does have a chance with this route sicne they are using a smaller 73G(W) vs the larger 757 on this route. If it does well, perhaps we'll see a 73H one day, but I feel this will remain a 73W.

Don't believe the 800 can do it.



yep.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7126 posts, RR: 87
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

This was discussed very recently in this forum and CO takes a lot of traffic. DL won't last.   

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24307 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Was discussed a few months ago when announced.

Delta is cancelling DTW-SNA and using that slot for the new JFK flight.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 2):

If they use it on SAN-JFK im pretty sure they can use it for SNA

Quoting fxramper (Reply 3):

Why would DL not last? If Co is the only one right now flying to the new York area directly from SNA I think DL will have a very good chance


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9070 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 5):

If they use it on SAN-JFK im pretty sure they can use it for SNA

SNA has a 5,700ft runway and you have to do a high take off due to noise abatement.

SAN has a 9,400ft runway and AFAIK no noise abatement rules.

Also there are AFAIK no 738/320 SNA flights east of IAH/DFW.



yep.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7126 posts, RR: 87
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4614 times:

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 5):
Why would DL not last? If Co is the only one right now flying to the new York area directly from SNA I think DL will have a very good chance

Don't shoot the messenger.

Go back and read the thread discussing this a few months back. CO does 3-4 n/s and the offer a superior product.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4792 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4540 times:
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Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
JFK is an int'l airport. You have to have a really good reason to have a flight there that doesn't connect to the int'l bank

May be true of destinations that can be served out of LGA, but there are multiple West Coast destinations outside of the perimeter rule which have to go to JFK (if a nonstop is desired), so a domestic traveler who wants a nonstop out to SNA really has no choice but to go to JFK (just like PDX, SEA, SFO, LAX, SAN).

Quoting fxramper (Reply 7):
CO does 3-4 n/s and the offer a superior product

CO certainly wins on frequency, but superior product? With free food in Y going away, what other product differentiator will there be? Both will be using the 73G (or "73W" designation in DL's case) in domestic configuration, and DL will also have nose-to-tail AVOD PTVs (don't know if all of CO's 73Gs are equipped yet?). DL will also have hot meals both ways in F, so I'm not sure how CO will be much better....


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16688 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 2):
Don't believe the 800 can do it.

Does DL have any 737-800s with the short field package, I know CO has a few.

Quoting panamair (Reply 8):
With free food in Y going away, what other product differentiator will there be?

Complimentary meals at mealtime will continue to be offered on trans-Con flights domestically;

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....-newsArticle&ID=1402376&highlight=

Quoting panamair (Reply 8):
and DL will also have nose-to-tail AVOD PTVs (don't know if all of CO's 73Gs are equipped yet?).

So far 13 of 36 CO 73G's have Directv installed.

http://www.continental.com/web/en-us...rtainment/directv/fleetstatus.aspx



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4792 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4448 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Complimentary meals at mealtime will continue to be offered on trans-Con flights domestically;

Press release said domestic flights over 6 hours, but do all transcons count? Looking at EWR-SNA in September, one out of three is blocked at less than 6hrs while SNA-EWR are all naturally blocked for less than 6.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16688 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 10):
Press release said domestic flights over 6 hours, but do all transcons count? Looking at EWR-SNA in September, one out of three is blocked at less than 6hrs while SNA-EWR are all naturally blocked for less than 6.

Every time I look it up 2 out of the three daily flights are over six hours (5.59, 6.03, 6.12),



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2355 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4319 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Complimentary meals at mealtime will continue to be offered on trans-Con flights domestically;
Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Press release said domestic flights over 6 hours, but do all transcons count?

I read this to mean free meals on IAH/EWR-HNL and IAH-ANC. I would be very surprised if EWR-West Coast transcons get free meals, especially in light of the UA merger.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 7):
CO does 3-4 n/s and the offer a superior product.
Quoting panamair (Reply 8):
DL will also have hot meals both ways in F, so I'm not sure how CO will be much better....

CO has a standard transcon F hot meal on EWR-SNA, which is closer in quality to DL's premium BusinessElite service b/w SFO/LAX-JFK. Other than that, the products are essentially interchangeable. I don't think one is dramatically better than the other, aside from the fact that CO's 3 daily flights (during the week) offer superior frequency. I am quite certain that it will be easier for me to score upgrades as a DL PM on JFK-SNA than it will be for me as a CO PE on EWR-SNA.


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 6):

Your rigt sorry I always forget about the noise issue.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 7):

They have more frequency which will help them but CO has a superior product? DL is the one with AVOD in every
Seat which is a big difference. DL has a good BOB selection in the main cabin and CO will be moving away from coach meals I've heard. I think CO frequency make CO win but product wise DL seems to be better


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2355 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 12):

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Press release said domestic flights over 6 hours, but do all transcons count?
Quoting panamair (Reply 10):
Press release said domestic flights over 6 hours, but do all transcons count?


I failed to properly attribute this quotation. Apologies.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9070 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):

Does DL have any 737-800s with the short field package, I know CO has a few.

Not sure, DL's 737-832s have AFAIK higher thrust engines than CO (24K vs 26K.)

The only aircraft that *may* be able to do NYC-SNA n/s both ways is AAs(27K engines) but even then i don't think so.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):

So far 13 of 36 CO 73G's have Directv installed.

http://www.continental.com/web/en-us...rtainment/directv/fleetstatus.aspx

While 80+ channels of DTV is nice, i would rather have the free 15ish Channels and in F the free AVOD+TV.

Plus DL's wifi is nice(but they need power ports in Y......i *hope* that comes with the new IFE.)

But IMHO both products could use some work, but they are about the same.



yep.
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

I think that it is a good idea, but won't that take away pax from their LAX-JFK flights. I think that it will do well, because I am fairly sure that people that live down there would much rather fly out of SNA than LAX.


The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlinemcmax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Coinciding with DL's new SNA-JFK flight on September 7 is the discontinuation of SNA-DTW (inherited from NW) on September 6.

http://www.ocregister.com/travel/airport-259946-county-orange.html

[edit to add the link with the source]

[Edited 2010-08-02 13:21:26]


De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9070 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting mcmax (Reply 17):
Coinciding with DL's new SNA-JFK flight on September 7 is the discontinuation of SNA-DTW (inherited from NW) on September 6.

No, DL started DTW-SNA.
Also DTW-SMF ends on the 16th of this month.



yep.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5221 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Quoting laca773 (Thread starter):
Like other new JFK flights from the West Coast they have decided to fly the eastbound leg to JFK in the early afternoon and the westbound fto SNA in the early morning.


Correction laca'. Most of the new JFK transcons from the w/c have started as red-eyes e/b and evening w/b flights; I know SAN and PDX - the most recent transcons, I think -- were this way. Within a year or so, the flights were re-timed as early morning w/c departures -- for perfect intl bank connections -- and evening w/b returns (also great for inbound intl conex.)

Unless there are gate usage issues or some sort of RON restrictions at SNA, I would expect DL will (eventually) do the same thing at John Wayne.

I personally think the DL will service will do fine, especially once the flights are re-timed.

bb


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2355 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
Not sure, DL's 737-832s have AFAIK higher thrust engines than CO (24K vs 26K.)

I am getting a strange feeling of deja-vu.

CO's 737-800s are rated at 26,300lb of thrust, same as DL. DL's 73G, on the other hand (26k), is rated higher than CO's 73G (24k). All of CO's 737-800s are fitted with winglets, which do improve takeoff performance slightly. CO also has at least 20 737-800s with the Short Field Performance package, with all future deliveries to include it as well.

At any rate, even the highest thrust variants of the CFM56-7B series would have trouble lifting a 737-800 on SNA-JFK/EWR while carrying a respectable payload.


User currently offlinemcmax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 18):
No, DL started DTW-SNA.

Actually, NW flew SNA-DTW before the merger with DL. DL discontinued the flight after the merger. DL restarted the SNA-DTW flight last summer.



De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24307 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 19):
Unless there are gate usage issues or some sort of RON restrictions at SNA, I would expect DL will (eventually) do the same thing at John Wayne.

Per slot awards, Delta is entitled to 2 gate, and 2 hard stand RON spots nightly.
At the moment these are spoken for, so unless they modify other current skeds, I think JFK is stuck.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9070 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting mcmax (Reply 21):

Actually, NW flew SNA-DTW before the merger with DL. DL discontinued the flight after the merger. DL restarted the SNA-DTW flight last summer.

Ok that may be right.....all i know is DL moved CVG-SNA to DTW. It *was* going to be with the 73W but they changed it to the 319.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):

I am getting a strange feeling of deja-vu.

Me too

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):

CO's 737-800s are rated at 26,300lb of thrust, same as DL.

Ok, what about the 900/900ERs? (for some reason I'm thinking CO has a *big* 737NG with 24s)

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):
DL's 73G, on the other hand (26k), is rated higher than CO's 73G (24k)

right.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):
All of CO's 737-800s are fitted with winglets, which do improve takeoff performance slightly.

DL should be close to having all of its 800s done now, but i'm not sure just how many they have without winglets

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):
CO also has at least 20 737-800s with the Short Field Performance package, with all future deliveries to include it as well.

no idea if DL has any with or with out it.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 20):

At any rate, even the highest thrust variants of the CFM56-7B series would have trouble lifting a 737-800 on SNA-JFK/EWR while carrying a respectable payload.

agreed. Like i said AA would have the best chance but even then i don't believe they have anything other than the 57 that can do it full PAX/cargo.



yep.
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2355 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 23):
Ok, what about the 900/900ERs? (for some reason I'm thinking CO has a *big* 737NG with 24s)

All of CO's 737-800/900/900ER share the same engine, the CFM56-7B26, rated at 26,300lbs of thrust each.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 23):
DL should be close to having all of its 800s done now, but i'm not sure just how many they have without winglets

Not quite yet. I flew a roundtrip EWR-ATL last week without winglets on two different ships.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 23):
no idea if DL has any with or with out it.

I don't believe DL has ordered this package for any aircraft.


25 Post contains images laca773 : . Thanks Panamair. Currently, CO's inflight product is slightly above DL's because of the hot snack service they offer, but this is coming to an end.
26 CODC10 : SFP is a series of improvements installed on 737-800s as an option to align them more closely with the takeoff and landing performance of a 737-700.
27 aerobalance : Hopefully, the competition from DL will lower the price premium that CO charges for departing from SNA instead of LAX. Not too much trouble to go to L
28 laca773 : It should drop it at least in the begining. I'm going to be interested to see if DL will keep this a p.m. eastbound departure and early a.m. westboun
29 SANFan : Laca', did you see LAXintl's post regarding timing of the DL service? I'm sure DL wants to do a RON with the a/c so they can leave SNA early in the m
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