columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6802 posts, RR: 5 Posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9262 times:
Big "IF", but what if Lufthansa Cargo will decide to phase out the MD 11 sooner then originally planned, what would be the replacement:
747-8F Pro: Commonality with 747-8I Fleet, Nose Door Cargo
Con: Too big, that is why LH decided against the the 747-400F but opted for the MD 11 instead
777F Pro: Efficient twin engine aircraft with big payload and great range, already in service with Aero Logic
Con: ??
A330-200F Pro: Efficient twin, commonality with passenger A330/A340 fleet
Con: Maybe too small
The most likely candidate seems to be the 777F, what are your thoughts ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2469 posts, RR: 21 Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9254 times:
they could go two ways... begin obtaining 777F's or divert the cargo to Aero Logic and phase out cargo operations gradually.
propilot83 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 545 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9078 times:
Quoting 328JET (Reply 2): The replacement is already ordered.
Take a look at the orders for AeroLogic.
The website is in German, can you translate what kind of aircraft they've ordered and how many?
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9004 times:
Quoting columba (Thread starter): 777F Pro: Efficient twin engine aircraft with big payload and great range, already in service with Aero Logic
Con: ??
Con: Price tag and capacity needs to be filled.
How about A350F?
Pro: Very very efficient twin with good payload/range chart.
Con: Still some years away from EIS.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26726 posts, RR: 83 Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8712 times:
Quoting 328JET (Reply 6): This is really way too much heavy metal for AeroLogic...
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2469 posts, RR: 21 Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8698 times:
Quoting 328JET (Reply 6): This is really way too much heavy metal for AeroLogic...
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7): Maybe they plan to expand their operations?
I think Lufthansa is stepping away from the freight business in favor of Aero Logic... the transition will probably take a few years...
keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8672 times:
3 yrs ago I suggested switching the 8i orders for 8F might be a win win for both Boeing and Lufthansa. Boeing could invest their resources in more profitable programs, Lufthansa would not take the risk of becoming sole operator of the 8i.
Most were very optimistic on the -8 then. More orders would follow, Boeing said so. I wonder if it was sucha bad idea in hindsight, the rest of the pack seems to survive without the -8i.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26726 posts, RR: 83 Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8630 times:
Well more orders for the 747-8I did follow, so maybe LH and Boeing did make the correct decision in staying with the model and off-loading their cargo ops to a subsidiary (as AF/KL is now doing via MP Cargo).
airnerd From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 250 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8525 times:
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14358 posts, RR: 26 Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8485 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 8): I think Lufthansa is stepping away from the freight business in favor of Aero Logic... the transition will probably take a few years..
I think that may be a possibility.
Quoting keesje (Reply 9): I wonder if it was sucha bad idea in hindsight, the rest of the pack seems to survive without the -8i.
So, what has changed for Lufthansa that they would not want the 747s now? Or do they just make a habit of ordering planes they don't really want? It isn't Lufthansa's problem if the 747-8 isn't the right plane for BA, DL, or anyone else.
Quoting airnerd (Reply 12): It does happen to be 17 frames... the same number of MD-11s LH operates
Interesting...
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26726 posts, RR: 83 Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8374 times:
Quoting keesje (Reply 11): 3 BBJ and the 5 8i's for Korean, 2008, 2009 and 2010 saw no orders for the 8F.
Well the A380 has itself added only one new customer (BA) in the same period of time with another sitting on an MoU (VN). Yes, EK took a shedload more of them on behalf of DAE, but since DAE did not have any A380s of their own, that is likely going to be compensation for DAE canceling their 70 A320s and A350s on order so Airbus both wins and loses on that transaction (though admittedly they need the sales on the A380 more than they do on the A320 and A350).
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14): So, what has changed for Lufthansa that they would not want the 747s now?
Nothing, of course.
It's just that LH has always wanted a larger 747 while also always wanting the A380. And that desire runs counter to the belief of some that the A380 is so epic that no airline would ever, ever, ever buy another 747 when they could get the super-awesome mega-amazing Grand Whalejet Extraordinaire.
And then KE had to go do the same darn thing and add the 747-8 alongside the A388 ... *smacks forehead*
413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8365 times:
The nose door can't be that important for them, if it was then they would still have the 742's in their fleet. Right now they have no aircraft with nose door cargo loading. I believe they should purchase 777Fs along with Aerologic's fleet
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8188 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 8): I think Lufthansa is stepping away from the freight business in favor of Aero Logic... the transition will probably take a few years...
Aerologic is nothing but the lean structured operator of a fleet of B777F which they operate on behalt f of parents DLH and LH Cargo. Aerologic does not have a sales structure and not a handling structure either.
The problem LH is facoing since years is the threatening night curfew at FRA which will kill their business model - fast connectivity between all cargo and passenger aircraft at the same location. Until that problem is solved they cannot make a decision on fleet replacement. But even if LH Cargo would give up all own freighters, there still would be H Cargo and not Aerologoc or jade or whoever.
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 16): The nose door can't be that important for them, if it was then they would still have the 742's in their fleet.
742s cannot be operated profitably. After selling their fleet of 742s they have chartered nose loading capacity when needed, be that from Air Atlanta Iceland or from World or Jade. Jade has enough nose loading 744F to cater for the needs of LH Cargo.
I agree that the new orders for Aerologic will give some flexibility to LH Cargo to get rid of the converted MD11s first and it will give them some flexibility as well. We won't see an answer on the quesion however iuntil the pending court cases
are finished.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14358 posts, RR: 26 Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8157 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17): After selling their fleet of 742s they have chartered nose loading capacity when needed, be that from Air Atlanta Iceland or from World or Jade.
I think that all of World's 747s are converted and do not have the nose cargo door. Your point is still valid though.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
I think plastic planes have rather little pay load, so make bad freighters.
It all depends on the court rules about night flights into and out of FRA. If the court as example limits the noise level of aircraft that are allowed during night, it will be the most silent plane they can get - not that I know if the foot print of a 77F is smaller than the one of an A33F, but doubt that. So it might end that half the planes end up as 77F with Aerologic, and LH Cargo operates a dozen A33F itself - and any prediction prior to the court rule in last instance is nothing but digital noise.
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8082 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 15): Well the A380 has itself added only one new customer (BA) in the same period of time with another sitting on an MoU (VN). Yes, EK took a shedload more of them on behalf of DAE, but since DAE did not have any A380s of their own, that is likely going to be compensation for DAE canceling their 70 A320s and A350s on order so Airbus both wins and loses on that transaction (though admittedly they need the sales on the A380 more than they do on the A320 and A350).
You are forgetting the two massive passenger movers ordered by Air Austral which were firmed on 17 november 2009.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8041 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18): think that all of World's 747s are converted and do not have the nose cargo door.
you are correct
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 19): and any prediction prior to the court rule in last instance is nothing but digital noise.
exactly. LH Cargo and the freight forwarders have just a couple of weeks ago formed a new activity under the name "Die Fracht braucht die Nacht" (freight needs the night) which is lobyying against the threatening closure of the airport for 5 or 6 hours.
413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8041 times:
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9616 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7778 times:
As much as I wish that LH Cargo would order the 748F, now that they´ve settled for the smaller MD11 and are happy with that size the 777F appears to be the right replacement. At the moment. I doubt though that LH Cargo itself will order 777s unless MD-11 replacement suddenly becomes urgent because they are convinced the MD-11 is too dangerous. LH in general leans towards the A350 and if the (expensive) range abilities of the 777 are really needed for the whole fleet I cant tell. And dont forget the unresolved night-flight issues at FRA.
I think LHC´s policy is to lease in more and more from partners to cover changing demand. If they need more lift, they lease in Jumbos from World (who will be getting a third 744BDSF soon) or someone else. Lets hope demand rises and they will need the 748F soon!
25 columba: Do you mean the A330 ? The A350F, is no option yet.
26 413X3: But they are only happy when that 777F is flying mainly DHL freight.
27 kanban: most confusing post... am not sure what is being implied here I think both Lufthansa and Aero Logic are happy when they are making money regardless o
28 fxramper: We'll buy them if they want to spend the hundreds of millions to replace them.
29 vald: Or converting the A340-300 ( the non x frames) in the mainline fleet are quite old. Seems like a better option, keep the Md-11 till A340f replacement
30 413X3: I don't see what's confusing. If LH was so happy with the 777F they would buy them for their LH Cargo pilots, right? The type of freight being flied
31 BMI727: What about the 777F is not suitable for normal cargo, other than not having a nose door, which we've established isn't an issue for Lufthansa anyway?
32 413X3: AF doesn't like the 777F because of something with the way certain cargo containers fit. It's only good for package freighters really.
33 AADC10: The "Con" is that it is expensive to buy. The economics of freight is different that of passengers, mostly that they spend a lot less time in the air
34 keesje: Smart formulation. In other words: 53 A380s were ordered in the same period, by 7 operators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_A380_orders_
35 kanban: what was confusing was a one liner with no connection to anything prior... thank you for clarifying.. If LH is easing out of the cargo business, you
36 zeke: I think they is a problem of interlining freight from the 747 to the 777, you would need to repack the main deck pallets to get them to fit when movi
37 Stitch: As zeke notes above, for whatever reasons, AF Cargo did not perform proper due diligence in their purchasing decisions and were surprised that an LD7
38 PanHAM: Again., Aerologic's role is that of an operator only. Nothing else, Aerologoc does not have its own cargo handling nor do they have a sales organisat
39 413X3: So are the legacy carriers of the world slowly all creeping away from a dedicated freight division? That's too bad. In 5 years will there be anyone le
40 PanHAM: Cathay and most likely LH Cargo as well. From the busines smodel, EK EY QR are same as the legacy carriers and they will have freighter operations, Th
41 Burkhard: They only have 7 non X A340, so I don't see these to be converted. A343X maybe, IF they are quiet enough to fulfill night limits I expect to be place
42 328JET: Lufthansa Cargo is responsible for the marketing of the capacity of three (partly)owned operators: 1. Lufthansa Cargo MD11s 2. Jade B744ERFs 3. AeroLo
43 keesje: and the lower decks of >300 passenger aircraft of Lufthansa and partners I guess..
44 328JET: @ Keesje Yes, for sure... i wanted to mention that Lufthansa Cargo as a company is already responsible for the cargo marketing and sales of LH Cargo i
45 PanHAM: Absolutely., from the day the awb prefix changed from 220 to 020. Plus Austrian, Swiss, LH Italia..... On top of that they have some specialised ventu
46 328JET: @ PanHam That is correct for the actual fleet, but not decided for the additional ordered aircrafts.
47 PanHAM: May be, but then they would have to change Aerologic from a pure operator to a competetive company with sales structure and all. I was talking about t
48 B777LRF: Negative on point 3. That job is shared between DHL and LHC. Keep in mind the BOX 777Fs are working 5/7th of the time for DHL and only 2/7th of the t
49 kanban: There are a lot of good points made in rebuttal or clarification to my post about LH getting out of the cargo business.. in hind sight I should have s
51 columba: I have read once that LH How many 777F did Aero Logic plan to have when they first started. Was it only 5 or did they originally intended to have 15 7
52 B777LRF: 8 firm and 3 options. Despite rumours here, those numbers have not changed.
53 PanHAM: The crucial point is that due to the threatening FRA night curfew, their present business model is at stake. If a total night ban really happens, the
54 Burkhard: What does the night operation really need? Does it require departures only, or does it also require landings? I understand that the evening pax aircra
55 PanHAM: The public is not interested in details and 99,9% would not understand it in first place. It's a complicted process involving many parties working in
56 SEPilot: One factor to consider on the MD-11's: a couple more writeoffs and insurance rates will probably escalate dramatically; I know that if I were in the a
57 328JET: AeroLogic does not need its own sales as this is and will be in hands of DHL / Lufthansa Cargo. AeroLogic is nothing more than a low-cost freight oper
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