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If Lufthansa Cargo Should Replace The MD 11  
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10711 times:

Big "IF", but what if Lufthansa Cargo will decide to phase out the MD 11 sooner then originally planned, what would be the replacement:

747-8F Pro: Commonality with 747-8I Fleet, Nose Door Cargo
Con: Too big, that is why LH decided against the the 747-400F but opted for the MD 11 instead

777F Pro: Efficient twin engine aircraft with big payload and great range, already in service with Aero Logic
Con: ??

A330-200F Pro: Efficient twin, commonality with passenger A330/A340 fleet
Con: Maybe too small

The most likely candidate seems to be the 777F, what are your thoughts ?


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10703 times:
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they could go two ways... begin obtaining 777F's or divert the cargo to Aero Logic and phase out cargo operations gradually.

User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10579 times:

The replacement is already ordered.

Take a look at the orders for AeroLogic.


 


User currently offlinepropilot83 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10527 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 2):
The replacement is already ordered.

Take a look at the orders for AeroLogic.

The website is in German, can you translate what kind of aircraft they've ordered and how many?


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10453 times:

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
777F Pro: Efficient twin engine aircraft with big payload and great range, already in service with Aero Logic
Con: ??

Con: Price tag and capacity needs to be filled.

How about A350F?

Pro: Very very efficient twin with good payload/range chart.
Con: Still some years away from EIS.


User currently offlineMarkusMUC From Germany, joined Jun 2010, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10304 times:

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 3):

The website is in German, can you translate what kind of aircraft they've ordered and how many?

There is also an English website, of course.  http://www.aerologic.aero/web/

Current fleet: 6 777F
Orders: additional 9 777F


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10171 times:

Take a look at ch-aviation.ch:

Complete orders from AeroLogic:


C/N MSN last update model registration remarks former airline former reg. delivered to
36202 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
39779 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
39778 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36208 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36207 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36206 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36205 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36204 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36203 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
780 36001 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALA AeroLogic
799 36002 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALB AeroLogic
836 36003 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALC AeroLogic
838 36004 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALD AeroLogic
872 36198 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALE AeroLogic
881 36201 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALF AeroLogic
36200 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALG not yet delivered
36199 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALH not yet delivered



This is really way too much heavy metal for AeroLogic...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10161 times:
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Quoting 328JET (Reply 6):
This is really way too much heavy metal for AeroLogic...

Maybe they plan to expand their operations?


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3626 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10147 times:
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Quoting 328JET (Reply 6):
This is really way too much heavy metal for AeroLogic...
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Maybe they plan to expand their operations?


I think Lufthansa is stepping away from the freight business in favor of Aero Logic... the transition will probably take a few years...


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10121 times:

3 yrs ago I suggested switching the 8i orders for 8F might be a win win for both Boeing and Lufthansa. Boeing could invest their resources in more profitable programs, Lufthansa would not take the risk of becoming sole operator of the 8i.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/3581644

Most were very optimistic on the -8 then. More orders would follow, Boeing said so. I wonder if it was sucha bad idea in hindsight, the rest of the pack seems to survive without the -8i.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10079 times:
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Well more orders for the 747-8I did follow, so maybe LH and Boeing did make the correct decision in staying with the model and off-loading their cargo ops to a subsidiary (as AF/KL is now doing via MP Cargo).

User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10057 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Well more orders for the 747-8I did follow

3 BBJ and the 5 8i's for Korean, 2008, 2009 and 2010 saw no orders for the 8F.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-8#Orders


User currently offlineairnerd From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9974 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):



Take a look at ch-aviation.ch:

Complete orders from AeroLogic:


C/N MSN last update model registration remarks former airline former reg. delivered to
36202 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
39779 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
39778 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36208 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36207 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36206 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36205 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36204 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
36203 B777-2ZN(LRF) D- not yet delivered
780 36001 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALA AeroLogic
799 36002 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALB AeroLogic
836 36003 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALC AeroLogic
838 36004 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALD AeroLogic
872 36198 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALE AeroLogic
881 36201 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALF AeroLogic
36200 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALG not yet delivered
36199 B777-2ZN(LRF) D-AALH not yet delivered



This is really way too much heavy metal for AeroLogic...

It does happen to be 17 frames... the same number of MD-11s LH operates (according to Wikipedia anyway)...


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9940 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
How about A350F?

Pro: Very very efficient twin with good payload/range chart.
Con: Still some years away from EIS.

More like many years from even being offered...


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9934 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 8):
I think Lufthansa is stepping away from the freight business in favor of Aero Logic... the transition will probably take a few years..

I think that may be a possibility.

Quoting keesje (Reply 9):
I wonder if it was sucha bad idea in hindsight, the rest of the pack seems to survive without the -8i.

So, what has changed for Lufthansa that they would not want the 747s now? Or do they just make a habit of ordering planes they don't really want? It isn't Lufthansa's problem if the 747-8 isn't the right plane for BA, DL, or anyone else.

Quoting airnerd (Reply 12):
It does happen to be 17 frames... the same number of MD-11s LH operates

Interesting...  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9823 times:
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Quoting keesje (Reply 11):
3 BBJ and the 5 8i's for Korean, 2008, 2009 and 2010 saw no orders for the 8F.

Well the A380 has itself added only one new customer (BA) in the same period of time with another sitting on an MoU (VN). Yes, EK took a shedload more of them on behalf of DAE, but since DAE did not have any A380s of their own, that is likely going to be compensation for DAE canceling their 70 A320s and A350s on order so Airbus both wins and loses on that transaction (though admittedly they need the sales on the A380 more than they do on the A320 and A350).



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
So, what has changed for Lufthansa that they would not want the 747s now?

Nothing, of course.

It's just that LH has always wanted a larger 747 while also always wanting the A380. And that desire runs counter to the belief of some that the A380 is so epic that no airline would ever, ever, ever buy another 747 when they could get the super-awesome mega-amazing Grand Whalejet Extraordinaire.

And then KE had to go do the same darn thing and add the 747-8 alongside the A388 ... *smacks forehead*


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9814 times:

The nose door can't be that important for them, if it was then they would still have the 742's in their fleet. Right now they have no aircraft with nose door cargo loading. I believe they should purchase 777Fs along with Aerologic's fleet

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9536 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9637 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 8):
I think Lufthansa is stepping away from the freight business in favor of Aero Logic... the transition will probably take a few years...

Aerologic is nothing but the lean structured operator of a fleet of B777F which they operate on behalt f of parents DLH and LH Cargo. Aerologic does not have a sales structure and not a handling structure either.

The problem LH is facoing since years is the threatening night curfew at FRA which will kill their business model - fast connectivity between all cargo and passenger aircraft at the same location. Until that problem is solved they cannot make a decision on fleet replacement. But even if LH Cargo would give up all own freighters, there still would be H Cargo and not Aerologoc or jade or whoever.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 16):
The nose door can't be that important for them, if it was then they would still have the 742's in their fleet.

742s cannot be operated profitably. After selling their fleet of 742s they have chartered nose loading capacity when needed, be that from Air Atlanta Iceland or from World or Jade. Jade has enough nose loading 744F to cater for the needs of LH Cargo.

I agree that the new orders for Aerologic will give some flexibility to LH Cargo to get rid of the converted MD11s first and it will give them some flexibility as well. We won't see an answer on the quesion however iuntil the pending court cases
are finished.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9606 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
After selling their fleet of 742s they have chartered nose loading capacity when needed, be that from Air Atlanta Iceland or from World or Jade.

I think that all of World's 747s are converted and do not have the nose cargo door. Your point is still valid though.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
How about A350F?

I think plastic planes have rather little pay load, so make bad freighters.

It all depends on the court rules about night flights into and out of FRA. If the court as example limits the noise level of aircraft that are allowed during night, it will be the most silent plane they can get - not that I know if the foot print of a 77F is smaller than the one of an A33F, but doubt that. So it might end that half the planes end up as 77F with Aerologic, and LH Cargo operates a dozen A33F itself - and any prediction prior to the court rule in last instance is nothing but digital noise.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9158 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
what are your thoughts ?

I think they will wet lease capacity from another operator.....Aerologic



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1923 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9531 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Well the A380 has itself added only one new customer (BA) in the same period of time with another sitting on an MoU (VN). Yes, EK took a shedload more of them on behalf of DAE, but since DAE did not have any A380s of their own, that is likely going to be compensation for DAE canceling their 70 A320s and A350s on order so Airbus both wins and loses on that transaction (though admittedly they need the sales on the A380 more than they do on the A320 and A350).

You are forgetting the two massive passenger movers ordered by Air Austral which were firmed on 17 november 2009.

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9536 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9490 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
think that all of World's 747s are converted and do not have the nose cargo door.

you are correct

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 19):
and any prediction prior to the court rule in last instance is nothing but digital noise.

exactly. LH Cargo and the freight forwarders have just a couple of weeks ago formed a new activity under the name "Die Fracht braucht die Nacht" (freight needs the night) which is lobyying against the threatening closure of the airport for 5 or 6 hours.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9490 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
World

No nose loaders in their fleet. I'm sure Atlas has been called in a few times though


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9227 times:

As much as I wish that LH Cargo would order the 748F, now that they´ve settled for the smaller MD11 and are happy with that size the 777F appears to be the right replacement. At the moment. I doubt though that LH Cargo itself will order 777s unless MD-11 replacement suddenly becomes urgent because they are convinced the MD-11 is too dangerous. LH in general leans towards the A350 and if the (expensive) range abilities of the 777 are really needed for the whole fleet I cant tell. And dont forget the unresolved night-flight issues at FRA.
I think LHC´s policy is to lease in more and more from partners to cover changing demand. If they need more lift, they lease in Jumbos from World (who will be getting a third 744BDSF soon) or someone else. Lets hope demand rises and they will need the 748F soon!


25 columba : Do you mean the A330 ? The A350F, is no option yet.
26 413X3 : But they are only happy when that 777F is flying mainly DHL freight.
27 kanban : most confusing post... am not sure what is being implied here I think both Lufthansa and Aero Logic are happy when they are making money regardless o
28 Post contains images fxramper : We'll buy them if they want to spend the hundreds of millions to replace them.
29 vald : Or converting the A340-300 ( the non x frames) in the mainline fleet are quite old. Seems like a better option, keep the Md-11 till A340f replacement
30 413X3 : I don't see what's confusing. If LH was so happy with the 777F they would buy them for their LH Cargo pilots, right? The type of freight being flied
31 BMI727 : What about the 777F is not suitable for normal cargo, other than not having a nose door, which we've established isn't an issue for Lufthansa anyway?
32 413X3 : AF doesn't like the 777F because of something with the way certain cargo containers fit. It's only good for package freighters really.
33 AADC10 : The "Con" is that it is expensive to buy. The economics of freight is different that of passengers, mostly that they spend a lot less time in the air
34 Post contains links keesje : Smart formulation. In other words: 53 A380s were ordered in the same period, by 7 operators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_A380_orders_
35 kanban : what was confusing was a one liner with no connection to anything prior... thank you for clarifying.. If LH is easing out of the cargo business, you
36 zeke : I think they is a problem of interlining freight from the 747 to the 777, you would need to repack the main deck pallets to get them to fit when movi
37 Stitch : As zeke notes above, for whatever reasons, AF Cargo did not perform proper due diligence in their purchasing decisions and were surprised that an LD7
38 PanHAM : Again., Aerologic's role is that of an operator only. Nothing else, Aerologoc does not have its own cargo handling nor do they have a sales organisat
39 413X3 : So are the legacy carriers of the world slowly all creeping away from a dedicated freight division? That's too bad. In 5 years will there be anyone le
40 PanHAM : Cathay and most likely LH Cargo as well. From the busines smodel, EK EY QR are same as the legacy carriers and they will have freighter operations, Th
41 Burkhard : They only have 7 non X A340, so I don't see these to be converted. A343X maybe, IF they are quiet enough to fulfill night limits I expect to be place
42 328JET : Lufthansa Cargo is responsible for the marketing of the capacity of three (partly)owned operators: 1. Lufthansa Cargo MD11s 2. Jade B744ERFs 3. AeroLo
43 keesje : and the lower decks of >300 passenger aircraft of Lufthansa and partners I guess..
44 328JET : @ Keesje Yes, for sure... i wanted to mention that Lufthansa Cargo as a company is already responsible for the cargo marketing and sales of LH Cargo i
45 PanHAM : Absolutely., from the day the awb prefix changed from 220 to 020. Plus Austrian, Swiss, LH Italia..... On top of that they have some specialised ventu
46 Post contains images 328JET : @ PanHam That is correct for the actual fleet, but not decided for the additional ordered aircrafts.
47 PanHAM : May be, but then they would have to change Aerologic from a pure operator to a competetive company with sales structure and all. I was talking about t
48 B777LRF : Negative on point 3. That job is shared between DHL and LHC. Keep in mind the BOX 777Fs are working 5/7th of the time for DHL and only 2/7th of the t
49 kanban : There are a lot of good points made in rebuttal or clarification to my post about LH getting out of the cargo business.. in hind sight I should have s
50 Post contains images propilot83 : Alright baby, hail to the 777
51 columba : I have read once that LH How many 777F did Aero Logic plan to have when they first started. Was it only 5 or did they originally intended to have 15 7
52 B777LRF : 8 firm and 3 options. Despite rumours here, those numbers have not changed.
53 PanHAM : The crucial point is that due to the threatening FRA night curfew, their present business model is at stake. If a total night ban really happens, the
54 Burkhard : What does the night operation really need? Does it require departures only, or does it also require landings? I understand that the evening pax aircra
55 PanHAM : The public is not interested in details and 99,9% would not understand it in first place. It's a complicted process involving many parties working in
56 SEPilot : One factor to consider on the MD-11's: a couple more writeoffs and insurance rates will probably escalate dramatically; I know that if I were in the a
57 328JET : AeroLogic does not need its own sales as this is and will be in hands of DHL / Lufthansa Cargo. AeroLogic is nothing more than a low-cost freight oper
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