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Kicked Off DL After Smelling Alcohol On Pilot  
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2728 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27330 times:

This is hard to believe. A lady spoke with the captain in the jetway and she and others thought the pilot smelled of alcohol. She told a Fight Attendant and the saga started, which ended up with DL (pilots) booting her off the flight.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...ng-Pilot-Of-Drinking-99890364.html

218 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 27279 times:

Huge accusation on her part. Remember there's always
THREE sides to a story.


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 27211 times:

I'm sure we don't know the other sides of this story, for all we know she may not have acted as calmly as she thinks she did. Either way the pilot gets to decide who goes and who stays, she may not like it but what did she expect after accusing the pilot of drinking, it's a very serious accusation that could create huge problems for the pilot.

User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4298 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 27170 times:

Interesting story - I suspect there is another side to this though.
On the one hand, you definitely don't want a situation where a whistle-blower is afraid to speak up and say something. But you also cannot have random people making a fuss and causing a disruption every time they feel like it.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4718 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 27088 times:

Well normally I dont think i would side with a passenger, if others smelled it too (as indicated in the article) then it is an issue. The problem is there is no good protocol for handlign this type of situation. If I truly believed that the captain of my flight had been drinking (in excess), I'd call the police and not tell the airline. I dont believe that we need to police pilots before they get on board the aircraft, but if a few bad apples make the press then who knows what may happen as a result.

Really the crew is the best line of defense but who would rat a coworker out with something serious like that. A good temporary measure would be an anonymous employee tipline and they can monitor the situation from there.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26968 times:

She completely did the right thing by telling someone, I would have got off the aircraft and told someone on the ground but she did the right thing either way. If you think a pilot who is about to fly a plane has been drinking you report it.
I'm sure after reported to the FO the FO told the CAPT what was going on and asked that he take a breathalyzer before continuing on the flight just to cover his own ass. CAPT calls and tells SOC what is going on they send a breathalyzer with a witness and CAPT is cleared.

Now Delta also did the right thing by asking the lady to take another flight. She has voiced her concern, they took it seriously and verified the CAPT was not drinking but for the safety of the flight she has to be removed. She didn't do anything wrong but to let her go onto LAX could cause problems, especially if she starts talking to other passengers about the incident.

There was a problem, Delta resolved it than contained it so that it didn't get any larger, GREAT JOB DELTA!!!!!

This lady was given a hotel, food, and a flight the next morning. The did a GREAT job handling this situation.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26868 times:
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Quoting cokepopper (Reply 1):
Huge accusation on her part. Remember there's always
THREE sides to a story.

Don't forget the epilogue, where she decides to sue Delta.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Well normally I dont think i would side with a passenger, if others smelled it too (as indicated in the article) then it is an issue. The problem is there is no good protocol for handlign this type of situation

There isn't, not without consequences anyway. In all likelihood, I think the flight would've gone on with no issues, but there is an element of vindictiveness between passengers and employees. Several times, i've flown with pilots who take a sledgehammer approach towards conflict resolution. It's part of the way we as airline employees handle things. No longer are we going to accept the "grey area" explanation anymore. From the pilots point of view, she had lost confidence in his judgement, his integrity and his ability. And he didn't want her to risk her life, so he did what he thought was right. She decided to take the bull by the horns and she got the entire bull. If you're going to make an accusation, you have to be completely sure. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it. She's retained an attorney, which means she plans to sue. Good luck.



Made from jets!
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26688 times:

If the article is correct, Delta handled the situation correctly.

If a pilot is accused of drinking, he (she assumed throughout) takes the test. He walks right out of the cockpit and takes the test to immediately clear his name.

If the pilot is cleared, he can take the flight or walk away. If the pilot (in this case Capt) returns to the cockpit he is in charge of the flight.

As the Captain, he can kick anyone off the flight that he pleases if he feels it is a distraction to his job or a safety issue. This is his call.

That is why he is called the Captain.

In this day and age of empowerment and political correctness we often forget who's in charge or feel we have the right to question authority to no avail. From parking brake release to parking brake set, the guy in the left seat is in charge . . . plain and simple.

Good Job Delta.


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3708 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26634 times:
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Sounds like a non issue to me. Once the door is closed that is the Captains plane and he has every right to boot anyone off the plane that he wants to. I think Delta handled the situation very well, and the lady even got another night to visit her son.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offline777236er From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26555 times:

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
Once the door is closed that is the Captains plane and he has every right to boot anyone off the plane that he wants to.

Of course he or she can, and they will be sacked for making the wrong decision...which I suspect will happen in this case.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4718 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26557 times:

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
Once the door is closed that is the Captains plane and he has every right to boot anyone off the plane that he wants to. I think Delta handled the situation very well,

But what if he actually was drinking?



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3695 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26465 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
If I truly believed that the captain of my flight had been drinking (in excess),

How about drinking a little within 8 hours of departure...NOT!

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
but who would rat a coworker out with something serious like that.

Apparently concerned crew members on that UA flight leaving LHR who asked for Capt. Erwin WSashington to be removed.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 208 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26386 times:

Something is odd to this whole story.
If the Cpt. is cleared- why should he have the Passenger removed who spoke up? It should be her good right to issue her concerns- especially if several pax smelled it as well.
I don´t think it a wise move to then remove her from the flight- will she ever speak up again in a safety related case?

If there is nothing to hide then just go on with it.

I´m not happy with the part that officials board the plane a second time and take her off. There must be something missing there.

Anyway- we all know that Pilots don´t drink before flights, don´t we?


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26328 times:
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I agree that the Captain has the discretion to throw off the plane anybody whose presence onboard he deems unnecesary. Still, it was not very political or smart on his part.

User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4298 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26223 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 13):
I agree that the Captain has the discretion to throw off the plane anybody whose presence onboard he deems unnecesary. Still, it was not very political or smart on his part.

It seems to have worked out pretty well for him. If he had been drinking before that flight, there is no proof now and its a he said she said issue. If he wasn't drinking before the flight and had the passenger removed anyway, there was no skin off of his back for throwing around his authority.

Quoting 777236er (Reply 9):
Of course he or she can, and they will be sacked for making the wrong decision...which I suspect will happen in this case.

I don't necessarily think that will happen... there is at least one more side to this story as several of us have suggested. He could say that she was the one drinking and causing a scene. Who knows what really happened.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6544 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26146 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 10):
But what if he actually was drinking?

The the FO and the FAs would have taken action.

There are no airline crew members who want to fly with a drunken captain who begins kicking off passengers for telling the truth.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3708 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 26020 times:
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Quoting 777236er (Reply 9):
Of course he or she can, and they will be sacked for making the wrong decision...which I suspect will happen in this case.




No he won't. All he has to do is say that he did it in the name of safety and he will be completely cleared. ALPA won't let someone get fired over something like this. Hell, the guys who landed on a taxiway only had to go through re-training. I think you underestimate the power of the union over here my friend.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 10):
But what if he actually was drinking?



The we would be reading an article about a "Hero Passenger Save's 250 Live's By Detecting Drunk Pilot". The article said the pilot was tested and cleared to return to work. Had he been drunk the flight would have been delayed while they pulled a ready reserve captain up from downstairs



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25974 times:

Quoting 777236er (Reply 9):
Of course he or she can, and they will be sacked for making the wrong decision...which I suspect will happen in this case.

Why on earth would DL fire this guy? There is no reason at all to punish the CAPT, he was proven innocent.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineN92R03 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25955 times:

Props to DL for the way it was handled. Glad the Captain was cleared.

If I had been the whistle-blower, I'd have preferred taking a different flight although I'm sure the crew of that flight would know what I had done...Kind of a lose-lose situation but at least we are not reading about another pilot trying to fly while being hammered.

There is a reason many folks tip the vodka back in secrecy, as there is no smell to vodka and many other hard liquors. I question the whole "we could smell vodka" story. Perhaps the other pax thought they smelled some type of alcohol but "vodka" was convenient.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25944 times:
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I think Delta handled the situation correctly, I think if I were the passenger however, i'd have handled it differently.

Rather than waiting to get on the plane and making some kind of big scene by reporting it to a crew member possibly within earshot of other passengers, i'd have walked back up the jetway and spoken with the gate agent. I would have asked to be removed from the flight and i'd have explained my concern that i thought one of the pilots smelled like he had alcohol on his breath. That way I'm off the flight anyway and no one's sensitivities have been hurt by what turns out to be a false accusation. In the end, there's no need to make a big deal out of it, i'd much rather be discrete and if possible stay anonymous than make a big stink. the way i figure it, I always have a choice as to whether or not to get on an airplane, and if getting on that plane makes me feel uncomfortable for whatever reason, I'll just catch another flight.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25904 times:

A lawsuit will ensue and she will lose...
Making allegations that the pilot has been drinking is serious....that pilot will lose his career if he has been drinking...
This one was not...good move Delta...



Our Returning Champion
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25815 times:
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Quoting N92R03 (Reply 18):
There is a reason many folks tip the vodka back in secrecy, as there is no smell to vodka and many other hard liquors. I question the whole "we could smell vodka" story. Perhaps the other pax thought they smelled some type of alcohol but "vodka" was convenient.

I can tell you from experience that that is a myth. Vodka will smell on you as any other liquor will, specially once your body starts to excrete through respiration. Maybe the SMELL, the particular scent of Vodka is less strong than Bourbon, for example, but the alcohol smells just the same and will be detected by anyone with a mediocre nose whos passes by.


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1300 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25764 times:

Kudos to Delta. If the article is correct they did everything right from start to finish. The captain was corrrect in his actions. He has no way of knowing how this accuser is going to act once airborne. She might be perfectly content and accepting of his verified innocense and the situation ends there. On the other hand she could also be non accepting and become disruptive. As captain I would have made the same decision.
There are an enormous amount of gold digging sensasionalists in this country that will take and run with every opportunity for their fifteen minutes of fame or the possibitly of legal paydirt. Im not accusing this woman of that (yet) but I have to say hmmm. Her concerns were addressed, she was compensated for her inconvenience, everyone is safe. End of story.


User currently offlineairlinereporter From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25093 times:

What a very difficult situation that everyone was in. If it was just her who smelled the possible alcohol, it would be a very different situation. If multiple people smelled something, it should have been checked on like it was. If the pilot kicked off the passenger because he honestly felt it was for the best due to safety, then no problem. If he booted her for retaliation against her, that is not alright.

David


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7565 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 24962 times:

Sorry but anytime that the pilot is accused or even someone jokingly mentions that they pilot was drinking, smells like booze, or was seen near a bar they have to take a mandatory breathalizer etc. I'm calling BS on this woman, some drunk guy said he thought he saw my dad at the airport bar shortly before the flight, he had to delay the flight 3 hours for a breathalizer and other tests and talk to managers and of course the guy got booted off the flight.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 JBAirwaysFan : If this is the case and the pilot was drinking, I'm sure she didn't mind being kicked off the flight.
26 airport : I must be taking crazy pills this morning. Why should the woman be punished for raising what could be a potentially VERY serious issue? She paid good
27 DiamondFlyer : I still think they had very fortunate timing. Had the NW A320 situation not blown up at nearly the same time, the taxiway landing would have made the
28 C767P : You would think so, wouldn’t you? Erwin Washington, a UA pilot who was arrested in London attempting to fly a 767 to ORD drunk did not lose his job
29 thegreatRDU : Crazy right? He's a union member...and you know how it is with them...
30 mho : Some cheap after-shave and colognes can make you smell like a veritable boozehound.
31 flybyguy : This is such a bloody double standard. Any passenger can accuse anyone else of being a terrorist and they have absolutely no legal recourse to contest
32 okie73 : A ready reserve captain sitting down stairs? Thats funny.
33 ROSWELL41 : This woman won't get any settlement from Delta nor should she. We've only heard her side of the story from the article and I suspect there is more to
34 Braniff727Ultra : I believe the pilot AND Delta both acted correctly. From the "looks" of things by having to have her leave the plane twice it sure seems that during t
35 Airport : That is a terrible analogy. There are extreme risks of human life that could come as a result of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre -- telling an F/
36 Max Q : Good for the Captain and good for Delta. I would have kicked her off as well. You just don't get to make that kind of accusation without consequences.
37 ikramerica : The captain needs to buy better cologne, and this kind of thing won't happen again.
38 rikkus67 : 100% agree NorthstarBoy. Sad thing is...how many would actually do that in liability hungry USA?
39 ROSWELL41 : Perhaps if you were on the receiving end of such an accusation you would view things differently. Should the accusation be baseless as it was in this
40 Numero4 : If I believe that this story unfolded just like the article depicts it, then kudos to Delta for handling it the way they did. I can appreciate their p
41 wjcandee : Problem is that a flight the next day and a free hotel (woo-hoo!) is hardly a comparable experience. Most posters seem to be acting as if she's Suzy H
42 KDEN : That's ridiculous! This seems like nothing more than revenge. The captain was cleared, and the passenger was told this. Everything is now under contr
43 flybyguy : If her accusation was deemed malicious don't you think DL would have rode her out on a rail instead of paying for food, hotel and a flight the next d
44 web500sjc : so what happens if the said whistle blower was a buisness person closing a multi-billion dollar deal in person- and because that person was not there
45 surfdog75 : Sorry, what she had wasn't alertness. It was just a plain incorrect accusation. Groupthink between her and the other three. If I'm going to accuse an
46 web500sjc : if it was career ending, than god for her, because she would have saved 200 people from a drunken ride through the sky! - what if it wasnt a drunk pi
47 ROSWELL41 : Like most things, the devil is in the details. I suspect a lot of these decisions were made due to how she made these accusations, not necessarily the
48 Braniff727Ultra : Quoting web500sjc: so what happens if the said whistle blower was a buisness person closing a multi-billion dollar deal in person- and because that pe
49 web500sjc : ill stick with my current opinion (you shouldnt punish a whistle blower/ someone who is trying to do the right thing) untill the rest of the details
50 Braniff727Ultra : web500sjc; I'll stand by my previous comment about how i feel there is more too "her" side of this than was reported. I feel that she might have had a
51 bjorn14 : and stopping getting the masseuse to use alcohol in those rubdowns. and usually in those deals there are many people involved not just one.
52 thrufru : Among the many other comments on this board, including the captain's ultimate authority, this hits the nail on the head. Her actions questioned not j
53 Post contains images deltaguy767 : Everyone who is lambasting DL for their handling of the situation and treating the woman's ejection as a "punishment" is completely off base. First of
54 Post contains images fxramper : This is the easiest piece of information that can be offered given what we factually know about this story. As stated, there are 3 sides to every sto
55 dldtw1962 : I think DL did the right thing also. And same goes for this lady. However, one thing I find a little troubling is. Since when can you smell Vodka? I t
56 iairallie : Someone who values their own personal safety and that of their passengers. However there are ways of handling it without ratting someone out. Like ma
57 Giancavia : If he was drunk or had high levels of alcohol flowing around in him would the rest of the crew take his side? Doubt it .. im pretty sure they value th
58 aaexecplat : How was she "accusing" anything? She apparently mentioned to the flight attendant that she "thought she and other passengers had smelled alcohol on t
59 FlyWhisperjets : Vodka does smell on a persons breath after drinking it....The lady probably did smell alcohol in the jet way considering that the flight was late eve
60 aaexecplat : I find it humorous to read suggestions that the pilot should counter-sue for slander. Do you have any idea how hard it is to win such a suit in the US
61 bjorn14 : Apparently the woman wasn't too concerned because she got on the plane and went back to her seat...TWICE!
62 copter808 : No, I would relate it more to discreetly telling a theater employee you "thought" you smelled smoke. Your mentioning your concern discreetly to the s
63 alwaysontherun : Isn´t booting a person off with the doors closed extremely cruel? Especially in mid air! ###"I´m always on the Run"###
64 MLD9S : I am a flight attendant. I have been in this situation. NOT a situation where our captain had been drinking but a situation where a passenger thought
65 justlump : So, because Ms. Angel "thought" she smelled alcohol, she was compelled to delay a flight for at least an hour and endanger the career of an innocent C
66 AKviator : Ugh, that's an incredibly tasteless joke. That ranks up there with joking there's a bomb on board.
67 futureualpilot : Most of us know that it isn't worth placing our careers at risk, and won't even think about showing up with alcohol in our system. I won't even use m
68 1stfl94 : I do think this situations sucks for both sides as the pilot had to be tested and the flight delayed while the passenger was inconvenienced. But Delta
69 indolikaa : They don't need to come up with a story. They are an airline; therefore, they have perpetual liability no matter how they handle an incident. Look no
70 Flaps : Or perhaps they feel that since they correctly handled the situation, as far as their part goes it is case closed, over and done with. There is no ne
71 AAExecPlat : I don't even know where to start... 1) You don't seem to understand that alcoholism is a disease. If you are an alcoholic, you can't make a choice wh
72 Kaiarahi : Can you enlighten us on how to kick someone off when the door is closed? BTW, the door was open.
73 XFSUgimpLB41X : The pilots had started out in PIT earlier in the day. The rotation shows that it was over a 4 hour hub turn indicating that they delayed the flight fo
74 Flaps : I understand and respect the intent behind this post but that approach opens an awful can of worms. Maybe all passengers should blow a breathalyzer b
75 XFSUgimpLB41X : ...by pulling back into the gate... Now you are enlightened!
76 Kaiarahi : And opening the door, I suppose ....
77 yfbflyer : So retaliation by a person in a position of power is acceptable now?
78 XFSUgimpLB41X : It's not retaliation. She continued to make accusations and cause a scene after the CA had already gotten tested and returned to the plane.
79 futureualpilot : A handful of people in my family have been/are alcoholics. How dare you say I don't understand it is a disease when I've watched what it does to peop
80 JoeCanuck : I'm curious...what happens if was another safety concern instead of a pilot drinking. If someone sees fluid dripping from an engine and it turns out t
81 AR385 : The fact that you wrote the above, is evidence that you have no idea about the facts of alcoholism or any other type of addiction. No matter how many
82 AKviator : From the looks of the article and video, Angel and her attorney were the only ones interviewed. In fact it appears there was no other source of infor
83 XFSUgimpLB41X : What is written is not the whole story nor what actually happened.. It's a money grab by the woman and her lawyer.
84 Post contains images flybyguy : Of course this is a retaliatory move by the Captain. He blew clear but he wasn't satisfied... he wanted to make sure he punished the woman for what i
85 JoeCanuck : Since what is written is not the whole story, then there is not enough evidence to draw any solid conclusion, much less whether or not her actions ar
86 AAExecPlat : I can tell that having some sort of reasoned argument with you is going to be practically useless as you seem unwilling to consider the scientific ev
87 ThirtyEcho : The potential for this lady to upset other passengers during the flight is reason enough to boot her off. Suppose she sits down in her seat and starts
88 XFSUgimpLB41X : Bingo... and that's exactly what happened. She continued on and on AFTER the CA had already been tested.
89 AAExecPlat : And you know this how? And I really mean "know"...not infer or guess.
90 thegreatRDU : Let me guess, she sues because her 'rights' were violated and the company 'embarrassed' her causing 'distress' and other 'damages' Another day in the
91 KDEN : No kidding! If I have a legitimate concern, I NEED a way to bring it up. Frankly, this woman did so in the best way possible. This thread seems to im
92 futureualpilot : It sure is nice that you know the reasons behind why the Captain decided to do what he did. Issue cleared up, everyone go home now. Accusation: 1. a
93 futureualpilot : Sad, I know. Flying is not a right. People too easily forget this. That being said, voicing a legitimate concern over the state of one of the crew is
94 EDICHC : Wow this is heavy stuff by Delta. IMHO any passenger (or indeed anyone) should have the right to express a concern like this. I know there are profess
95 JoeCanuck : That is not in the article. It makes no mention of her continuing on and on AFTER the CA had been tested. In fact, the article mentions that she acce
96 Max Q : MLD9s A very insightful contribution I think. If this Pilot HAD been drinking then, of course the 'observant' passenger would have done the right thin
97 Post contains images fxramper : If anyone is still reading this thread - I linked the article to the other 90 or so pilots I keep in my email address book and everyone that replied s
98 david21487 : Thank you. Should she have stayed on the flight, she could have (not necessarily intentionally) created a problem after departure. All you need is fo
99 Woof : After reading pretty much all of the replies I have just one question. If a member of the flight crew walks past me as a pax about to board a flight a
100 Post contains images Kaiarahi : If many on this thread are taken at their word, a pilot who doesn't like redheads could kick a redhead off a flight on the basis that redheads are po
101 AAExecPlat : I have given up on helping to open your mind...but for the benefit of those who might have an open mind and read this thread, allow me to make this a
102 cv640 : Maybe he knows more then what was printed from his employer? I had heard something about this before it made its way to tv and it sounds like there w
103 ROSWELL41 : So what does 'smelling alcohol on one's breath' implie? The person has been drinking alcohol and may be drunk. That is an accusation that must be tak
104 thegreatRDU : That's true imagine her on the flight and if other passengers were to ask what happened...and she says she smelled alcohol on the Captain...that coul
105 Post contains images fxramper : Listerine or alcohol, or are they the same thing. Come on... The Captain will answer for his action taken, but as stated previously many times he can
106 indolikaa : Because suing is always the answer to the problem. Awesome! Your post is why my sympathy tends to gravitate towards the airlines and their employees
107 ROSWELL41 : You are absolutely correct. The captain's authority is very broad and any review of his actions gives wide and liberal deference to his decisions. An
108 Kaiarahi : It's a simple statement of a fact that she and other pax believed to be true. Can you cite which rule she broke?
109 XFSUgimpLB41X : My goodness you people are dense. Can't you get the hint that some people might be a bit more privy to what happened than what is in print?
110 N801NW : This was posted by a user on another forum.
111 web500sjc : whatever happened the story is about to go up on CNN... wonder what they will say.
112 LAXtoATL : Without knowing the entire story in this situation, I will say this... If someone is concerned enough that a pilot has been drinking, not only should
113 Max Q : You don't get to make jokes about bombs going through security and you don't get to make jokes about Pilots drinking on your flight without ramificati
114 JoeCanuck : The article clearly states that when told the Captain was not drunk, she accepted the explanation and took her seat. She was later removed from the p
115 Post contains links iairallie : http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/women-f...-drinking/story?id=11326467&page=2 "Delta says that Angel wasn't being so quiet. "Airport customer service,
116 JoeCanuck : I wonder what the other passengers will say.
117 Max Q : As stated above, she wasn't quiet at all, she was, without doubt a disruptive passenger and disruptive passengers get left behind ,what ever the reas
118 justlump : To those who are defending "poor" Miss Angel, please let me shed some light on the issue of passenger removal. Removing a passenger from a commercial
119 Post contains images HAWK21M : There is more to the Story....The Airlines Side of it
120 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Really? All Delta said was: Because we all know that airlines exist to satisfy the needs of PICs, not pax; they also make their money by satisfying P
121 Woof : How is this slander? If she had say "hey buddy I think the Captain has had a drink" then you might have a point, but saying that she thought she coul
122 indolikaa : OK... 1) Do we have any pilots here with an active ATPL, and if so; 2) Would any of you do that?
123 cv640 : His source is that he is employed by Delta and had heard of this before it came out in the news. Again, there is more then what was initially reporte
124 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : Thanks cv640. I knew you would be able to connect the dots, haha. Yes, I'm privy to what happened. Kicking a passenger off an airplane is a BIG deal.
125 JoeCanuck : Actually, there is quite a bit of doubt. What we have is her saying she was quiet and Delta saying she wasn't. That leaves plenty of room for doubt.
126 EDICHC : But there is doubt that she was disruptive. If she was disruptive DL would have been under no obligation to issue hotel/meal vouchers or to rebook he
127 silentbob : Because it's cheaper than a lawsuit. If they do go to trial, they can then show that they went above and beyond their requirements and she is just be
128 JoeCanuck : Whichever side gets the most passengers to agree with them, wins.
129 XFSUgimpLB41X : Oh my goodness. It's no wonder most pro pilots have left this site that used to frequent it years ago. I have booted disruptive/drunk pax off before
130 Post contains images Maverick623 : You guys are soooo sure that's what happened, care to state your source? BTW, take note of this guy: I'd be willing to bet he read the actual report
131 Dl767captain : Yup, that's pretty much how life goes, you make the Police officer mad and they won't treat you so well, you make the teacher angry and they grade yo
132 JoeCanuck : My source has been the article...and I referred to it at every step. Hold on sparky...my expertise is in a lot of fields and at no point did I specif
133 EDICHC : You have a source for this? I have based all my debating points upon the article which clearly states that the passenger concerned accepted the expla
134 Kaiarahi : If you'd said so in the first place, it would have saved about 50 posts.
135 Post contains images AirframeAS : I wanted to chime in here... some people here think that this woman pax falsely accused the pilot of doing something. I have to say I disagree. There
136 Max Q : If you want to interpret the Captain's and Managements actions as 'making an example out of her' that is up to you. The reality is she was disruptive
137 Post contains links and images AirframeAS : How so? You dodged my question. Maybe we should rehash this thread again...???? Ultimate Authority Always With Captain? (by faro Apr 1 2010 in Tech O
138 Post contains images EDICHC : That is my interpretation also. The actions of the Captain in this instance sets a dangerous precedent. If a pax suspects a crew member of being unde
139 Post contains images freakydeaky : Has anyone entertained the idea that said passenger smelled alcohol - but it was on HER breath?
140 AKviator : How do you know? Do you have any sources other than the one dimensional article where the only information provided was from her?
141 EDICHC : Extremely unlikely, persons that have been consuming alcohol do not as a rule smell it on their own breath. This is mainly due to the fact that olfac
142 AirframeAS : You know, the FAA is not the only thing that is used for oversight............ Do I need one?? Agreed. As stated in the thread that I provided, that
143 AKviator : Common sense and thinking critically tells me its one dimensional. As I said earlier: The defendant has spoken, but I think the prosecution deserves
144 EDICHC : Common sense suggests that the account carries a ring of truth about it. Otherwise why would DL issue hotel and meal vouchers as well as rebooking he
145 Max Q : Wrong. A Jet Transport is not a Democracy. The final responsibilty for the safety of the Aircraft and it's passengers lie with one person who also ho
146 EDICHC : As you say the FINAL responsibility lies with the Captain. But everyone has a part to play in flight safety. That was my point. If say a flight atten
147 EDICHC : Can I ask all the professional pilots on that have expressed views on this incident to read this, which I posted earlier... and state what would you d
148 AKviator : Any number of reasons. Maybe it's SOP, maybe to prevent it from being a total PR nightmare, maybe she and her family were frequent Delta flyers, or m
149 EDICHC : Extremely unlikely, how long would any carrier be in business if it was SOP to give food and hotel vouchers to off-loaded, disruptive passengers. I t
150 Kaiarahi : And we all know that having a God complex sitting in the left seat is the best way to ensure safety - right? Think Tenerife, and ... and ... and ....
151 cv640 : Again, the article doesn't have all the information. The only statements were from the lady. There was no additional info from other passengers, crew,
152 Post contains images AirframeAS : No, I don't. I think you need to review that thread I posted in reply 137 for a refresher because you know what you just said is not entirely true...
153 EDICHC : Where is this additional information? I didn't see this in the article quoted in the original post and is at odds with the account given in that arti
154 Post contains links LAXtoATL : See reply 115... Also, http://www.ajc.com/business/woman-kicked-off-delta-585104.html Regardless of whether or not the passenger was disruptive, I fa
155 EDICHC : You don't consider being removed from a flight and delayed overnight as a punishment? I certainly would. If you read the original article she volunte
156 AirframeAS : I don't consider questioning a pilot's competence, especially when it comes to the bottle to throttle situation, and then being removed from a flight
157 thegreatRDU : BTW what happened to the broad who fell asleep on a UA aircraft and woke up in the hangar and sued for $75,000 citing "emotional distress"?
158 AKviator : Eh, I hate jumping to conclusions. If I had to draw a conclusion though, I would say Angel is full of it. I just can't see a Delta Air Lines captain,
159 Kaiarahi : I wouldn't have thought so, either. But judging from the reaction of at least one captain on this thread, I'm beginning to think otherwise. As Airfra
160 MD88Captain : Most of the posters yelling ""Unfair" & "Retribution" are missing a large part of the Captain's responsibility in this flight. The accuser has alr
161 Woof : I appreciate the reply from the real world, but can I ask you to put yourself in her position, assuming she was both sane and really did think she sm
162 XFSUgimpLB41X : She should have done exactly what she started out to do if she really suspected him of drinking. The process gets moving very quickly and is taken ve
163 AirNZ : It will also create huge problems for everyone on board if such an 'accusation' (your words) turns out to be correct, or should such concerns not app
164 EDICHC : There is no conclusive evidence to that effect. Two differing accounts, one from the passenger and a statement from the airline. While there are thos
165 Kaiarahi : Do you have any reason to suggest any of the above, any more than I might suggest captains have god-complexes? Maybe she was just a middle-aged women
166 XFSUgimpLB41X : logic dictates otherwise if you know how these things go. As far as a vindictive captain in the second quote... I believe if you think that is how th
167 stratosphere : It might be retaliation but if I was the captain I would have done the same thing. I would have met the woman in the jetway AFTER I was cleared and e
168 wjcandee : I made some comments earlier in the thread to the effect that an overnight delay can really cause a problem for someone and maybe everyone concerned w
169 toproy : Wise call by the CAP. It could have turned into an ugly mess once up there, imagine if the PAX choose to not believe the results that cleared him and
170 edichc : Actually, before entering nursing college at uni, I worked for a small carrier at in the UK and I have seen how a MINORITY of captains can act. So in
171 silentbob : You've slandered just about everyone other than the woman that is looking to collect on a payday for getting kicked off the plane and NOW you say the
172 JoeCanuck : Here's part of the problem. A lady goes to the airline with a potential safety concern and in the end, it's not considered as such but as a disruptio
173 edichc : Are we so certain of this? This is what is alleged in a statement from Delta, but is at varience with the passenger's account. Why is it the case tha
174 Post contains images AKviator : Well the article says the first meeting was when the manager told her the captain had already been cleared. I'm sure "continued to be concerned" mean
175 JoeCanuck : Have any of these shit scared people commented yet?
176 Kaiarahi : Do you have any basis for this, or is it pure speculation? I find it quite telling that no other pax have come forward to suggest Mrs Angel was, in t
177 EDICHC : I beg your pardon? Who have I personally slandered? I have only stated my opinion on the likelihood of certain events, or past precedent in certain a
178 Woof : I think you need to read up on the difference between slander and libel. Note that this statement is not libelous, but if I had worded it as "you are
179 AKviator : Pure speculation. I find it quite telling Mrs. Angel didn't include them in her interview.
180 JoeCanuck : Actually, Angel does mention the other passengers with whom she spoke prior to approaching the airline with her concern. Delta doesn't mention speaki
181 AKviator : Right, I mean that i'm surprised she didn't have the passengers make an appearance with her at her interview.
182 EDICHC : So you were present on board that aircraft on that occasion? If the answer is yes then fair enough. If the answer is no, then you are not privy to wh
183 XFSUgimpLB41X : I will not comment one way or the other on my sources... they are valid though. The problem I have is that "educated" aviation enthusiasts are assumi
184 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : ATLANTA - After a Southern California woman said she was kicked off of a Delta Air Lines flight in Atlanta for reporting that she and others smelled a
185 RussianJet : As is often the way with these things, the fact is that none of us know who said or did exactly what to whom, in what tone of voice, at what volume, e
186 EDICHC : I agree in principle taking your word regarding your sources, even though I don't know what your sources are, but they are no more or less valid that
187 XFSUgimpLB41X : I'm more trying to educated the people on here as to how the process goes. What actually happened (yes, I do know what actually happened) was absolute
188 EDICHC : Sorry but the sceptic in me concludes (also based on your profile) a few possibilities, that you are a Delta employee who may have seen a press relea
189 AKviator : Nothing at this point can be proven. That she didn't drop the issue, to me, is a much more plausible story than the entire flight crew (including a m
190 EDICHC : That is my entire point. But the POSSIBILITY of collusion between Capt and airline management is not a implausible as you may think. POSSIBLE scenari
191 Kaiarahi : There's nothing in anything you've referred to (including Delta statements) to support this. In fact, your previous post sets out quite neatly the tw
192 AKviator : Sure this is possible. But not as likely, in my opinion, as her carrying on about it and now trying to make a quick buck. The captain may be the fina
193 JoeCanuck : Delta hasn't released what they are claiming she actually said and nothing they have released necessarily contradicts her position. So far, there is
194 hmflyer : The fact of the matter is the woman can sue whomever she wants, the Captain won't be held liable. He has the power to remove whomever he likes in the
195 ediCHC : Or more like look like a veiled admission of liability. Other pax were already had this suspicion anyway, and in fact mentioned it to her. This has h
196 AKviator : How many already knew, like three? Maybe Delta going above and beyond, maybe your conspiracy theory is right. Who knows. We could speculate for the r
197 hmflyer : All the Captain has to say is that he did it in the interest of safety, he felt the woman could cause other passengers to lose confidence/ be worried
198 Kaiarahi : Ahhh - the god complex in the left seat, which of course ensures the safety of the flight ... not.
199 hmflyer : I know it is hard for some to accept, but the Captain is the final authority as to the operation of the flight. The FAA specifies this, this is the w
200 Kaiarahi : Like Tenerife - right. But you were just saying that as long as he said he was throwing her off fer safety reasons, no one could second-guess him, ev
201 hmflyer : Nobody ever said flight crew's were perfect, we are human. However the accident rate, particularly for western carriers says we do a damn good job. Y
202 hmflyer : BTW, for every Tenerife, there are many more instances where Captain's like Captain Sullenberg made decisions that saved lives. They happen every day
203 ediCHC : But by your own argument that cannot happen. Who is there to determine if a captain's actions are reasonable or no when his or her word is final? You
204 AirNZ : It is also apparently hard for some on here to accept that a Captain is not God......they have final authority only within reason and legalty, so let
205 XFSUgimpLB41X : All the people that come back behind you and monday morning quarterback your decision. You are the final authority, but you have to back up your acti
206 Maverick623 : So long as the captain does not compromise the safety of the flight, the he absolutely does have final authority. They are ultimately responsible for
207 JoeCanuck : If you're referring to Angel, her account indicates she actually did what she was told to do, which was to take her seat. Delta has yet to release wh
208 AirstairFear : I keep seeing usage of the phrase, "safety reasons". Can someone explain to me how having a passenger back there saying anything remotely close to "we
209 Maverick623 : I'll admit I got a little off topic, as I was referring to certain users on here who feel they can question a pilot's decision to, well, make decisio
210 JoeCanuck : The problem is, the only person we've heard from who was actually involved is Angel. Delta issued their statement through a spokesperson without reve
211 ediCHC : Quite incorrect, I am saying that one account is no more reliable that the other. A lady armed with a lawyer screaming to the media, or one Capt who
212 AirframeAS : Read the book entitled "SkyGods" and get back to me, then we'll talk.
213 davescj : All authority is subject to reasonable use of it. You cannot act in an arbitrary manner. See above. It is not about political correctness. She did NO
214 davescj : Then in the interest of safety hot coffee should not be served,. Dave
215 Maverick623 : Well, there is someone else's side we didn't hear (at least not directly): the crew and all of the other passengers. ??? Of course they do. It's call
216 hmflyer : Bingo. Despite what people want to think, being an Airline Captain is not simply being a "glorified bus driver". It is quite a responsibility. In the
217 SCCutler : Thanks for that post.... best one in the thread. The system is crafted, from start to finish, to protect passenger safety. There is no need for amate
218 JoeCanuck : What...? If I smell booze on a pilot's breath or spot some other safety deficiency, I'm going to report it. It's my ass on the plane, pilots do somet
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