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Comparing The Big 3: BA/IB AF/KLM And Lufthansa  
User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3794 times:

Now that BA and Iberia are formally about to merge, I was just wondering what sort of impact this will have on the two other giants within Europe, namely Air France/KLM and Lufthansa Group.

What developments are we likely to see from BA/IB's competitors in response to the merger?

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2026 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

I am not as concerned about BA/IB as I am about AA/BA. The US-UK market is the largest single O&D country to country market in the world and they will own it.

I would expect DL to start putting more service into smaller UK airports with the 757 as well as beef up their European services from the US to keep passengers from going onto BA to connect beyond LHR. DL has a problem in that their J product is behind AA on the 763, so they will need to step up implementation of whatever they are planning on doing for that aircraft (probably the Thompson suite).

AF will defend France and Africa, full stop.
AZ will defend Italy, full stop (watch AirOne increase flights with A330s across the pond with their new J product similar to the DL product).
KL will defend northern Europe.

LH...will just blot out the sun with their aircraft and code shares (which they have the ability to do).

Beyond this, it gets a little too detailed for a long winded explanation.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Quoting baw716 (Reply 1):
AF will defend France and Africa, full stop.

I agree in part. But I believe they will defend the former French colonized countries. I think the other Afrtican countries will have more competition.


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting baw716 (Reply 1):

Im thinking DL will beef up it's UK offerings soon and hopefully they will start going a little faster on the cabin upgrade once the summer traffic slows down. The AA business class isn't much to write home about but lie flat even at an angle is better than just reclining


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7523 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting baw716 (Reply 1):
DL has a problem in that their J product is behind AA on the 763, so they will need to step up implementation of whatever they are planning on doing for that aircraft (probably the Thompson suite).

I thought DL was only sending refitted 764s to LHR from all of its U.S. gateways. Supposedly, the 764 new business cabin is top notch among U.S. carriers (I did see a video on Youtube I think, and it looked quite nice!).



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

I see the competitors opening more routes and making sure that they can do well in the markets that they are currently in. I personally believe that it will not have as great of an impact as one might think because they operate in different parts of Europe, with different goals and specialties. KL connects the Netherlands with the rest of the world; BA/IB cannot do that, AF connects France with the rest of the world; BA/IB cannot do that, LH connects Germany with the rest of the word; AF/KL and BA/IB cannot do that; BA connects Great Britain with the rest of the world; the other airlines cannot do that, and IB connects Spain with the rest of the world; the other airlines cannot do that. The point that I am trying to get across is that each of the airlines has their niche in the global marketplace, and the merger of airlines just makes that airline larger, but they cannot really take pax away from airlines like a KL, or any other airline that has one purpose: to connect their country with the rest of the world, especially if that airline is govt. owned, unlike IB.


The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

Quoting baw716 (Reply 1):
to keep passengers from going onto BA to connect beyond LHR.

even though LHR has always been an important hub for connections, other big European airports have taken over a huge portion of that role when StarAlliance and SkyTeam gained full steam years before OneWorld is permitted to play. SkyTeam and StarAlliance have a huge "established" advantage over OneWorld with connecting traffic.

OneWorld has the biggest portion of the O/D LHR market. The rest is all open for play to whomever wants it most.

[Edited 2010-08-04 20:17:32]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Quoting baw716 (Reply 1):
I am not as concerned about BA/IB as I am about AA/BA. The US-UK market is the largest single O&D country to country market in the world and they will own it.

That is not accurate. Both UA and CO are big in the market and are about to merge. And then there is Virgin, which is not aligned and a big presence in the market.

Quoting baw716 (Reply 1):
I would expect DL to start putting more service into smaller UK airports with the 757

That points to the real oddity of this market. It is not that BA and AA "will own it". It is that DL/SkyTeam have a mediocre presence in it, in spite of DL's huge transatlantic ops.


User currently offlinevv701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7256 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
That is not accurate. Both UA and CO are big in the market and are about to merge. And then there is Virgin, which is not aligned and a big presence in the market.

Yes. And DL who have 10 per cent of the total market between the USA and Europe also fly into LHR.

AA/BA currently have 58 per cent share of the seat/kilometers on offer between LHR and all destinations in the USA. (Source: Slide 102 at British Airways Investor Day Meeting, 21 May 2010.)

IAG have 55 daily flights to Canada, the USA and Mexico (including SJU) on 34 non-stop routes. AA have 36 daily flights on 26 non-stop routes. (Source: As above, Slide 112.)

But returning to the subject of this thread IAG (BA/EC/IB) have a 13 per cent share of the available seat kilometers flown between Europe and the USA, LH 11 per cent and AF/KL 10 per cent. (Source: As above, Slide 53.)

Other regional available seat kilomer shares to and from Europe are:

Latin America: IAG 19 per cent, LH 8 per cent, AF/KL 21 per cent.
Africa: IAG 9 per cent, LH 5 per cent, AF/KL 19 per cent
Middle East: IAG 5 per cent, LH less than 5 per cent, AF/KL 11 per cent
Asia-Pacific: IAG 6 per cent, LH 8 per cent, AF/KL 19 per cent
Intr-Europe: IAG 7 per cent, LH 5 per cent, AF/KL 6 per cent

As far as I can tell none of the LH figures include LX, SN etc but I am not sure about this.


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