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Air Berlin Urged To Switch To FRA For OneWorld  
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 827 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13665 times:

This article in Bloomberg states that Frankfurt Airport is trying to lure Air Berlin to have more operations in Frankfurt.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...rt-boost-oneworld-connections.html

Personally I think it is a bad idea. Why move to be in direct competition with Lufthansa when you can provide better service to the Ruhr Valley which is the most populated area of Germany and Berlin which is about as far from Lufthansa's Frankfurt and Munich hubs as you can get? It is true that Air Berlin will need to increase their connections from Dusseldorf and Berlin to other OneWorld hubs but that makes more sense than moving to Frankfurt in my opinion. I would imagine there are some people in Germany which are none to happy that so many trips require going to Frankfurt.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13645 times:

I agree, they should leave LH to FRA and MUC, and concentrate on DUS and BBI as their duel hub.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineshamrock321 From Ireland, joined May 2008, 1601 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13575 times:

Some additional flight/routes to domestic routes they dont already serve from FRA could work?

Surley for an airline the size of AB to base 5-10 aircraft at FRA wouldnt be to hard? How extensive is the AB network from FRA?


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13505 times:

They have flights to Hamburg and Berlin from Frankfurt, but another thing to consider as far as domestic services is concerned is that Frankfurt is a major hub of the German railway network as well. AA has a partnership with Deutsche Bahn's AIRail service from FRA. For solely domestic passengers there probably isn't a huge opportunity there.

User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1849 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13424 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
I agree, they should leave LH to FRA and MUC, and concentrate on DUS and BBI as their duel hub.

completely agreed. They have no chance in FRA against the huge LH network & frequency. It would be a suicidal move IMO.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13414 times:

Jeesh....

1World sure doesn't demand too much.

They just got engaged, and already it seems that 1World is telling AB how to dress, what time to go to sleep, what toothpaste to use when brushing teeth.......


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13347 times:

It isn't OW pushing AB to fly more to FRA, it is Fraport, the FRA operator.

I don't think Fraport's desire not to lose traffic is very high on Air Berlin's priority list.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13175 times:

The thread title is misleading as it is not OneWorld urging Berlin moving to FRA but FraPort. AB would not stand a chance in FRA as LH is too big. AB needs to find their niche in BER and DUS where LH is not as big.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12407 times:

I just wish that AB would have gone with SkyTeam. Then they could really interconnect the DL flights to DUS, STR and TXL flights...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4400 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12148 times:

With opening of the North runway, Fraport has some free slots to fill - so now they have to sell them. It is in the interest of FRAPORT to sell them to as many airlines as possible - and as others state if ABER places a couple of 738 in FRA to improve connection to OW, more OW carriers might choose FRA as destination.

So selling the slots to BER makes sense.

DUS is limited to the maximum number of flights, and with the new regional government of Socialists, Greenists and Stalinists nothing will improve, so no way to make it a OW hub.

Berlin is too far away from Germany to ever make a hub - if American, LAN, JAL???. Mexicana???, Cathay, Royal Jordanian, Qantas increase their connections into Germany this will be FRA and nowhere else.

Of course BA will not be too amused about too much of that, since most of this goes through LHR/MAD currently. So it is not FRA against another German airport, we speak about FRA strengthening its competition against LHR and MAD,two of its four competitors.

With Terminal 3 in construction, this might work, Terminal 1 Star, Terminal 2 everybody else, Terminal 3 OW and Holiday flying...


User currently offlineLHRNUE From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12041 times:

All I need is AB direct flight from NUE to LHR, to be a bit selfish here.

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12021 times:

I think Fraport is fearing that they lose business (CX, JL, IB, LA, QF) to BER or DUS. Especially those flying to Germany from the East might feel that BER offers them shorter flights, better connections (with AB), and a more interesting location.

User currently offlinesfojfk From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11645 times:

Quoting LHRNUE (Reply 10):
All I need is AB direct flight from NUE to LHR, to be a bit selfish here.

Me too. The single flight daily to STN doesn't work when I have to connect coming from JFK. I fly AA typically to ZRH to connect to LX to get to NUE now. Hope that AA will go to DUS as well and AB provide better connections throughout Germany.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11603 times:

LH/Star can stay at FRA and MUC, AB/OW can take on DUS and BBI. Gives both their own copetitive positions. FRAport seems to e getting greedy 

In the end they might just find it will cost LH service to MUC. Its a competitive market, so they bertter not try and annoy their major customer.

[Edited 2010-08-06 01:50:13]

User currently offlineenzedder From New Zealand, joined Aug 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11580 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
Berlin is too far away from Germany to ever make a hub

and i always thought berlin is in germany.  

enzedder


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4400 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11428 times:

[

Quoting enzedder (Reply 14):
and i always thought berlin is in germany.

After leaving Germany you drive for hours through nothing before you reach Berlin...


User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11318 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 15):
After leaving Germany you drive for hours through nothing before you reach Berlin...

I would at least hope you would get it right...  

You drive through nothing for a few hours, sit in traffic in the middle of nothing for a few hours because of congestion where the A2 meets the Berliner Ring, and then finally end up in Berlin, but not before running out of petrol because when you travel through nothing, there seem to be no Petrol stations anywhere near the Autobahn exits, just old abandoned ghost towns with no one living in them.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4400 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11237 times:

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 16):
You drive through nothing for a few hours, sit in traffic in the middle of nothing for a few hours because of congestion where the A2 meets the Berliner Ring, and then finally end up in Berlin, but not before running out of petrol because when you travel through nothing, there seem to be no Petrol stations anywhere near the Autobahn exits, just old abandoned ghost towns with no one living in them.

That made my weekend, thanks!


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11087 times:

My belief is that from OW's point of view, AB is important for two reasons:

- first, to provide feed from Germany, Austria and Switzerland for hubs like HEL (for Asia), MAD (for Latin/South America) and LHR (for North America).

- second, to offer central hubs in BER and possibly DUS for European flights involving IB, AY, MA and BA who are alle geographically on the fringes of Europe. For example, AB can offer a lot of connectivity for AY or BA passengers headed for Germany, Austria, Spain and Italy as many of the destinations served by airberlin are not served by oneworld (or only from LGW).

I do not think that flights to/from FRA figure prominently in those plans. But we might see in the long term those OW carriers currently serving FRA adding a destination like DUS or BER rather than additional frequency to FRA if AB is able to provide so much connectivity through those destinations that the relatively small amount of local traffic can be compensated.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
Fraport has some free slots to fill - so now they have to sell them

If you mean "selling" literally - generic slots are not sold, but allocated for free by the slot co-ordinator. Nothing FRAPORT could sell.


User currently offlinedaumueller From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 693 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11031 times:

Quoting LHRNUE (Reply 10):
All I need is AB direct flight from NUE to LHR, to be a bit selfish here.

i second that! or LCY...


User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10898 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
With Terminal 3 in construction, this might work, Terminal 1 Star, Terminal 2 everybody else, Terminal 3 OW and Holiday flying...

The problem with T3 will be it's location.
It will be on the south side and while the access with the car will be very good, it will be far away from both rails stations and most of the hotels. So I'm not sure if airlines or alliances will line up to move their operations to T3. T2 is still quite new and much closer to rail and hotels.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4400 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10563 times:

Don't know, is there a sky train conection planned?

User currently offlinexXMHxLHx5LXx From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 51 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10453 times:

http://www.fraport.de/cms/entwicklun...rt/dok/7/7037.neues_terminal_3.htm

Yes, they are planning to extend the SKYline people mover from T2 onwards to T3. And as far as I can remember there was an illustration on the floor of an information site at FRA (next to Check-In T area in the connector of T1 and long-distance train station) they illustrated an extra branch of the people mover directly to the train stations. No idea how that changed since the introduction of the new concept of the business center on top of the train station.

It is a bit inconvenient though to take the SKYline from T2 to T1-B and then walk all the way to the stations. It is better than not having any connection to the stations, anyway.



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User currently offlinepascal7z From Germany, joined Oct 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10284 times:

Quoting xXMHxLHx5LXx (Reply 22):
It is a bit inconvenient though to take the SKYline from T2 to T1-B and then walk all the way to the stations. It is better than not having any connection to the stations, anyway.

It is planned that the railway going from Frankfurt to Darmstadt to have an extension to Terminal 3. So there will be a rail direct connection to the Frankfurt city. Of course the connection to the Airrail Center (national railway station at FRA) will be only via Skyline and a bit tedious.



visited 298 cities, 64 countries...
User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10119 times:

I agree with the general consensus it would be better for AB to avoid the LH hubs in FRA & MUC. They should concentrate on expanding as much as they are allowed in DUS and eventually BBI. The best thing would be for AA to start serving DUS again either from ORD or JFK; however, since AB already serves JFK from DUS that only leaves ORD. AA could send in a B757 and use AB here to bring pax to Berlin, Hamburg, Spain and other destinations in the Medditeranen. OY already serves DUS and its pax could transfer to AB's flights to MIA, RSW and Spain as well. Doesn't RJ already serve DUS on a seasonal basis? No need to try to establish DUS as a mega-hub ala LHR, MAD, FRA, AMS, etc. Putting airline-speak to use DUS could become a nice little "focus city" within the Oneworld allianz.


A330 man.
25 Burkhard : There is no way to have one more weekly flight into DUS but to cancel another one, and BER will not give up its holiday buisiness ex DUS. Forget about
26 Robffm2 : It seems that AB is at least thinking about it: From the linked article: Air Berlin, the first discount airline to join one of the three main global g
27 xXMHxLHx5LXx : The question is if they can make BBI work as a real hub. There might not be too much O&D demand from Berlin itself but it might work out as a hub
28 vfw614 : While I agree that DUS is slot-constrained, it should be noted that both AB and LH have been able to expand their flights from DUS considerably over t
29 Burkhard : ... thanks for the correction, I know they are not sold, but marketing is needed by the airport anyways, so now BER knows that an application is welco
30 Post contains images PanHAM : That's the understatement of the day. They have a whopping 200.000 slots p.a. from one day to the next and LH + * won't take 70% of those, at least n
31 Thorben : Except that it is closer to Japan, Hong Kong, and Australia than FRA and MUC. It would be more useful to offer NRT-BER and then connections to FRA, t
32 PanHAM : about 20 minutes flying time at the most, depending from where over the Baltic they cut in. That's no advantage when you don't get the needed traffic
33 Ferroviarius : Burkhard certainly belongs to the decent minority, who agree on that Bonn is the only thinkable capital and should be renamed to Konradopolis... Nich
34 328JET : Air Berlin should avoid FRA and MUC whenever possible. This company is not in the financial position to compete with Lufthansa / Star on a lot of rout
35 vfw614 : It is in the interest of Lufthansa to have reasonable competition at FRA in order to appease the EU anti-trust watchdog. If they can demonstrate that
36 PanHAM : Yes, but they do have reasonable competition. No other carrier will be interested in FRA-BRU or FRA-ZRH, AB did the latter route a few months and pull
37 dldtw1962 : Wish they were going to join the Skyteam. Oneworld and Star have enough air carriers. Besides if they did join the Skyteam that would increase the mar
38 YULWinterSkies : Air Berlin works the way it is right now. Therefore: don't change it! LH is too powerful in FRA for AB to have any chance to survive there imo, plus L
39 Byrdluvs747 : The ST fans just can't get over this. Why would AB want to join a leftover alliance and then play second fiddle to AF-KL as the central euro member o
40 FlyboyOz : I think it would be impossible for AB to move to FRA. AB should stay in the Berlin Airport as a hub. I do believe that Berlin will become the largest
41 PanHAM : Berlin is the largest city already but there is no industry and trhere won't be either. It's like washington and NY, the money's in NY. FRA has the ad
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