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Why No Transatlantic From CLE?  
User currently offlineEGPH From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 262 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9728 times:

Hey all,

Question self evident from the topic title, just had a look at some airports in the US out of interest and noticed that the only non US flights offered from CLE are to Canada. Wikipedia say that CO pulled their LGW (later LHR) flight due to low demand but surprising to see no European airlines like LH or KL serving the airport.

Regards

EGPH

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9709 times:

Quoting EGPH (Thread starter):
CO pulled their LGW (later LHR) flight due to low demand

Well there you have it...

Quoting EGPH (Thread starter):
surprising to see no European airlines like LH or KL serving the airport.

Why? EWR virtually covers every destination you can reach from CLE
The merger will make things worse for CLE...
Everyone knows CLE's days are numbered...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26146 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9610 times:

Whats so special about Cleveland?
There are lots of medium sized US cities (incl ones larger then CLE) that cannot support their own Atlantic services.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9414 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Whats so special about Cleveland?
There are lots of medium sized US cities (incl ones larger then CLE) that cannot support their own Atlantic services.

CVG is a good example, since DL only has the service to CDG left out of all of the Transatlantic service DL once offered there (In favor of similar service out of DTW.).

One of the problems with CLE is location. There is a major airline hub less than 100 miles away in Detroit, and major airline hubs at ORD, IAD and PHL that are short flights away, which does make it a bit tough for them to maintain Transatlantic service.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7276 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9326 times:

Really the answer is its Cleveland. Its not a large hub, very little tourist. And besides for some medical areas I dnt see why people need to go to Cleveland from Europe. There is very little demand.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9296 times:

I've worked both CDG and LHR from CLE many times and the loads were mostly very high. CO just doesnt give CLE much of a chance just look at all the routes CLE has lost (and most werent due to low loads). I hope someday Jetblue or Airtran makes CLE a hub and CO regrets leaving.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineEGPH From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9155 times:

Thanks for the answers guys! I guess I thought CLE was a much more important city than some suggest, I mean PHL and CLT seem much smaller cities but are major hubs with many international connections! I really thought CLE would be able to sustain a similar service

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9091 times:

For this summer, we will be taking our Heathrow service to Chicago.

[Edited 2010-08-07 15:48:11 by srbmod]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinebayareapilot From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9073 times:

Quoting EGPH (Reply 7):
PHL and CLT seem much smaller

Philadelphia is the 6th largest city in the US, and the metro area is the 5th largest. Cleveland is much smaller at 43rd for the city and 26th for the metro area. Charlotte is somewhat more comparable at 18th for the city and 33rd for the metro area, but Charlotte is growing and Cleveland is shrinking.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25995 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9043 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 3):
One of the problems with CLE is location. There is a major airline hub less than 100 miles away in Detroit, and major airline hubs at ORD, IAD and PHL that are short flights away

And YYZ.


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

First TATL 757 flight I took was CLE-LGW, back in Summer 05 maybe?

It was memorable...got the exit row for that one  



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8931 times:
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Quoting cle757 (Reply 5):
I've worked both CDG and LHR from CLE many times and the loads were mostly very high. CO just doesnt give CLE much of a chance just look at all the routes CLE has lost (and most werent due to low loads). I hope someday Jetblue or Airtran makes CLE a hub and CO regrets leaving.

Continental hasn't left?

Have any of you cynics been over to the D concourse?
In "D" you have to climb over the people.

CLE 'D' Concourse


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

Quoting bayareapilot (Reply 8):

Philadelphia is the 6th largest city in the US, and the metro area is the 5th largest. Cleveland is much smaller at 43rd for the city and 26th for the metro area. Charlotte is somewhat more comparable at 18th for the city and 33rd for the metro area, but Charlotte is growing and Cleveland is shrinking.

You beat me to it bayarea. Might I add that PHL is also growing (metro-wise anyway). Chester County here is growing like crazy and is showing no signs of stopping either.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
Continental hasn't left?

Have any of you cynics been over to the D concourse?
In "D" you have to climb over the people.

I think the photo, illustrates quite nicely that while CO may not have left, CLE is hardly a major hub supporting TATL service.


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8676 times:

Would it have made any difference if the TATL service had been to a SkyTeam hub like CDG instead of LHR (or, now, a Star Alliance hub)? Or is LHR just so strong that if it can't make it on its own, there's no hope for any TATL service?

Didn't BA also fly CLE-LGW for a while? Or am I dreaming?


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25995 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8634 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 14):
Didn't BA also fly CLE-LGW for a while?

Not as far as I can recall. The Wikipedia list of former BA destinations (going back to BOAC) does include CLE but that's wrong. It includes a reference to a 1962 BOAC timetable that includes CLE on the route map, but that was an AC (then TCA) destination from YYZ, as the BOAC timetable includes routes of several carriers BA had cooperative agreements with.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8157 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
Continental hasn't left?

Based on that picture, I'd say they have. Continental Express on the other hand...



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8061 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 5):
I've worked both CDG and LHR from CLE many times and the loads were mostly very high. CO just doesnt give CLE much of a chance just look at all the routes CLE has lost (and most werent due to low loads). I hope someday Jetblue or Airtran makes CLE a hub and CO regrets leaving.

Loads don't mean anything. We of all people should know that. Withj enough feed, sure they can fill a 757 on most days but does that mean they are making money. Apparently not as there is no TATL service. Or maybe they were but they can make more and better use the a/c elsewhere. And people are saying the same thing about CVG...AirTran, Southwest, etc should/ would step in. I have yet to see it happen yet.

I do whoever wish them success; whomever takes over, if anyone. If I can make a $20 profit on a lemonade stand of 5th street and a $50 profit on 6th, i'm moving to 6th. Doesn't mean little boy Timmy won't make money of 5th thought.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):

Have any of you cynics been over to the D concourse?
In "D" you have to climb over the people.

I've been working operations for Continental for almost two weeks now in this very airport. Between banks, the place is a ghost town and forget about Tuesdays and Wednesdays. You would think the place was mothballed. But sure, there are a bunch of ERJs and Q2s taxiing around.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
Continental hasn't left?

Is that picture current? Who would ever want to fly on a B-1900 these days? Not me.

I did once in the 90's and hated it.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7956 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 18):
Is that picture current? Who would ever want to fly on a B-1900 these days? Not me.

I did once in the 90's and hated it.

That picture is very old, they havent put Beech1900's on the 28piers in years, by the way CLE-LGW started in 1999.



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU:
Why? EWR virtually covers every destination you can reach from CLE

Cleveland is a market in its own right and for those connecting, many people prefer to avoid the congestion of the NY skies.

Quoting thegreatRDU:
Everyone knows CLE's days are numbered...

You’re projecting your own bias…there are theories out there for both sides of the CLE hub, post-merger, if the merger happens.

Quoting LAXintl:

Whats so special about Cleveland?
There are lots of medium sized US cities (incl ones larger then CLE) that cannot support their own Atlantic services.
Quoting bayareapilot:
Philadelphia is the 6th largest city in the US, and the metro area is the 5th largest. Cleveland is much smaller at 43rd for the city and 26th for the metro area.

The original poster is correct ask. Cleveland is a major US city—with 2.8 million people it is the 19th largest metropolitan area in America.

Bayareapilot-city proper estimates are irrelevant as airports serve more than the core cities themselves. Plus you must include Summit county, adjacent to Cuyahoga, if you want to compare regional areas—certainly someone would drive 20-30 minutes to catch a flight.

But Cleveland is not only a major population center, with a strong O&D, but is a major business city and the US center for medicine. People come from over 80 countries a year just for medical treatment in the city.

Quoting srbmod:
One of the problems with CLE is location. There is a major airline hub less than 100 miles away in Detroit, and major airline hubs at ORD, IAD and PHL that are short flights away, which does make it a bit tough for them to maintain Transatlantic service.

this is true—CLE is in a great location—the center of 500 mile radius circle from ORD-PHL-NYC. But as all these cities have good and competing air service, it does make things tough for CLE.

Quoting EGPH:
Thanks for the answers guys! I guess I thought CLE was a much more important city than some suggest, I mean PHL and CLT seem much smaller cities but are major hubs with many international connections! I really thought CLE would be able to sustain a similar service

EGPH—your instincts are correct—CLE is a more important city than a lot the responses here suggest. PHL is a larger city, but CLT is a smaller and a less interesting place than CLE. If US merged with UA as it had wanted to years ago, CLT as a hub would probably have disappeared bowing to UA’s IAD hub. Cleveland is a hub city—for transportation and business. After deregulation, when UA left Cleveland, it became a US focus city, then a hub for CO. This is because CLE is a major market. CO never really explored the full potential of CLE as it frequently gives—then takes—routes away, especially when it wants to use its equipment to grow its two preferred hubs, IAH and EWR. From what I’ve heard, both LGW/LHR and CDG were both packed all the time. I don’t the yields, but if they were packed, it seems like they could have raised prices some to increase yields if that were really the issue. CDG was packed, despite the economy. I think CO stated that they dropped London because of a slot capacity issue at LHR, then one month later announced a new frequency to EWR. But, ultimately, you are correct, CLE should have transatlantic service to at least a few cities (LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA) as there are numerous business links between the two sides of the pond.

[Edited 2010-08-07 21:55:16]

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7764 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 20):
CLE should have transatlantic service to at least a few cities (LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA) as there are numerous business links between the two sides of the pond.

We do have open skies. CO isn't the only one that can/ has to run CLE-LHR/CDG/AMS/FRA. Yet, I don't see the carriers from across the pond beating down Cleveland's door. If the market was there, there would be flights. Many other cities of comparable size and larger with little to know international traffic.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineTUSdawg23 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7638 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 20):
CLE should have transatlantic service to at least a few cities (LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA) as there are numerous business links between the two sides of the pond.

LOL seriously man. What are your sources? Also, yes Cleveland is known for medicine like the Cleveland Clinic, but not enough to support daily TATL flights. Why would any airline add TATL flights to a region whose population has been shrinking for years?

There are far bigger, more lucrative markets that airlines want to use for TATL than CLE, lets face it. CLE was an opportunity for CO to come in and have a small prescience in the midwest, but assuming the UA merger goes through, ORD will easily fulfill that role and then some. There will be absolutely no reason for CLE to exist as a hub after that.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7509 times:
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Quoting 26point2 (Reply 18):
Is that picture current? Who would ever want to fly on a B-1900 these days? Not me.

You haven't heard? The 1900's and Q400's are coming back to join the Q200's . Anyway, this is pretty much what it looked like on Friday. Btw, Friday I flew CLE-MSY in an ERJ-145. Hot coffee and snacks aboard. Not bad at all if I say so myself.   

Do you guys get something out of trashing CLE?


User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7359 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 20):
CLE should have transatlantic service to at least a few cities (LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA) as there are numerous business links between the two sides of the pond.

Such as? I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it. From this simple look at Flightaware http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KCLE/enroute

it looks like 90+% of the flights into/out of CLE are regional flights....if they can't even get a good number of mainline flights in there, how on earth can they sustain TATL flight(s, as you say) with any regularity?

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):

Do you guys get something out of trashing CLE?

Trashing? I don't see it like that....we're having an informed discussion about the topic. Just because some may not agree with opposing views does not mean anybody is trashing CLE. Now, somebody saying "CLE sucks, I'd never go there, it's total crap" is trashing. To my knowledge, nobody has said anything close to that here..


25 jimbobjoe : The City of Cleveland has lost population, but the region has not. The population of NE Ohio has been pretty stable. I'd suggest different reasons fo
26 fun2fly : Ricky Smith has cured most of the woes of the facility itself (fees are down, passenger services are up, new air mall, etc.). Commendable really. The
27 goCOgo : By Combined Statistical Area (a better measure of international flight catchment area), CLE is the 16th largest, and the 2nd largest city without tran
28 FlyASAGuy2005 : The 1900s have been in Cleveland for quite some time now.
29 LAXdude1023 : No, its the 26th largest metro area. Its the 16th largest Combined Statistical area. However, the area (not just the city of Cleveland is losing peop
30 Post contains images kgaiflyer : And the baton has been passed from Great Lakes Aviation to Gulfstream International.
31 2travel2know2 : Other than weekend service to major leisure destinations in the Caribbean like CUN, MBJ, PUJ, SXM... most likely CLE could sustain a daily (down to 4
32 DCAYOW : I seem to recall Cleveland once had service to Yugoslavia on Jugoslovenski Aerotranport JAT (DC-10s). I believe it was during the 1980s. It was probab
33 Antoniemey : No... Everyone knows that the future of service at CLE is uncertain. You BELIEVE that CLE's days as a hub are numbered. And Lake County, Lorain Count
34 greenair727 : I like this approach as it makes a lot of sense. I remember it--it was non-stop to/from CLE in one direction--don't remember which--so it was either:
35 usflyer msp : Wow, I could not disagree with you more. I predict that within 5 years most of the CO/UA capacity at CLE will have been reallocated to ORD and especi
36 jeffrey1970 : PHL is less then a 100 miles from EWR, not much more then a 100 miles from IAD, so I do not think distance from another Hub is the problem for CLE.
37 kgaiflyer : You're close: --IAD-PHL = 135 air miles --JFK-PHL = 93 air miles --BWI-PHL = 90 air miles --EWR-PHL = 80 air miles ---------------------------------
38 MEA-707 : No, there is an Embraer Brasilia (third from the bottom) and they didn't fly that type since 2002.
39 YULWinterSkies : Well, it's been tried, but stopped. So the answer is no. Yeah, but you're comparing some of the US's largest cities vs 2 of the Midwest (and in this
40 kgaiflyer : Excuse me? This is what Concourse D looked like on Friday when I was there. The picture is not from Friday. But then I never said it was. Btw, I've f
41 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Actually, Baltimore is currently the murder capital of the US. On that basis, CLE can't compete.
42 AVLAirlineFreq : So much of this thread as to why CLE doesn't currently have TATL service seems to center upon O&D from Cleveland and her environs. But how much do
43 GSPflyer : Delta Connection currently flies DTW-CLE with a mixture of CRJ and ERJ-145 (3X daily both days I looked)
44 MasseyBrown : One of the things UA has to consider in reducing CLE is how much of the traffic would they lose to DL in DTW or AA in ORD. It's not just a matter of s
45 USAirALB : It's hard to compare CLE to CLT. CLT is the 2nd largest finacial center in the country, on top of that, you have BMW in nearby Greenville, in additio
46 MAH4546 : No, its not. It just is #2 in bank headquarters.
47 fun2fly : Are they all exclusively EAS service? It's called capital. How much money will it cost UA to add 15 gates at ORD? It would cost damn near nothing at
48 bayareapilot : Interesting you bring up STL, because if you want to see what will happen to CLE post-merger, just look at what happened to STL post-merger. And the
49 joeman : Here's examples of "informed discussion" No statistics provided
50 kgaiflyer : None needed, I think. If you can contradict my posting. please inform the list.
51 TOMMY767 : No, that's not even that busy for CO and CLE. They had a larger hub in pre 2008 summer oil crisis. It was clear from there on out that the real focus
52 greenair727 : You're right--its hard to compare. I don't live in either city, but I'd take CLE any day over CLT.
53 TOLtommy : How'd you do that? When was there CLE-CDG service? High loads don't equal profits if you have to underprice the seats to fill the plane. Easy connect
54 thegreatRDU : Unless the new UA management is completely inept...CLE will not maintain it's present level of service... What are you talking about...your not even
55 USAirALB : That's what I meant, sorry. But it is still a major financial center for the US. I'm sure you'd rather have BOA headquartered in RDU than CLT.
56 Post contains links Lawair : For 2008 it was Detroit among cities with 500,000+ in population (a list that excludes Cleveland). http://michiganmessenger.com/20414/d...it-is-offic
57 Antoniemey : Not sure how I can make it any clearer... Nothing with regards to service at CLE is set in stone. CO/UA COULD drop CLE's hub status... Or they could
58 usflyer msp : I really don't think UA would need to add more gates ORD...they could just make all of B & C mainline again. Even if they needed to add more it r
59 FlyASAGuy2005 : Yep. All are covered by EAS.
60 USAirALB : A 757 should be able to do CLE-FRA, the route is 1 mile shorter than CVG-AMS.
61 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Sounds like you guys learned a lot Now back on topic?
62 747fan : Good point, however DL's 757's have Pratt's on them (instead of RR's like CO) which give those aircraft slightly more range. The 757 should be fine o
63 usflyer msp : My point is that UA probably wouldn't add that many flights out of ORD, they would just upgrade most of them to mainline...i.e. instead of flying 7x
64 thegreatRDU : Thanks Tony for reiterating my point...
65 flyerboy1990 : Well I pray that Airtran would never move to CLE as they have a good operation at CAK (Akron-Canton). I really love CAK and it seems they expanded th
66 goCOgo : United's 757's have P&W engines. Granted, the UA 757's would need some work to get up to international snuff, but given CO's routes to TXL and HA
67 WA707atMSP : I think at one point in the 1960s AC flew DC-8s (with a change of flight number) CLE-YYZ-LHR. PA did fly A310s CLE-DTW-LGW, and even carried local tr
68 DualQual : Beat me to it!
69 pitrules : I posted the following in one of the PIT threads some time ago regarding JAT service to PIT, as well as CLE and DTW. The reply was geared toward PIT
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