scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11344 posts, RR: 50 Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12652 times:
It seems that Air India is looking at what planes can replace the 747s it currently uses for VVIP flights. Allegedly, the choice is between the A340-500 and the 748i. While this seems like a slightly bizarre contest, the reasons stated for the choices are even more bizarre.
Quote: “It was felt that only either the A-340-500 or the new Boeing 747-8 were wide-bodied and large enough to carry the Prime Minister and his party in place of the current jumbo jets,” sources said.
Interesting. If the A340-500 is being considered, then why not the 77W or 77L which AI already operates? Likewise, if the 748i is in the race, why isn't the A380?
airceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12616 times:
I'm guessing the 748 and 345 are in contention purely on the basis of greater ETOPS flexibility. I would imagine that a head of state plane needs that degree of flexibility. Only longer flights if the PM is in flight say from DEL to IAD and there is an in flight diversion 4 engines would give more options than 2. Unlikely I know but it has to be a consideration.
airceo
blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
cloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2425 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12462 times:
Quoting airceo (Reply 1): I'm guessing the 748 and 345 are in contention purely on the basis of greater ETOPS flexibility.
I'm guessing because the T in ETOPS stands for TWIN-ENGINE, it does not apply to the quads mentioned.
I'm also guessing twins are not considered because of the old school thinking within the bureaucratic Indian government about the risk of loosing an engine on an aeroplane with only 2 engines. As far as I can recall only BA managed to crash a twin because of loosing both engines. And that was a freak accident involving all holes being aligned in the piece of swiss cheese.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21444 posts, RR: 24 Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12413 times:
Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3): Quoting airceo (Reply 1):
I'm guessing the 748 and 345 are in contention purely on the basis of greater ETOPS flexibility.
I'm guessing because the T in ETOPS stands for TWIN-ENGINE, it does not apply to the quads mentioned.
Since 3 and 4 engine aircraft were included as part of the FAA's ETOPS rules in 2007, their definition of ETOPS since then has been "Extended Operations". No longer any reference to "Twin".
FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2347 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12084 times:
The A380 is probably a too much plane.
Vasu
Probably as Air India will soon sell their 744 fleet , and as no particular 744 out of their fleet is VIP , perhaps it's time for India to have their Air Force One plane , and do not forget India is no more a small economic country now.............
If india do not want twins , so yes only the 748I and A340-500 can be purchased , ruling out the Ill96 !
AirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1544 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11638 times:
from the article
Quote: While the unified Air India is still in the process of acquiring a total of 111 aircraft (from both Boeing and Airbus), for which contracts were signed with the two aviation giants a few years back, none of these aircraft was considered suitable to replace the giant Boeing 747-400s. These 111 aircraft include modern ones such as the Boeing 777 and 787 “Dreamliner”, but it was felt these were not large enough to replace the Boeing 747-400 jumbo jets as the new Air India One. “It was felt that only either the A-340-500 or the new Boeing 747-8 were wide-bodied and large enough to carry the Prime Minister and his party in place of the current jumbo jets,” sources said
So a 777 is not large enough to replace a 747, agreed. but then how does a 345 compare.......
I think it all boils down to
Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3): twins are not considered because of the old school thinking within the bureaucratic Indian government about the risk of loosing an engine on an aeroplane with only 2 engines
AirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1544 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11484 times:
Quoting Jana (Reply 7): Has that vvip AI plane a special or common AI livery
its an AI livery..... I think there is one a/c dedicated to vvip travel and is configured. maybe some one can shd light on the reg.
airceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11297 times:
Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3): I'm guessing because the T in ETOPS stands for TWIN-ENGINE, it does not apply to the quads mentioned.
Guess again. The acronym ETOPS has been bastardized to the point that it also includes past standards. But don't let that stop you from chiming in though.
airceo
blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
reality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 375 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11288 times:
ETOPS is an acronym for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards
ETOPS may be replaced by a newer system, referred to as LROPS or "Long Range Operational Performance Standards", which will affect all civil airliners, not just those with a twin-engine configuration. Until the mid-1980s, the term EROPS (extended range operations) was used before being superseded by ETOPS usage. Currently, the ETOPS term is commonly used for operations previously described as LROPS or EROPS.[1]
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26673 posts, RR: 83 Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11247 times:
I would not be surprised if the plan was to purchase an existing A340-500 passenger model and convert it to a VIP (as a number of customers have done) whereas the 747-8 VIP would by necessity be be a new purchase.
So the A345 would be the "lower cost" option and the 747-8 VIP would be the "new airplane" option (at a higher price).
anshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11216 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13): I would not be surprised if the plan was to purchase an existing A340-500 passenger model and convert it to a VIP (as a number of customers have done) whereas the 747-8 VIP would by necessity be be a new purchase.
Purchasing a second hand plane, especially from a foreign carrier (because no Indian carrier operates one, unless of course they pick up an ex-IT bird) wouldn't sit well with the ego of the Government of an economic powerhouse such as India.
karan69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2778 posts, RR: 19 Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9784 times:
Quoting scbriml (Thread starter): nteresting. If the A340-500 is being considered, then why not the 77W or 77L which AI already operates?
Requirement of the IAF is that it be a quad rather than a twin
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13): would not be surprised if the plan was to purchase an existing A340-500 passenger model and convert it to a VIP
Hey , Ya they are in serious talks with TG, also boeing team to soon make a presentation for the 748, but after a Suit filed by AI against Boeing for the 787 delays [which is a lot more than the 300 odd million USD, yoll hearing ] i think Boeing and Indian Govt are gonna have sour relations
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4248 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8352 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 17): In time, I expect that many of the 30+ A345s built will end up flying rich or famous or important or self-important people around in luxury.
GolfOscarDelta From India, joined Feb 2008, 168 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8217 times:
Boeing and the U.S.'s record on selling presidential planes in the past isn't exactly stellar.
Quote: China has said its intelligence officers found more than 20 spying devices in a Boeing 767 meant to become President Jiang Zemin's official plane after it was delivered from the U.S., the Financial Times said on Saturday.
Quote: The aircraft was made at the Boeing factory in Seattle and then fitted with VIP equipment and upholstery by another company. The plane was under surveillance by Chinese officials throughout, the newspaper said.
A Boeing spokesman declined to comment on the report.
Quote: The National Security Agency, the supersecret eavesdropping agency, working with the Federal Bureau of Investigation and other intelligence organizations, led an operation to plant bugs in a Boeing 767 used by the president of China while it was in the United States for refitting, officials said
Considering that and the fact that India seems to be cozying up with the EU of late. The A345 might just see some more orders. However in Indian acquisition contracts kickbacks and payoffs nearly have as much weight as the product performance specs satisfying your mission requirements so you never know what you're gonna get.
Quoting AirIndia (Reply 8): I think there is one a/c dedicated to vvip travel and is configured. maybe some one can shd light on the reg.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11704 posts, RR: 52 Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7789 times:
How many people and how much equipment travel with the PM?
Yes, India and Boeing are having disputes now, but so has India and EADS, like on the A-330MRTTs.
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8415 posts, RR: 13 Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7567 times:
If they're considering the A345 and 748, why not the A346?
shankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1470 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6857 times:
Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 3): As far as I can recall only BA managed to crash a twin because of loosing both engines. And that was a freak accident involving all holes being aligned in the piece of swiss cheese
anshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6069 times:
Quoting karan69 (Reply 14): Hey , Ya they are in serious talks with TG, also boeing team to soon make a presentation for the 748, but after a Suit filed by AI against Boeing for the 787 delays [which is a lot more than the 300 odd million USD, yoll hearing ] i think Boeing and Indian Govt are gonna have sour relations
As far as I heard, its not a suit. Besides, every airline is entitled to compensation for delayed delivery of aircraft. And the delay is well over two years here. And its caused major setback to AI's fleet plans. I think the demand for compensation is well justified.
25 MrFord: While true, in these cases (plus TS236 and others), it wasn't a particular engine fault that brought those planes down, but a more general fault that
26 Jana: When the Indian government buys their new or pre-owend state aircraft and it is going to get a vvip furbishedinterior then it shall not receive an Air
27 YULWinterSkies: Please correct me if i'm wrong on that, but ETOPS certification does not depend only on the aircraft type, but also on the airline. Say, if an airlin
28 jfk777: WHY is it " Air India ONE" and not "India One". IS it painted in Air India colors ? or a color sceam indicative of India ? Seems Air India is very inv
29 Stitch: That hasn't stopped a number of wealthy states from taking the A340-500. I agree. It seems the perfect role for them. They have plenty of space. They
31 zeke: Government aircraft are considered "state" aircraft, and therefore under ICAO conventions do not need to meet such requirements. Depends on the state
32 airceo: Interesting... is that purely decided on the basis of identifier? i.e. if it was an AI charter operating as AIXXX for the government where would that
33 zeke: Only military, police, and customs aircraft are considered "state" aircraft. A civil aircraft can be used for military purposes, various governments
34 frigatebird: The A340-500 looks so much better than an average aircraft - But the 747-8 is not of that kind! It may look a little better than a 747-8 perhaps, but
35 na: Wasnt the Indian Air Force interested in taking not just one, but several of the AI 744s? As VIP jets those planes should be good for another 15 - 20
36 DEVILFISH: If they're considering acquiring five aircraft, then the Whalejet wouldn't be too much of a plane. Granting there is indeed such heavy baggage, takin
37 Burkhard: While ETOPS rules don't apply, it is still a fact that in case of a controlled engine shutdown or engine failure the aircraft must go down to the next
38 Viscount724: However many other countries do generally follow FAA policies, especially where US-built aircraft are involved..
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