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Delta Looks To Shed CVG Buildlings  
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1160 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8853 times:

Is this the beginning of the end of CVG as a Hub

http://nky.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs....icle?AID=/AB/20100805/BIZ/8060323/

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8844 times:

And a Comair asset sale in 3...2...1...

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3295 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8520 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Thread starter):
Is this the beginning of the end of CVG as a Hub

Beginning of the end? That was a long time ago. This is more like the final cut. The sale will be announced at the same time DL formally turns the hub into a focus city.....

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 1):
And a Comair asset sale in 3...2...1...

Aside from the 70 seaters, what would another carrier want? If DL wanted to keep the 50 seaters around, they could've asset transferred them to XJ as part of the sale to Pinnacle (gag).


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

well, if you cut your use of those buildings so dramatically then why have the cost of owning something you don't really need? Hardly surprising given the changes at CVG over the past few years.

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3756 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

Returning Concourses A and B to the KCAB, both currently with leases until January 1, 2014, and after returning Concourse C? Wow, CVG's days must be coming to a close quickly.

I feel that within 6 months, DL will turn CVG from a hub into an "enhanced focus city operation" that would only need 12 gates, tops. CDG would be gone, as would the likes of ALB, CHS, CLE, DEN, EVV, FWA, GSP, SBN, MCI, and SDF, among others. (HTS would be switched to ATL or DTW.)

I could see the remaining cities from CVG being something along the lines of:
ATL
BDL
BOS
DCA
DTW
JFK
JAX
LAS
LAX
LGA
MCO
MEM
MIA
MSP
RSW
SFO
SLC



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3295 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Yeah true, but by holding on to the facilities and the deal that was cut to bring the hub to CVG, DL has been able to keep other airlines out of CVG. DL is going to want a sweetheart deal to give the buildings up and allow other airlines into T3. I'd really say it's 50/50 if it'll happen. DL can continue to pay the costs of the buildings and keep competition out of CVG.

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8175 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
I feel that within 6 months, DL will turn CVG from a hub into an "enhanced focus city operation"

yeah yeah yeah, and the same thing was being said 12 months ago....no one really knows how long the CVG saga will actually be.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
Aside from the 70 seaters, what would another carrier want?

hard to say, but I could see Comair possibly becoming a stand-alone company. they've really diversified over the past few years with the different services they provide. I hope some how the Comair name can survive though, being the trail-blazing regional carrier it was, it would be sad to see it completely disappear.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
CDG would be gone


don't hold your breath on this one.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10466 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7661 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
Aside from the 70 seaters, what would another carrier want? If DL wanted to keep the 50 seaters around, they could've asset transferred them to XJ as part of the sale to Pinnacle (gag).

I heard somewhere....maybe on here, that Skywest might be interested in OH.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3295 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7346 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 6):
I could see Comair possibly becoming a stand-alone company. they've really diversified over the past few years with the different services they provide.

I was unaware of that. What else do they do? I know the ground ops was spun off into REAS, which is a standalone company. I didn't think they did anything but provide lift for DL now.

Quoting mayor (Reply 7):
I heard somewhere....maybe on here, that Skywest might be interested in OH.

There was an article in the CVG Business Journal about that possibility. It didn't sound like there was any substance to the rumor. I really think Comair's aged fleet of 50 seaters (esp the -100's) combined with their high labor costs makes them unattractive. I think they are in the same position as Eagle, to be honest. I'd hate to see Comair disappear as well, since they were such a leader at one time. But... I think it's becoming more of a possibility every day....


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7272 times:

So what future service will we see other airlines offer, assuming DL continues to draw down?

I'm wondering about:
UA to SFO (seems logical to offer 1x/day if DL drops the route, a la PIT)

US to PHX (same as above, especially since they run 2x out of CMH so CVG should support at least that)

AA to LAX (not sure if DL will drop this given their hublet/gateway @ LAX, but if they do, AA could potentially run it)

AS to SEA (total guess -- just a thought that if DL drops SEA, AS might pick it up to add a new market and still allow DL pax to earn on the flight since it would be a DL partner and not a competitor. This would also feed SEA Asia flights)

AA mainline to DFW (just like CMH, where the only mainline is to DFW, a couple times a day)

US to DCA (I can't remember if after the slot swap fell through this is still on the table)

Possible increased UA mainline to ORD, maybe add one to DEN or IAD? (just throwing these out there)

New/replacement international service -- I'm assuming AA to LHR or CO to FRA or something would be the most likely options were DL to drop CDG (which I don't see) and there to be sufficient demand.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts.


User currently onlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6572 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

[quote=flyguy89,reply=6]don't hold your breath on this one.[/quote

IF the hub goes, CDG goes.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7111 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 8):
I was unaware of that. What else do they do? I know the ground ops was spun off into REAS, which is a standalone company. I didn't think they did anything but provide lift for DL now.


Not sure how the cut of the Regional Elite contract in CVG affected this, but they provide a lot of contracted below and above-the-wing services for DL as well as other carriers such as United Express in an attempt to branch out from solely contracted connection flying.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 10):

IF the hub goes, CDG goes.


The same argument has been brought up before many times. With the CVG hub down to around 160 flights a day, CVG-CDG is still doing well as a daily 767ER. At the very least, DL would most probably maintain daily 757 service to CDG post-hub, but anything could happen if DL just wants to make CVG a spoke (hard to believe though with the huge SkyMiles and corporate following they have there). Either way, the Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky chambers of commerce will most probably offer incentives to lock in a TATL flight from any carrier, they've already offered DL money to return either FRA or LON.


User currently onlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6572 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7075 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
t the very least, DL would most probably maintain daily 757 service to CDG post-hub, but anything could happen if DL just wants to make CVG a spoke (hard to believe though with the huge SkyMiles and corporate following they have there). Either way, the Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky chambers of commerce will most probably offer incentives to lock in a TATL flight from any carrier, they've already offered DL money to return either FRA or LON.

The wild card I believe is incentives. I'm sure the flight is successful today in large part due to connections from other cities. If CVG turns into a simple focus city, it wouldn't surprise me if they kept CDG only if they received incentives. And it would probably be something like PIT with a less-than-daily 757.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7031 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
The same argument has been brought up before many times. With the CVG hub down to around 160 flights a day, CVG-CDG is still doing well as a daily 767ER. At the very least, DL would most probably maintain daily 757 service to CDG post-hub, but anything could happen if DL just wants to make CVG a spoke (hard to believe though with the huge SkyMiles and corporate following they have there). Either way, the Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky chambers of commerce will most probably offer incentives to lock in a TATL flight from any carrier, they've already offered DL money to return either FRA or LON.

From what I hear on here, the corporate travek from Cincinnati should be plenty to keep at least one transatlantic flight a day. Personally, I wonder if the market can support CVG-CDG and CVG-FRA/LHR/etc. anymore without connections or substantial subsidies, but I definitely wouldn't complain about more international service.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 13):
Personally, I wonder if the market can support CVG-CDG and CVG-FRA/LHR/etc. anymore without connections or substantial subsidies, but I definitely wouldn't complain about more international service.

I'm sure it would probably be, on average, marginally profitable. Strong on some days, weak on others, that's why incentives would probably be necessary to lock it in, I'm thinking of something along the lines of RDU's flight to LHR.


User currently offlineSeatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 10):
IF the hub goes, CDG goes.

For a city the size of Cincinnati, we have a disporportionate number of corporate HQ's including P&G, Kroger, Macy's, GE (engines), Luxottica and others. I would think that the city could support continued CDG service without a subsidy.


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

I dunno... Sounds like a good business move on DL's part. Why pay for what you're not using? per the article, they'll still be leasing (more or less) the facilities they need/use now, so...


"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

Several CVG cities are CR9 right now including through the fall such as EWR and PHL. I don't understand if/when DL is shutting the "enhanced focus city" down, why some cities are getting an increase in capacity? It seems like DL is still interested in keeping a presence in CVG for business prospects.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 17):
Several CVG cities are CR9 right now including through the fall such as EWR and PHL. I don't understand if/when DL is shutting the "enhanced focus city" down, why some cities are getting an increase in capacity? It seems like DL is still interested in keeping a presence in CVG for business prospects.

Summer travel season? Why is MSP TVC a 319 right now when post merger it was RJ's?



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6661 times:

My comment about an asset sale of Comair was precisely because there's likely nobody out there that would want them in their current form. Skywest is drooling on as many 900s as they can possibly get and a few extra 700s couldn't hurt either. Do they need facilities and ancient CRj200s? Nope. That's why I think it will be an asset sale with some sort of negotiated deal for some staff to come along for the ride.

User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6521 times:

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 18):
Summer travel season? Why is MSP TVC a 319 right now when post merger it was RJ's?

I know for at least EWR they are seeing CR7/CR9 this fall from CVG. Last year it was 4x E145 with no premium cabin.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineMLD9S From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5068 times:

So....I have a question.

I would think that if Delta WANTS this....it is obviously a benefit for them, correct?

So, in negotiating, could the airport authority not say: "Okay, we will do this for you. However, in exchange, that deal where any incentive we offer another carrier, we have to offer you? (You know, that silly agreement we've regretted for ages.) That deal goes away."

It seems like Delta is leaving a lot of empty space in CVG and this is a sign they may want to create more empty space. Why is it not unreasonable, if the airport is up to negotiating, that the airport should be able to get rid of that deal?


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5005 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Yeah true, but by holding on to the facilities and the deal that was cut to bring the hub to CVG, DL has been able to keep other airlines out of CVG. DL is going to want a sweetheart deal to give the buildings up and allow other airlines into T3. I'd really say it's 50/50 if it'll happen. DL can continue to pay the costs of the buildings and keep competition out of CVG.

That made sense when CVG was a hub. Today, I really don't think DL really cares. Key markets willstay, but staving off? Highly doubt it.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 17):
Several CVG cities are CR9 right now including through the fall such as EWR and PHL. I don't understand if/when DL is shutting the "enhanced focus city" down, why some cities are getting an increase in capacity? It seems like DL is still interested in keeping a presence in CVG for business prospects.

The same can be said for many spoke and 'focus' cities. I don't think CVG will be any different. We will coninute to see large RJs and some mainline on certain routes that need the premium cabin or lift.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineboeing6594 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

I also have a question...

DL operates out of Concourse B, which is larger than Concourse A as I understand it. If DL continues to cut flights and further reduces operations out of CVG, would DL move back into Concourse A, and shut B down?

Thanks in advance.

-Matt


User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

Quoting boeing6594 (Reply 23):
I also have a question...

DL operates out of Concourse B, which is larger than Concourse A as I understand it. If DL continues to cut flights and further reduces operations out of CVG, would DL move back into Concourse A, and shut B down?

Thanks in advance.

highly doubtful, concourse B is by far more nicer (and newer) than concourse A.


25 TOMMY767 : So if your honest opinion do you think this trend with DL at CVG will continue with the "additional lift?" I've noticed LGA and BOS were 738s this pa
26 flyguy89 : Per what the KCAB has been saying, DL's cuts went a little too far at the end of last summer and the reworked schedule was not good for local travele
27 TOLtommy : Comair is out of the ground handling game. Not sure what you mean by your post, but the above and below wing services formerly provided by Comair are
28 DTWPurserBoy : If DL still controls the facilities it effectively keeps Southwest and Allegiant from attempting to establish a hub in Delta's backyard.
29 Indy : It would be nice to see a market the size of CVG maintain service like CDG without a hub but simply having a corporate HQ isn't going to do it. I dou
30 Post contains images mayor : Hell just froze over and I expect my Cubs to make a turnaround and go on to win the World Series!
31 Post contains images MSYtristar : Next year will be our year. There's always next year.
32 flyguy89 : wow I didn't know this, I had kept up with them over the past few years and at a time recently they were trying to diversify which I thought was a sm
33 Indy : So perhaps P&G does. My point was that simply having a HQ is really meaningless. I think we could agree that a place like Kroger doesn't demand m
34 MSYtristar : I'm sure the company contributes a fair bit, but the fact remains, it'll be highly unlikely for the CDG flight to stay, post hub (again, assuming it
35 Indy : The problem if subsidies are needed is that for the most part cities are broke. They don't have the money to throw around at airlines. Businesses aren
36 LHCVG : That may not be true, based on what people say on here about P&G international demand. There is a joke floating around that the J cabin on the CV
37 Post contains images nwaesc : What took you so long to get here?!
38 MasseyBrown : This assumes Southwest or Allegiant has such plans. If I were the KCAB, I wouldn't be in a rush to let DL off the hook unless there was a new tenant
39 Post contains images mayor : I'm just not as quick as I used to be! It works both ways.......the KCAB would have to have something to offer a new carrier in the way of facilities
40 TOLtommy : I guess we'll see what DL has learned from Kroger in this case. Kroger is notorious for building newer, bigger stores near existing locations, and the
41 flyguy89 : I do agree, I was just speaking more broadly about demand for service in general, but yes Kroger probably isn't sending too many people abroad, but t
42 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : IF CVG-CDG is indeed still profitable off of mostly o&d I would expect to see it run until DLs leases end...after that point its anyones guess
43 PSU.DTW.SCE : Its difficult to draw any solid conclusions about DL's intention in CVG from the proposed sale of buildings and facilities. Right now, obviously, the
44 lexy : Where are they getting the money? Kentucky, as a state, is out of money and having some fairly large budget issues already. The state coffers are hur
45 flyguy89 : And at the same time it could also give them an easy out and get rid of any anchor that might be keeping them in CVG period, it'll be a tough decisio
46 CompensateMe : Despite the upcoming cuts at CVG, much of the spring/summer restoration (frequency, cities and equipment) is currently scheduled to remain. The net ef
47 AADC10 : Probably little to none. CVG has had outsized service relative to its O&D so it can shrink quite a bit before it is down to the size that the reg
48 pitops : We get alot of WN passengers in CMH. Maybe WN will try and add some flights to CVG in the future.
49 Avconsultant : I do not see any airline starting a new hub until the economy has stabled out. As mentioned in other post, SW has CVG surrounded. Allegiant maybe, bu
50 rwy04lga : I know, right?
51 Post contains images nwaesc : Tough crowd...
52 DTWPurserBoy : An excellent point. Also sitting there "in the neighborhood" is a hugely wasted space at PIT. When the economy turns around someone would jump on suc
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