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Iberia To Asia. Where's The Problem?  
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 663 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8333 times:

Hi all,

As you may already know, Iberia has no service to Asia and there's no indication that they will launch any service in the future. My question is why Iberia can't operate a single profitable to route to Asia. I do not expect them to have a huge network, but it surprises me that they can't even fly some times a week to PEK, HKG or NRT, for example. So, I would like to know the possible reasons of this. I suppose it is related to market size, and to the fact that there isn't enough market to sustain it, but it shocks me that even with connections (IB's network at one end: Spain, Portugal, West Africa, Latam; and OW at the other: JAL in NRT and CX in HKG), there's no enough demand. A flight MAD-HKG would be a hub-to-hub route for OW, as well as MAD-NRT.

It surprises even more if we look at the high number of european airlines that serve PEK, HKG or NRT.

NRT: AF, AZ, OS, BA, AY, KL, LH, SK, LX, VS
HKG: AF, BA, AY, KL, LH, LX.
PEK: AF, OS, BA, AY, KL, LH, SK

Finally, I suppose that with the BA-IB merger, Iberia to Asia will be less likely than without it, but it stills surprises me that more than 10 cities in Europe can have a flight to Tokyo and MAD is unable.

Thanks for your answers in advance.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8268 times:
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Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
HKG: AF, BA, AY, KL, LH, LX.

Virgin Atlantic flies to Hong Kong.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8269 times:
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Well, Hong Kong since that is OW partners Cathay Pacific's home would be logical. Peking and Tokyo would be too.

User currently offlineseemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 971 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8175 times:

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
but it stills surprises me that more than 10 cities in Europe can have a flight to Tokyo and MAD is unable.

Me too, MAD did have a JL service to NRT and IB once served Tokyo. Iberia does serve some of Asia; TLV, AMM and DAM.



seemyseems
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 907 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8167 times:

There are approx 13 flights a day (BA/IB) MAD LHR so connecting LHR HKG with BA or CX is easy. Ditto BA to PEK/PVG, BA/JL to TYO. In addition, you have EK just started daily MAD DXB, QR flies BCN/MAD to DOH, and SQ BCN/SIN. I would guess that IB has done the numbers and for now is concentrating on areas where they know they make money (eg LATAM) and has no wish to enter the frenzy to Asia.


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26170 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8100 times:

We talked about this only a couple months ago.

Anyhow one thing that works against routes to the Far-East is geography. Spain is on the far southwest edge of Europe, so unlike France, Germany or more central countries virtually all the traffic must be generated in the Iberian peninsula as people are not going to back-track to Spain to catch a flight to Japan. One hope IB could have is to connect some South America traffic to Asia, but even that has many options to chose from these days.
Also the fact that Spain historically has not had much business links at the Far-East, nor is a large business destination on its own further reduces viability of long-haul service.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8061 times:

It's all about going after your bread and butter - and for IB, they would much rather focus on Latin America. They currently serve 17 routes out of MAD - soon to be 18 with COR coming soon.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7987 times:

Maybe the "problem" is in London. I mean, with a unified BA-IB, LHR would be the natural gateway to Asia, while MAD would be the natural gateway to Latin America.

Planes such as the 787 might make Asia-MAD flights more feasible due to lower fuel costs.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4070 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7965 times:

Rumors in another thread, TP asking for permission to fly to China, only obviate the lack of service from Madrid to Asia.


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User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7885 times:

Air Europa and another Spanish airline (I think it was Air Madrid - now bankrupt) flew to Beijing and Shanghai for a while. That was soon reduced to just Beijing and then cancelled all together. It appears that long-haul flights to South America are more profitable. Air China now flies from Beijing to Sao Paulo via Madrid. I've always thought that Hong Kong would be a good option, with CX connections to the Phillipines and Taiwan. Right now, you need at least 2 stops to get to Taiwan (I flew TPE-HKG-BKK-SVO-LHR-MAD).

User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1786 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7625 times:

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
Finally, I suppose that with the BA-IB merger, Iberia to Asia will be less likely than without it, but it stills surprises me that more than 10 cities in Europe can have a flight to Tokyo and MAD is unable.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
Maybe the "problem" is in London. I mean, with a unified BA-IB, LHR would be the natural gateway to Asia, while MAD would be the natural gateway to Latin America.

I actually think the BA-IB merger might work in favor of MAD-Asia flights. First of all because it might force a shape up in IB's on board product and service - which are key in high yield ultra long haul. But secondly, the fast-growing business market between Latin America and Asia will demand a one-stop connection - not the two that would be required if all BA-IB flights to Asia are out of LHR. So I think PVG and NRT (aided by a hopefully resurgent JL) are not that far on the horizon from MAD.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
Planes such as the 787 might make Asia-MAD flights more feasible due to lower fuel costs.

Certainly, and it would likely be the right-sized aircraft for some thinner routes like say MAD-BOM or MAD-HKG.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 9):
Air Europa and another Spanish airline (I think it was Air Madrid - now bankrupt) flew to Beijing and Shanghai for a while. That was soon reduced to just Beijing and then cancelled all together. It appears that long-haul flights to South America are more profitable.

Its not just profitability, but also that airlines like UX or the defunct Air Madrid/ Air Comet rely mostly on VFR passengers for their long-haul flights, which is not a big component between Spain and China. IB generally has a more balanced passenger mix.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7521 times:

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 10):
But secondly, the fast-growing business market between Latin America and Asia will demand a one-stop connection - not the two that would be required if all BA-IB flights to Asia are out of LHR. So I think PVG and NRT (aided by a hopefully resurgent JL) are not that far on the horizon from MAD.

I thought about that, but wouldn't oneworld passengers be better off if they fly, say, LA or AA from South America to the U.S. and then AA, CX or JL from the U.S. to Asia? There are many LatAm-East Asia city pairs that can be served this way with one-stop with a shorter travel time than via Europe.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7493 times:

Doesn't Air China fly to MAD? I know the once did.

Rgs,
JJ8080



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7494 times:

There was another thread on the same subject just a month ago.
Why Don't TP And IB Fly To Asia? (by cadamosto Jul 8 2010 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineseemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 971 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7362 times:

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 12):
Doesn't Air China fly to MAD? I know the once did.

They still do, their GRU service is operated via MAD.



seemyseems
User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

Quoting seemyseems (Reply 14):

Indeed, i was quite sure that the stop on the GRU services was in MAD.



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineDirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

>Rumors in another thread, TP asking for permission to fly to China, only obviate the lack of service from Madrid to Asia.

TP is a 100% state owned airline: they don't need to post a profit and no one really cares about their performance. Iberia is a private airline.


User currently offlinecadamosto From Portugal, joined Jul 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7130 times:

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 16):
they don't need to post a profit and no one really cares about their performance

This is not accurate. Big efforts were made to turn TP into a profitable airline, and they are succeeding. And the possible opening of the routes to China seems to be in that line of action, IMO.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7024 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

This issue was very recently discussed and a lot of what is being said here, can be found here:

Why Don't TP And IB Fly To Asia? (by cadamosto Jul 8 2010 in Civil Aviation)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7005 times:

IB does codeshare on JL flights AMS-NRT, routing MAD-AMS-NRT using IB flightnumbers.
But JAL pulls out of AMS in late September, so maybe IB will switch to FRA for codesharing in the future, or via CDG.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6783 times:

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 12):
Doesn't Air China fly to MAD? I know the once did.

Rgs,
JJ8080

they still do , flight continues to GRU twice a week with A330


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6302 times:

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 16):
TP is a 100% state owned airline: they don't need to post a profit and no one really cares about their performance. Iberia is a private airline.

The question is: how long is TP gonna remain a state-owned airline?

Portugal has to tighten its belt and privatisations will probably be required.


User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

I don't think IB has much chances on Asia due to their geographical position in Europe. The majors are in place and have dozens of good connections via AMS, CDG, FCO, LHR, MUC, MXP and ZRH to name a few.

As far as oneworld is concerned I guess connections via LHR will be developped and eventually that could lead to route openings in MAD seeing how precious slots are in LHR should some route have enough support from MAD. A oneworld family partnership with AY should do miracles but that doesn't seem to be very explored by IB. CX and JL must be options to seek but if that didn't happen by now there must be reasons that are either that it wouldn't work or that the people in charge are incompetant. I would tend to vote for the first option but seeing how little cooperation there seems to be in terms of route planning and sharing there is in oneworld, I wonder.

If anything, TP has more chances to succeed at taping the Brazil-China/India market than even IB does.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 22):
. A oneworld family partnership with AY should do miracles but that doesn't seem to be very explored by IB. CX and JL must be options to seek but if that didn't happen by now
Quoting airbuseric (Reply 19):
IB does codeshare on JL flights AMS-NRT, routing MAD-AMS-NRT using IB flightnumbers.

IB also codeshare with CX on AMS-HKG.

They do make use of their oneworld partners here.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):
I thought about that, but wouldn't oneworld passengers be better off if they fly, say, LA or AA from South America to the U.S. and then AA, CX or JL from the U.S. to Asia? There are many LatAm-East Asia city pairs that can be served this way with one-stop with a shorter travel time than via Europe.

Yes, flying to Asia via the U.S. is the most popular routing for South American pax. LAN currently code-shares on CX's HKG-JFK-HKG and HKG-LAX-HKG flights. Also, LAN code-shares on CX's HKG-AKL-HKG services and provides one-stop connections for many South American passengers via AKL and SYD. CX recently stated, "Flight schedules and Auckland’s geographic location means that the fastest routing between Hong Kong and Santiago will be via Auckland. The fact that New Zealand does not require transit passengers from many countries to obtain visas will also make travelling via Auckland an attractive proposition between South America and Hong Kong and Asia. Many passengers already connect between South America and Hong Kong, using the service of Cathay Pacific, and Cathay Pacific expects the number of passengers to increase significantly."
http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...b338588210VgnVCM62000007d21c39____


25 Post contains links and images A342 : I wonder how many connecting passengers AY has that go from MAD via HEL to Asia? Notice how perfectly HEL is positioned when going from MAD to Northea
26 United787 : Same reason AA doesn't fly to Asia from MIA, geography!
27 ohsopc : nop that's not true. you can fly TG TPE-BKK-MAD with good (1-2 hours) connection times.
28 icna05e : Does IB fly to HEL or AY to MAD yet? Of course HEL is the most natural gateway to NE Asia from Europe on a oneworld point of view. plus, for a passeng
29 offloaded : I would've thought UNpoplular. People from Argentina, Brazil and Chile need a visa to go via the US. TWOV was suspended years ago.
30 Post contains images N9801F : The combination of a comparatively small local market and (as mentioned above by LAXintl and others) a limited catchment area for connections (due to
31 A388 : I continuously read here in the forum how people hate to transit in the U.S. due to visa requirements so I don't know how popular flying to Asia via
32 SCL767 : Contrary to popular belief, more and more international pax transit between South America and the Far-East via the U.S. For example, a pax traveling
33 A388 : First of all, LIM is not the best example in my opinion due to the limited amount of choices passengers have to travel from LIM to Asia (only LAN, DL
34 cadamosto : That's true, but it results from time zone changes; when the same pax returns, the effect will be reversed - coming through Europe will arrive one da
35 LAXintl : Well I suppose one can look at the total numbers of US C-1 transit visa issued which require immediate transit through the US, and do not allow stopo
36 A388 : That can definately be a factor. As I said, DL also offers a similar connection with only 4 hours difference, not much difference when looking at the
37 LAXintl : I'm not sure what you mean. I only listed the data since 2005 as that is all I could find (TWOV was eliminated in 2003). If you notice 2005-2008 tran
38 SCL767 : In the case of SCL, besides IB, AF is the only other European carrier that operates to Europe. Also, the flying time between SCL and AKL is actually
39 hardiwv : GRU is extremely well connected to Asia, no shortage of connections. GRU is the only airport in Latin America to actually receive flights from Asia:
40 A388 : AF also offers a connection to NRT. Departing SCL at 15:45, arriving in CDG at 11:20, after just 2 hours and 10 minutes in CDG you depart for NRT at
41 SCL767 : Connections between South America and Asia are also available via both AKL and SYD. LA will operate SCL-AKL-SYD-AKL-SCL daily this November. Plus, AR
42 hardiwv : AKL is very poorly connected to Asia comparing with other hubs, for example, there is a single flight to PEK which entails a waiting time of +10h for
43 A388 : And as hardiwv said, GRU offers the best connections to Asia through Asian and Middle Eastern airlines themselves, no hazzle of changing airlines alo
44 hardiwv : I confirm a lot of passengers are now flying Asia/Middle East via GRU. In my last flight SCL-GRU I saw a group of 10 pax connecting with EK to China.
45 A342 : IB doesn't fly to HEL themselves, however, AY serves both MAD and BCN. I suspect IB codeshares those flights.
46 SCL767 : Not really since there are more options via the U.S. and Europe from other South American cities as well. Most of the Asian and Middle Eastern airlin
47 A388 : Middle Eastern airlines are very different. Let's take EK. EK has said that their attention is on South America as well and we all know EK. They are
48 hardiwv : You are correct, and in fact even LX has decided to terminate its flights in GRU not offering the tag-on to SCL. Airlines are moving to codehare by w
49 A388 : Thanks for that. QR does fly that routing. Even so with all the aircraft these airlines have on order they will do everything to fill these aircraft.
50 SCL767 : Currently QR operates DOH-GRU-EZE-GRU-DOH; so it is a tag-on flight. Also, some South American carriers will also fly their own metal to Asia as well
51 A388 : Of course they can and will but how many routes can be flown nonstop from South America to Asia with the new ultra longhaul aircraft (787 & A350X
52 SCL767 : The same goes for BA/IB, AF/KL, LH/LX, etc. Also, EK does not have what many other airlines offer: vast domestic network systems.[Edited 2010-08-11 1
53 Viscount724 : There is much more AKL-Asia service than that. NZ: AKL-NRT/HKG/PVG CX: AKL-HKG TG: AKL-BKK KE: AKL-ICN[Edited 2010-08-11 14:22:35]
54 hardiwv : Not to mention they have a perfect and strategic hub at crossroads between east and west which maximises travel time. They will continue growing and
55 SCL767 : CX operates HKG-AKL-HKG 10x weekly.
56 hardiwv : Too few connections, compare the number of connections via other hubs such as IST, DXB, CDG, FRA, JFK, or even SYD with QF, etc. Plus many AKL destin
57 Viscount724 : On extreme longhaul routes like South America-Asia, I expect many passengers break the journey with an overnight stop at the connecting point.
58 A388 : BA and KL also don't rely on their domestic networks as it is too small. Besides this, all the airlines you mention don't have what EK has, the perfe
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