I haven't been through it all yet, but one thing that stood out is that it looks like the RJ area at the end of T2 will be replaced with regular gates, and an RJ gate area will be added to the end of T4B. So in the end, T4B will be expanded to include 9 new international gates and 11 RJ gates for a total of 20 new gates.
Josh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 325 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25777 times:
Thanks for posting this! Lots of fun details! It appears the additional gate count of 9 referrred to international gates only and did not include the RJ gates added in T4. Bravo...it can't get built fast enough.
timf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 954 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25717 times:
It's good to see a rendering of a fully built-out Terminal 4 that resembles some of the ideas presented in the other thread. However, there is no mention of the new regional jet gates in Concourse B or any of the new gates in Concourse A in the project description, which makes me wonder if this rendering is just some sort of ultimate build-out plan and not the projects associated with Phase One. All they keep mentioning is the 9 new international gates, connector, and lobby improvements.
Atlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25704 times:
Looks like a good plan and pictures look good. Sad that worldport couldnt be incorpoated in to the connector some how but it I guess had to go . But that empty space can at the very least make space for future terminal expansion. All in all good show Delta!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25626 times:
Interesting that in the rendering of the completed build out that both A and B are built out. I wonder if the Port Authority has another announcement to make...and that would explain where some of the "displaced" airlines are going.
panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4583 posts, RR: 26 Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25548 times:
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 4): But that empty space can at the very least make space for future terminal expansion
I don't think you will ever see a big terminal expansion being built in the T3 space for the simple reason that Delta does not want to get caught up in its current predicament of constricted ramp and taxi space between terminals again. The wide open space should allow for dual taxiways, which means faster access to gates. Today, one of the biggest issues is that one airplane pushing back from the gate and waiting for clearance to taxi can delay multiple incoming aircraft trying to reach their gates. This is especially true of the ramp area between T2 and T3.
From the renderings, it looks like the gate areas will get a nice re-do, but the most significant thing may be the expansion of the TSA security areas. Today's TSA area is cramped and extremely customer-unfriendly, at least on the T4 West side. The SkyClub also looks like it will be a nice two-level facility, though I do hope they manage to keep it airside.
RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25443 times:
Quoting OA412 (Thread starter): and an RJ gate area will be added to the end of T4B. So in the end, T4B will be expanded to include 9 new international gates and 11 RJ gates for a total of 20 new gates.
Thats the part that surprised me the most too, I dont think that was clear in the PANYNJ preview last week.
With a total of 30 gates at T4B, they will barely need T2... and I think this plan makes an eventual Phase II pretty clear, should be interesting to see how that will look, but with 250 slots, T4B should be able to handle 90% of that.
Im starting to wonder if Phase II will be a replacement of T2 that will be for all fo the airlines in T4A, then Delta can just take over T4A
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 50 Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 25440 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 8): I can tell where Terminal 4 is, but which is A and which is B?
A would be the shorter finger, which currently has 6 gates only and going by that plan will see 10 further gates for a total of 16. In other words, ample space for the "40 other carriers that would have to be kicked out of Terminal" (according to some), and Delta (and probably a few Skyteam carriers) will have B, the longer finger all to themselves.
Now, aside from the Delta terminal itself, am I the only irritated by the new access roadway going OVER the taxiways between T1 and T8?
Evan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 25096 times:
Will they continue to park planes at the end of T2 and the ramp where T3 used to be? Or is that reserved for other airlines? Would they even need that ramp space?
In the distant future after this is all done I could see T2 being knocked down for a T4-like replica, just a little smaller. Two finger terminals T2 and T3. Hopefully by then though the ATC issues will be fixed and another runway or two will have been added!
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
LDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 747 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 25029 times:
Quoting OA412 (Thread starter): I haven't been through it all yet, but one thing that stood out is that it looks like the RJ area at the end of T2 will be replaced with regular gates, and an RJ gate area will be added to the end of T4B. So in the end, T4B will be expanded to include 9 new international gates and 11 RJ gates for a total of 20 new gates.
Delta does it again. Apparently, some of the people who write its route applications have transferred to the airport operations department. LOL.
It is only 9 gates for now. The 11 RJ gates are part of a future plan (Phase 2).
Apparently, Phase 2 also includes expanding Concourse A. Delta currently has no funding for Phase 2, but it has indicated to the Port that they might get started on Phase 2 in 2017 to 2020.
As to what they are doing or planning to do in the future, it looks like they will end up with two very long concourses at T4. There are going to be some very long walks, especially if you have an RJ flight to catch.
On Concourse B, it looks like the addition will be no wider than the existing part of that concourse. That's not good. If I remember correctly, it is a very narrow concourse, especially with gates on both sides. On the future Concourse A, the plans call for a wider addition than the existing part. Or, so it seems from the drawing.
As to the connector between 2 and 4. it seems rather basic. At least, Delta could have splurged on floor to ceiling windows. Maybe, they didn't want to spend that kind of money because it is only a temporary structure.
In any case, when one strips away all the stuff that won't get built until 2020, there's not much here. And, even if you add the 2020 stuff back, you end up with a rather odd layout for a terminal, with no consistency in scale. In my mind, I find myself wanting to tear down the two long piers and replace them with at least one midfield concourse.
foxbravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2801 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 25019 times:
Quoting panamair (Reply 7): From the renderings, it looks like the gate areas will get a nice re-do, but the most significant thing may be the expansion of the TSA security areas. Today's TSA area is cramped and extremely customer-unfriendly, at least on the T4 West side.
I agree. It isn't clear to me where they're going to put that new security area though. Are they tearing out the whole food court and duty-free shopping area on the lower level? Or is it upstairs just behind the check-in area? Either way, looks like a huge improvement.
Quoting panamair (Reply 7): The SkyClub also looks like it will be a nice two-level facility, though I do hope they manage to keep it airside.
Yes, keeping it airside will be key. My guess from looking at the renderings is that it will be upstairs in the raised square area about halfway down the concourse (more or less where the existing concourse ends). If so, the views will be great.
LDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 747 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 24848 times:
Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 20): So will the Port Authority announce the second part that Terminal A will be extended as well too to make room for all the other airlines?
See Delta's own press release:
"Expansion Project Highlights
Construction is scheduled to begin in September 2010, with anticipated completion of phase one and relocation of Delta's Terminal 3 operations to Terminal 4 in May 2013. Delta's JFK terminal project includes the expansion of Concourse B at Terminal 4, with nine new international gates; the construction of a passenger connector between Terminal 2 and Terminal 4; expanded areas for baggage claim, Customs and Border Protection; and the demolition of Terminal 3 in May 2015. The Terminal 3 site will then be used for aircraft parking." Source: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1095
peanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1307 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 24732 times:
Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 5): Where will the many airlines that operate from T4 today move to?
Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 20): So will the Port Authority announce the second part that Terminal A will be extended as well too to make room for all the other airlines?
Why do "concerns" over "other airlines" continue to surface on these threads? If you read the plans, we are mostly talking about "expansion". That would be the key word: expansion.
Also, over time, some of these "other airlines" will find new homes as alliances and partnerships form and need to find a home together, in other terminals for instance.
It is clear that JFK will never be finished. It continues to be a work in progress, always has been, always will be. JFK is as "fluid" of an airport as they come. People seeking "final" solutions at JFK live in a dream.
What DL has done for this phase is smart and very responsible. Nothing lavish. This will work for them, very well.
Schiphol Group (which owns 4), is also very pleased about these plans.
Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
25 ATLflyer: I don't see anything in this press release about Terminal 4, Concourse A....
26 Vasu: Fantastic to see - When I flew through JFK with DL in April, the whole system just seemed overcrowded, tatty and messy!
27 OA412: That is my impression as well. If correct, it looks like it's going to be a huge SkyClub.
28 ontime: Because as ATLflyer notes just above, there have been no announcements about expanding Concourse A at T4, and with the demolition of T3, it appears t
29 TOMMY767: Me too. I was shocked to not see it on the future aerial map. Very Sad but overall a very sensible plan.
30 cokepopper: I'm surprised no mention of the combination of all sky team members. Earlier statments made it seem that it was part of the plan.
31 peanuts: Why would there be? T4A is not and will not be part of DL. (considering it was a DL press release you quoted...). It does not have to be explained at
32 ontime: The vagueness of your answer is confusing... If neither the expansion of Concourse 4A nor the extra RJ gates on the end of 4B are in the current plan
33 LDVAviation: Add 3 gates in Concourse B, for a total of 9.
34 kl911: Is this the first terminal owned by a company ( AMS airport ) instead of an airline in the US? I've always thought that airlines should concentrate on
35 FlyASAGuy2005: Anyone noticed the nice A380 sitting there Exactly. 30 years from now, what was once considered "state of the art" will be out dates and the cycle wi
36 MadDogJT8D: A few observations to note about these plans, please clarify if someone has any knowledge: 1) It appears that Taxiway Foxtrot (the one leading to the
37 B6JFKH81: This is quite interesting, well to me at least. 6 years ago when I started working at JFK there were 9 terminals. When this is done, we'll be down to
38 TymnBalewne: It would be lovely (to me, anyway) if just the original "rotunda" of the PanAm terminal could be saved and used as DL's central ticketing point for T2
39 planetime: Will DL also build additional area to the check in area in the front of T4? I see addition of gates but going by the picture it seems like the front c
40 jetlanta: LDV, there is a lot more here than meets the eye, literally. The cost of adding seamless additions for ticketing, baggage claim and CBP to an existin
41 TOLtommy: In reality, probably not longer than from one end to the other of A concourse in either ATL or DTW. But unlike ATL, it will have moving sidewalks.
42 Flighty: Why doesn't DL just demolish all all gates that other airlines use, they could make more money due to other airlines' "inability to compete with our D
43 bonusonus: I also think that the plan for the RJ terminal at the end of concourse B is poorly thought-out. In general, regional route travelers will be arriving
44 RL757PVD: Exactly, the size of DL's terminal should be consistent with their existing and anticipated slot holdings. I would like to see that RJ concourse incl
45 timf: Gate A6 is currently configured for A380s, so the rendering is accurate.
46 BN747: So what isn't clear...but may be a bit obvious, will Delta have exclusive use of Concourse B at T4 (along with the intl carriers it currently host at
47 TOMMY767: I agree. I don't understand why they keep the ugly T-2 around and not keep the worldport and expand another sub concourse off of that. The finger to
48 DLMD90: Slightly off topic, but in reference to Delta announcements, I was speaking with a FA last week, who said, they will be announcing a revamp of domesti
49 jetlanta: Y'all, they have literally been studying how to do this in an efficient, cost-effective manner for 15 years. I've personally seen plans in dozens of
50 DAL767400ER: Simple, because most RJ flights into JFK are timed to connect with the international flights anyway. There are far more people doing e.g. BUF-JFK-Eur
51 jetlanta: T3 is too small for it's use and is falling apart. T2 isn't, and especially won't be after it is refurbished. And it isn't likely to last beyond 2020
52 bobnwa: If that is a serious question, my response is that the airport authority would not let them .
53 BN747: You're right, T4 now is awesome..but when it takes on that 1960 airport concourse look...it won't be all that pleasant when completed and you have to
54 jetlanta: An alternative arrangement that works in the real world would have required the demolition of the existing T4 gates. It was looked at, as were DOZENS
55 TOMMY767: T2 was opened in 1962 that is only 2-3 years younger than the Worldport?
56 deltal1011man: 16 gates and Delta is getting 16 gates in T4. Delta is the only airline in T3 and Delta will get all of T4B save 2 aircraft. The two gate closest to
57 jetlanta: The year is irrelevant. The configuration of T3 is the biggest problem. T2 is basically a big box with a lot of internal flexibility. The are vastly
58 NewYorkCityBoi: -I find it hard to believe that they will not expand the check-in area of Terminal 4 at all?? Is the check-in area currently underused?? I am sure Del
59 BN747: True JFK is primarily O&D... BUT Delta isn't..esp. not T3 nor it's replacement. It is a huge fusion of domestic connecting with intl ops. Thus th
60 jetlanta: Did you read the press release? Or any of this thread? They ARE expanding the Check-In area, along with Baggage Claim, Security, Baggage Make-Up &
61 TOMMY767: Are they going to do anything with it? It's a pretty bleak terminal as of now.
62 OA412: I'm wondering what some of you were expecting. We had already heard bits and pieces of what would happen and it appeared to be something along these l
63 ontime: I agree with much of what you wrote, but I can't understand why you (and another poster) are upset that folks are curious about what will happen with
64 jfk777: One solution in a few years is to let Delta takeover all of terminal 4 and tear down terminal 2. Then build a new terminal for the airline which today
65 OA412: Perhaps you misunderstood what I was getting at. I'm certainly not upset that the issue of the other airlines is being brought up. Obviously, some ar
66 beeweel15: They could have made the routunda part of that long walkway between T4 and T2. What I am upset about is that T2 always gets away from the chopping bl
67 ontime: Does Delta's press release say they are expanding the checkin area? I am not questioning this, I just couldn't find it. There are pictures of the che
68 ATLflyer: I'm guessing this will happen: Phase II will be buildout of additional gates for Terminal 4, Concourse A as well as RJ gates at end of Concourse B. Up
69 OA412: While it will never be mistaken for an architectural masterpiece, it's basic design means that it's much more efficient than is T3. Overall, the term
70 beeweel15: Based on the picture for the absolute most 4 hardstands will be lost but based on that pic also they can easily repositioned
71 TOMMY767: I don't see how T2 is anymore effective than the T3 rotunda. I'm actually surprised how many gates DL crams into the rotunda area. Surely T2 has more
72 OA412: Because it does give DL more gates to work with, and getting rid of all of T3 opens up a great deal of space that they can use for parking. Perhaps,