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Delta Announces Details Of JFK Improvements  
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5249 posts, RR: 25
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29772 times:

Here is the official DL press release regarding the JFK upgrades:
http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1095

I haven't been through it all yet, but one thing that stood out is that it looks like the RJ area at the end of T2 will be replaced with regular gates, and an RJ gate area will be added to the end of T4B. So in the end, T4B will be expanded to include 9 new international gates and 11 RJ gates for a total of 20 new gates.

[Edited 2010-08-11 07:48:07]

[Edited 2010-08-11 08:15:09]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
276 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29724 times:

Thanks for posting this! Lots of fun details! It appears the additional gate count of 9 referrred to international gates only and did not include the RJ gates added in T4. Bravo...it can't get built fast enough.

User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5089 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29662 times:

Hopefully, it will also "enhance" the customer service professionals who DL employs at JFK.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29664 times:
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It's good to see a rendering of a fully built-out Terminal 4 that resembles some of the ideas presented in the other thread. However, there is no mention of the new regional jet gates in Concourse B or any of the new gates in Concourse A in the project description, which makes me wonder if this rendering is just some sort of ultimate build-out plan and not the projects associated with Phase One. All they keep mentioning is the 9 new international gates, connector, and lobby improvements.

User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29651 times:

Looks like a good plan and pictures look good. Sad that worldport couldnt be incorpoated in to the connector some how but it I guess had to go  . But that empty space can at the very least make space for future terminal expansion. All in all good show Delta!


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29571 times:

Where will the many airlines that operate from T4 today move to?

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5939 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29573 times:

Interesting that in the rendering of the completed build out that both A and B are built out. I wonder if the Port Authority has another announcement to make...and that would explain where some of the "displaced" airlines are going.


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 29495 times:
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Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 4):
But that empty space can at the very least make space for future terminal expansion

I don't think you will ever see a big terminal expansion being built in the T3 space for the simple reason that Delta does not want to get caught up in its current predicament of constricted ramp and taxi space between terminals again. The wide open space should allow for dual taxiways, which means faster access to gates. Today, one of the biggest issues is that one airplane pushing back from the gate and waiting for clearance to taxi can delay multiple incoming aircraft trying to reach their gates. This is especially true of the ramp area between T2 and T3.

From the renderings, it looks like the gate areas will get a nice re-do, but the most significant thing may be the expansion of the TSA security areas. Today's TSA area is cramped and extremely customer-unfriendly, at least on the T4 West side. The SkyClub also looks like it will be a nice two-level facility, though I do hope they manage to keep it airside.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10398 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29549 times:

Ok.....I'm not that altogether familiar with JFK's layout, but here's an artist's rendering, of, I guess, the completed project.
I can tell where Terminal 4 is, but which is A and which is B?



http://news.delta.com/file.php/948/JFK-exterior-future.jpg



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29414 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
I can tell where Terminal 4 is, but which is A and which is B?

B is the longer one with the RJ gates at the end.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29412 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
but which is A and which is B?

The longer extension is B (with what looks like RJ gates at the end).


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29390 times:

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
and an RJ gate area will be added to the end of T4B. So in the end, T4B will be expanded to include 9 new international gates and 11 RJ gates for a total of 20 new gates.

Thats the part that surprised me the most too, I dont think that was clear in the PANYNJ preview last week.

With a total of 30 gates at T4B, they will barely need T2... and I think this plan makes an eventual Phase II pretty clear, should be interesting to see how that will look, but with 250 slots, T4B should be able to handle 90% of that.

Im starting to wonder if Phase II will be a replacement of T2 that will be for all fo the airlines in T4A, then Delta can just take over T4A



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29387 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
I can tell where Terminal 4 is, but which is A and which is B?

A would be the shorter finger, which currently has 6 gates only and going by that plan will see 10 further gates for a total of 16. In other words, ample space for the "40 other carriers that would have to be kicked out of Terminal" (according to some), and Delta (and probably a few Skyteam carriers) will have B, the longer finger all to themselves.

Now, aside from the Delta terminal itself, am I the only irritated by the new access roadway going OVER the taxiways between T1 and T8?


User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 948 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29334 times:

when is the construction due to start? I need to get out to JFK and take some "farewell" photos of the WorldPort.


Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29240 times:
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Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 13):
when is the construction due to start?

September 2010 on the T4 extension part.

Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 13):
I need to get out to JFK and take some "farewell" photos of the WorldPort.

You'll have at least two more years for that! They won't move out of T3 until the T4 extension is complete (May 2013).


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10398 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29143 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 9):
B is the longer one with the RJ gates at the end.
Quoting panamair (Reply 10):
The longer extension is B (with what looks like RJ gates at the end).

Thanks....that kind of threw me, because logic would dictate that the first finger would be A, the second would be B, going in alphabetical order, kind of like how the concourses are set up at ORD.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinehypercott From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29088 times:

As much as I hate going through T3 --- I am going to miss it. It's a landmark building.

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29043 times:

Will they continue to park planes at the end of T2 and the ramp where T3 used to be? Or is that reserved for other airlines? Would they even need that ramp space?

In the distant future after this is all done I could see T2 being knocked down for a T4-like replica, just a little smaller. Two finger terminals T2 and T3. Hopefully by then though the ATC issues will be fixed and another runway or two will have been added!



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28976 times:

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
I haven't been through it all yet, but one thing that stood out is that it looks like the RJ area at the end of T2 will be replaced with regular gates, and an RJ gate area will be added to the end of T4B. So in the end, T4B will be expanded to include 9 new international gates and 11 RJ gates for a total of 20 new gates.

Delta does it again. Apparently, some of the people who write its route applications have transferred to the airport operations department. LOL.

It is only 9 gates for now. The 11 RJ gates are part of a future plan (Phase 2).

Apparently, Phase 2 also includes expanding Concourse A. Delta currently has no funding for Phase 2, but it has indicated to the Port that they might get started on Phase 2 in 2017 to 2020.

As to what they are doing or planning to do in the future, it looks like they will end up with two very long concourses at T4. There are going to be some very long walks, especially if you have an RJ flight to catch.

On Concourse B, it looks like the addition will be no wider than the existing part of that concourse. That's not good. If I remember correctly, it is a very narrow concourse, especially with gates on both sides. On the future Concourse A, the plans call for a wider addition than the existing part. Or, so it seems from the drawing.

As to the connector between 2 and 4. it seems rather basic. At least, Delta could have splurged on floor to ceiling windows. Maybe, they didn't want to spend that kind of money because it is only a temporary structure.

In any case, when one strips away all the stuff that won't get built until 2020, there's not much here. And, even if you add the 2020 stuff back, you end up with a rather odd layout for a terminal, with no consistency in scale. In my mind, I find myself wanting to tear down the two long piers and replace them with at least one midfield concourse.

[Edited 2010-08-11 09:02:51]

User currently offlinefoxbravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2996 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28966 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 7):
From the renderings, it looks like the gate areas will get a nice re-do, but the most significant thing may be the expansion of the TSA security areas. Today's TSA area is cramped and extremely customer-unfriendly, at least on the T4 West side.

I agree. It isn't clear to me where they're going to put that new security area though. Are they tearing out the whole food court and duty-free shopping area on the lower level? Or is it upstairs just behind the check-in area? Either way, looks like a huge improvement.

Quoting panamair (Reply 7):
The SkyClub also looks like it will be a nice two-level facility, though I do hope they manage to keep it airside.

Yes, keeping it airside will be key. My guess from looking at the renderings is that it will be upstairs in the raised square area about halfway down the concourse (more or less where the existing concourse ends). If so, the views will be great.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineATLflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 736 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28856 times:

So will the Port Authority announce the second part that Terminal A will be extended as well too to make room for all the other airlines?

User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28795 times:

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 20):
So will the Port Authority announce the second part that Terminal A will be extended as well too to make room for all the other airlines?

Why?

See Delta's own press release:

"Expansion Project Highlights

Construction is scheduled to begin in September 2010, with anticipated completion of phase one and relocation of Delta's Terminal 3 operations to Terminal 4 in May 2013. Delta's JFK terminal project includes the expansion of Concourse B at Terminal 4, with nine new international gates; the construction of a passenger connector between Terminal 2 and Terminal 4; expanded areas for baggage claim, Customs and Border Protection; and the demolition of Terminal 3 in May 2015. The Terminal 3 site will then be used for aircraft parking." Source: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1095


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8961 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28708 times:

I'm not a fan of these loooooong terminals, but it does look much better. Best of luck to Delta and here's hoping there won't be any delays in the construction.


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemysterzip From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28693 times:

It's going to be a long walk!

User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28679 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 5):
Where will the many airlines that operate from T4 today move to?
Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 20):
So will the Port Authority announce the second part that Terminal A will be extended as well too to make room for all the other airlines?

Why do "concerns" over "other airlines" continue to surface on these threads? If you read the plans, we are mostly talking about "expansion". That would be the key word: expansion.
Also, over time, some of these "other airlines" will find new homes as alliances and partnerships form and need to find a home together, in other terminals for instance.

It is clear that JFK will never be finished. It continues to be a work in progress, always has been, always will be. JFK is as "fluid" of an airport as they come. People seeking "final" solutions at JFK live in a dream.

What DL has done for this phase is smart and very responsible. Nothing lavish. This will work for them, very well.

Schiphol Group (which owns 4), is also very pleased about these plans.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
25 ATLflyer : I don't see anything in this press release about Terminal 4, Concourse A....
26 Vasu : Fantastic to see - When I flew through JFK with DL in April, the whole system just seemed overcrowded, tatty and messy!
27 OA412 : That is my impression as well. If correct, it looks like it's going to be a huge SkyClub.
28 ontime : Because as ATLflyer notes just above, there have been no announcements about expanding Concourse A at T4, and with the demolition of T3, it appears t
29 TOMMY767 : Me too. I was shocked to not see it on the future aerial map. Very Sad but overall a very sensible plan.
30 cokepopper : I'm surprised no mention of the combination of all sky team members. Earlier statments made it seem that it was part of the plan.
31 peanuts : Why would there be? T4A is not and will not be part of DL. (considering it was a DL press release you quoted...). It does not have to be explained at
32 ontime : The vagueness of your answer is confusing... If neither the expansion of Concourse 4A nor the extra RJ gates on the end of 4B are in the current plan
33 LDVAviation : Add 3 gates in Concourse B, for a total of 9.
34 kl911 : Is this the first terminal owned by a company ( AMS airport ) instead of an airline in the US? I've always thought that airlines should concentrate on
35 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Anyone noticed the nice A380 sitting there Exactly. 30 years from now, what was once considered "state of the art" will be out dates and the cycle wi
36 MadDogJT8D : A few observations to note about these plans, please clarify if someone has any knowledge: 1) It appears that Taxiway Foxtrot (the one leading to the
37 B6JFKH81 : This is quite interesting, well to me at least. 6 years ago when I started working at JFK there were 9 terminals. When this is done, we'll be down to
38 TymnBalewne : It would be lovely (to me, anyway) if just the original "rotunda" of the PanAm terminal could be saved and used as DL's central ticketing point for T2
39 planetime : Will DL also build additional area to the check in area in the front of T4? I see addition of gates but going by the picture it seems like the front c
40 jetlanta : LDV, there is a lot more here than meets the eye, literally. The cost of adding seamless additions for ticketing, baggage claim and CBP to an existin
41 TOLtommy : In reality, probably not longer than from one end to the other of A concourse in either ATL or DTW. But unlike ATL, it will have moving sidewalks.
42 Flighty : Why doesn't DL just demolish all all gates that other airlines use, they could make more money due to other airlines' "inability to compete with our D
43 bonusonus : I also think that the plan for the RJ terminal at the end of concourse B is poorly thought-out. In general, regional route travelers will be arriving
44 RL757PVD : Exactly, the size of DL's terminal should be consistent with their existing and anticipated slot holdings. I would like to see that RJ concourse incl
45 timf : Gate A6 is currently configured for A380s, so the rendering is accurate.
46 BN747 : So what isn't clear...but may be a bit obvious, will Delta have exclusive use of Concourse B at T4 (along with the intl carriers it currently host at
47 TOMMY767 : I agree. I don't understand why they keep the ugly T-2 around and not keep the worldport and expand another sub concourse off of that. The finger to
48 DLMD90 : Slightly off topic, but in reference to Delta announcements, I was speaking with a FA last week, who said, they will be announcing a revamp of domesti
49 jetlanta : Y'all, they have literally been studying how to do this in an efficient, cost-effective manner for 15 years. I've personally seen plans in dozens of
50 DAL767400ER : Simple, because most RJ flights into JFK are timed to connect with the international flights anyway. There are far more people doing e.g. BUF-JFK-Eur
51 jetlanta : T3 is too small for it's use and is falling apart. T2 isn't, and especially won't be after it is refurbished. And it isn't likely to last beyond 2020
52 bobnwa : If that is a serious question, my response is that the airport authority would not let them .
53 BN747 : You're right, T4 now is awesome..but when it takes on that 1960 airport concourse look...it won't be all that pleasant when completed and you have to
54 jetlanta : An alternative arrangement that works in the real world would have required the demolition of the existing T4 gates. It was looked at, as were DOZENS
55 TOMMY767 : T2 was opened in 1962 that is only 2-3 years younger than the Worldport?
56 deltal1011man : 16 gates and Delta is getting 16 gates in T4. Delta is the only airline in T3 and Delta will get all of T4B save 2 aircraft. The two gate closest to
57 jetlanta : The year is irrelevant. The configuration of T3 is the biggest problem. T2 is basically a big box with a lot of internal flexibility. The are vastly
58 NewYorkCityBoi : -I find it hard to believe that they will not expand the check-in area of Terminal 4 at all?? Is the check-in area currently underused?? I am sure Del
59 BN747 : True JFK is primarily O&D... BUT Delta isn't..esp. not T3 nor it's replacement. It is a huge fusion of domestic connecting with intl ops. Thus th
60 Post contains images jetlanta : Did you read the press release? Or any of this thread? They ARE expanding the Check-In area, along with Baggage Claim, Security, Baggage Make-Up &
61 TOMMY767 : Are they going to do anything with it? It's a pretty bleak terminal as of now.
62 OA412 : I'm wondering what some of you were expecting. We had already heard bits and pieces of what would happen and it appeared to be something along these l
63 ontime : I agree with much of what you wrote, but I can't understand why you (and another poster) are upset that folks are curious about what will happen with
64 jfk777 : One solution in a few years is to let Delta takeover all of terminal 4 and tear down terminal 2. Then build a new terminal for the airline which today
65 OA412 : Perhaps you misunderstood what I was getting at. I'm certainly not upset that the issue of the other airlines is being brought up. Obviously, some ar
66 Post contains links and images beeweel15 : They could have made the routunda part of that long walkway between T4 and T2. What I am upset about is that T2 always gets away from the chopping bl
67 ontime : Does Delta's press release say they are expanding the checkin area? I am not questioning this, I just couldn't find it. There are pictures of the che
68 ATLflyer : I'm guessing this will happen: Phase II will be buildout of additional gates for Terminal 4, Concourse A as well as RJ gates at end of Concourse B. Up
69 OA412 : While it will never be mistaken for an architectural masterpiece, it's basic design means that it's much more efficient than is T3. Overall, the term
70 beeweel15 : Based on the picture for the absolute most 4 hardstands will be lost but based on that pic also they can easily repositioned
71 TOMMY767 : I don't see how T2 is anymore effective than the T3 rotunda. I'm actually surprised how many gates DL crams into the rotunda area. Surely T2 has more
72 OA412 : Because it does give DL more gates to work with, and getting rid of all of T3 opens up a great deal of space that they can use for parking. Perhaps,
73 Post contains images STT757 : Looks great
74 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : I'm pretty sure DL/ PA decided to do away with T3 and not T2 for very good reasons. I'm pretty sure one of them was not to piss off aviation enthusias
75 BN747 : A shoebox would accomplish that mission...no one is arguing that point. But seriously now.... Take a Google Earth view of that particular area of the
76 LDVAviation : What I meant by that is this: Delta's management (in all departments) has a habit of spinning things to make them look better than they are. This is
77 b707forever : OK, first reaction - MAJOR DISAPPOINTMENT. In a recent trip report I begged for DL to do something with T2 & T3. This plan says ZERO about T2, a h
78 LDVAviation : With all those things, I am quite sure it will be a very functional facility for the primary use Delta has intended. From a customer's point of view,
79 deltal1011man : they will be in T4B by 2013, with phase I done by 2015. You figure they will have to start work on phase II in 2017ish with T4 built out by 2020. By
80 BN747 : Precisely, and if this is the best $1.2 billion can buy....someone is getting jacked. It looks like a 6 year old A.net member drew this up. I see no
81 Post contains images deltal1011man : Who gives a shit what it looks like? Delta cares about it being the best for its buck, and what that means is the best way to get the max number of g
82 OA412 : Everyone seems to be getting hung up on the architectural merits of the building (and by the way, T4 isn't exactly some architectural lightweight), a
83 Post contains images deltal1011man : and its not like T1/T5(the real T5 not the TWA building) T7 T8 are thes best things ever. If it works that what they care about, looks if just extra
84 STT757 : I think that depends a great deal on the economy, specifically Port Authority finances which is heavily dependent on toll revenues which are down. To
85 B6A322 : As much as I hate long walks, I prefer them to getting snow blown in my face in the winter when I'm walking through the "breezeway" to catch an RJ fl
86 deltal1011man : Just like this time around Delta will find the cash, and for the end of the T4B i cant see how that could be over 300M(and i would really bet that it
87 b707forever : I was hoping they were going to tear down T2 and T3 and build something innovative and worthy of JFK. Like TWA did back in the day only modern and fun
88 BN747 : Yep, exactly the kind of one dimensional thinking that landed LAX the Bradley Terminal back in 1984 as a showcase for the Olympics.... And today (pre
89 Post contains images xkorpyoh : i am glad that the future T4B will be more efficient and practical for both the passengers and Delta, but I am still disappointed that they couldn't c
90 jetlanta : Here is the deal.... The airline is heavily indebted. The PANYNJ is heavily indebted. The nation is heavily indebted. The economy sucks. And the proje
91 Post contains images deltal1011man : Ok 1) can i get some of the money of that big money tree you got? 2) if you want to pay for some amazing 3-5B terminal I'm sure we can find a way for
92 Mir : Somehow I don't think that's going to happen. There's nothing wrong with the existing access roads that would require such a reconstruction. Which is
93 MSPNWA : After all this buildup for a new JFK terminal, I look at the drawings and immediately think of Denver Stapleton and old DTW - terminals/airports that
94 FlyASAGuy2005 : Good grief. By the sound of some of you, you would think DL is offering some sort of dungeons and dragons deal. Come on, it's T4. Why was it not so t
95 Post contains images deltal1011man : So you know this how? and your proof is? any airline right now(in the US at least) is going for this.....they don't have 20-30B from there government
96 BN747 : Not even close to the Warren Buffett level of cash to go down that road ... amd if I did, I'd put you on the give away list and give Delta and PANYNJ
97 Mir : And all US airlines are acting like LCCs, so I can understand where DL is coming from. That said, T4 is at a higher standard, and it's a shame to see
98 deltal1011man : LOL dude if you gave me that much cash.....piss on Delta too LMAO sweet. Well here is how i look at it.... Delta can spend 3-4-5B on a terminal OR th
99 gaystudpilot : Underwhelming. Delta will not "win New York." Sadly, Delta continues to be mediocre in strategic execution.[Edited 2010-08-11 23:08:41]
100 Post contains images FL787 : I'm certainly not the biggest DL supporter on this website, but seriously people, let's give DL some credit for trying to improve their facilities in
101 MSPNWA : Considering the position "Phase 2" is in, why wouldn't someone think that? Know what? I know what. It would be helpful if you would be a little more
102 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Where I was driving at. Now, all of a sudden 2 days later is is a mess... Please Save the whining and fanfare for the press. That is what DL has a me
103 deltal1011man : The only thing we know about phase II is they haven't asked for funding.......but they could do that tomorrow..... anyways the idea here is for the p
104 MSPNWA : 5+B isn't impressive compared to their soon-to-be main competitor. UA now has the same amount, and size-wise CO is doing better too (3.5B). And to to
105 icna05e : Is it me or did DL remove the overviews from their website gallery? I could sworn they were right at the top of it yesterday...
106 OA412 : No, it's not you, they're gone.
107 Post contains images Lufthansa411 : Jetblue has a completely different strategy then DL with completely different goals and aims. You cannot compare a single class airline catering to y
108 Post contains images deltal1011man : Which is why there debit went down, and yet the cash went up........mmmhmmmmmm (that or you know something Mr. Anderson doesn't). UAUA is sitting on
109 icna05e : Thanks OA412, I don't feel unsane... So? Conspiracy theory? Did DL read this forum and realise "shoo, we GOT to to something better and please a.net"
110 panamair : As of June 30, Delta had $6.0 billion in unrestricted liquidity. This is projected to be at $6.3 billion at the end of Q3 (Sep 30).
111 deltal1011man : ah ok Pan, thanks for pointing that out. IIRC they are planning to be have more debit paid down at the end of Q3 but i can't remember how much.
112 jetlanta : Have you ever been to T4? It's already one of the best international terminals in the country. The improvements that Delta has included in this plan
113 Revelation : Apparently DL execs do, when thy call the current setup a "third world experience". It seems the turmoil that their customers will be going through o
114 panamair : My issues with the current T4 (that make it inferior to T8) are: 1) No clubs air-side 2) Cramped TSA security facilities 3) Lack of in-line baggage s
115 jetlanta : But their ops aren't going to be spread across two terminals. Think of it as two concourses. T2 will cease being a "terminal" and become a connected
116 jfktpa119 : Merging T9 with T8 worked but now there missing T6 and T3. Will they change the names so theres not a gap? Also picking up International Family who co
117 STT757 : Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of visitors, commuters and business travelers who have to traverse that rat maze that is Pennsylvania station.
118 Post contains links cokepopper : Further insight into future JFK plans: American Airlines is in advanced talks to bring alliance partners British Airways Plc and Iberia Lineas Aereas
119 STT757 : How is T-2 and T-4 under one roof?.. CO's C-3 concourse at EWR's Terminal C is superior, much bigger with more gates. Plus CO's mainline domestic ope
120 jetlanta : I'm very pleased that we are on the same page. What people are missing here is that Delta has fewer than 200 daily slot pairs. From that, they cannot
121 jetlanta : Once they are connected by a same-level connector, they are effectively under one roof. Granted. But bussing is still required for some CO paxs and o
122 Post contains links and images Mir : I hope you're right, but the interior rendering of the screening area shows it right in the middle (note the tower in the background) They're probabl
123 STT757 : Good news, they should include JAL with the move to T-8. Qantas is probably moving to 8 too. T-7 is going to have some room, but the Port Authority i
124 jetlanta : Yeah, I can't honestly tell for sure yet. But I think more than the almighty dollar, the current security culture is what wins out here. There is onl
125 FlyPNS1 : All in all, it's about what I expected DL would do. Nothing fancy, but it gets the job done. My only concern is that if they build the T4B Concourse a
126 jfklganyc : Let's not discuss the airside busing from C to A at EWR. It sucks, but it is what they have. Any day you can move on your own from one gate to another
127 jetlanta : I share that concern. It will be interesting to see what they actually do.
128 Revelation : You must be in marketing... If your goal today is to at best be competitive with where your competitors are at today, you'll be losing out by tomorro
129 Post contains links RL757PVD : Is it an optical illusion because its closer or does the T4B extension look wider than the existing T4B? http://filecache.drivetheweb.com/mr4..._delt
130 RL757PVD : Though an airline can only leap as far as their slot holdings will allow them to....
131 jetlanta : Why? Are AA and CO building newer facilities tomorrow? My friend, the Port has been coordinating ALL of this all along. The endgame is all oneworld i
132 jetlanta : Yeah, it's easy to lose track of that, huh?
133 FlyPNS1 : It doesn't look any wider to me, but I could be wrong. With T3 gone, it's certainly possible to widen T4B, though I don't think that's in the budget
134 RL757PVD : Before I had seen redering with the RJ gate extension I thought the connector would be a great place for the RJ gates, almost like the way the OH hub
135 BN747 : Clearly one where I'm vastly more familiar with shenanigans of big city politics (and the con job they pull on the public) than you are. Good thing y
136 STT757 : It will be two terminals, the T-2/T-3 air train station and garage are not being torn down. They will be connected to T-2. But travelers who use Airt
137 RL757PVD : I'll agree that DL would probably be better off if they had a Terminal like T8, however, T2/3 hasnt stopped DL from becoming the #2 carrier at JFK, a
138 FlyPNS1 : AA has a distinct advantage over DL RIGHT NOW, yet they don't advertise the fact. In the last few years, DL has kicked AA's butt in NYC with a massiv
139 Post contains images mayor : Weren't we talking about JFK?? Oh, is the game over?? Excuse me.......are we talking about building an airport terminal here or the next coming of th
140 cokepopper : Exactly, Look at what Delta has accomplished within the last few years at JFK with the currrent terminals. Imagine what they will accomplish with the
141 jetlanta : Clearly I'm more familiar with the fiscal condition of the entities involved than you are. How so? By adding in-line baggage screening? By expanding
142 jetlanta : T2 is not connected to the Airtrain today. T3 sort of is. Delta is not planning on having dual check-in operations then T4 is done. The T3 parking de
143 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Well thought out response Both OPS will have its good and bad, period. Problem is you can't please everyone. And those of us on A.net don't really ge
144 Post contains images mayor : It seems to me that these plans were drawn up with the least amount of operations disruption, possible. Now, someone else can tell me, but I assume th
145 Revelation : What I'm saying is that T2+bridge+T4 aka Phase I is substantially inferior to what T8 already offers today, in my opinion. And we now have reports th
146 Post contains images beeweel15 : One of the main selling points of T4 was that retail and concession area for passengers and families to be when seeing each other off. And it generat
147 jetlanta : But how can you even HAVE an opinion until the project is finished and open? And how can you be sure it will be "substantially" inferior. The ONLY th
148 LDVAviation : T8 hemmed in? OK. T8 is in the perfect configuration for a terminal, wide midfield concourses bisected by a central spine which houses the functional
149 BN747 : Good point..but doesn't mean it can't be done. How LAX is pulling off what they are doing and have done in whole lot less spacethan what JFK has...is
150 beeweel15 : "Fly with DL you still have a mile to go before you officially enter the USA"
151 Mir : Like I said before, it would have been extremely easy to build a new security area that didn't cover up the concessions area. So I don't think that's
152 STT757 : It was 57 gates total, with about 20 of those regional jet gates on concourses that were never built. If they build out the remaining mainline concou
153 jetlanta : T4 is going to be configured exactly like AMS. The retail/concessions will be airside. I think the AMS model works pretty well, don't you? By hemmed
154 FlyPNS1 : Yes because Pan Am was really the only game in town for long-haul international....them and TWA. And I might remind you that much of Pan Am's arrogan
155 jfklganyc : I love how you guys argue and argue and argue about DL vs AA winning NYC. As someone who lives here, I want all 3 players to be successful at JFK. The
156 BN747 : You're about to find out just how well they play...this thread just posted.. AMR/OW Expansion Of T-8 At JFK And it just the beginning.... We're talki
157 Post contains links beeweel15 : The AMS is completely different to T4. The current T4 has half of the AMS features and that is the pre security shopping and eating area. AMS has it
158 LDVAviation : If you are going to put it that way, consider this. Flights can always be added. There will come a time when the slot controls will be lifted or modi
159 jsquared : A couple of thoughts on this lively discussion... 1) Seriously, what type of person chooses an airline based on the architecture of the terminal it op
160 Post contains links LDVAviation : We are both wrong. It was supposed to be 41 mainline and 18 regional. Here is the original press release. See this link: http://web.archive.org/web/2
161 MSPNWA : Since I've never been to T4, I did some quick measurements of the current T4 gate areas versus some of Delta's other hub terminals, and the current T
162 RL757PVD : As Jetlanta already pointed out, that with only 250 slots, the cost spending over $2 billion on a terminal becomes rather difficult to recoup. 250 Fl
163 panamair : Actually that applies more to AA and T8 when you arrive at the satellite terminal from an international flight. Try having your international aircraf
164 Post contains images exFATboy : It seems cheap and temporary because, barring a substantial drawdown by DL at JFK it is temporary, at least in the context of airport development, wh
165 Lufthansa411 : The last time I was there (albeit a bit more than a year ago) it looked as though gypsies had taken over the terminal and decided to put tents wherev
166 jetlanta : Already discussed above. This move is part of a longer-term plan to consolidate alliances within specific facilities. OW carriers moving to T8 will e
167 Post contains images OA412 : I don't get it. Until 2 days ago, T4 was arguably the nicest terminal that JFK has (followed probably by T8), and now it's a 3rd world garbage dump? O
168 panamair : People are grabbing at straws to shoot the DL T4 plan down - and now we're using pre versus post-security retail options as another reason? Folks, tel
169 LDVAviation : It already is a problem today, on both the A and B side. The funny thing is that Delta recognized this. While space constraints made it impossible fo
170 panamair : CO is spread across all three terminals at EWR. Besides C, they use B for international arrivals quite a bit (where they share FIS facilities with mu
171 LDVAviation : The underground tunnel between the main AA terminal and the midfield concourse is only 760 feet. I am going to guess that the connector between T2 an
172 jetlanta : But in T4/T2 you don't have to wait for an escalator on each end. Really, can we call this a draw? Certainly it isn't going to drive carrier choice f
173 junction : You got that right. The decision for most is usually made by which carrier comes up cheapest on Orbitz, Travelocity, Priceline, etc, The design remin
174 OA412 : I knew about them using Terminal A, but I wasn't aware that they also use B. It's funny, some of the same issues that people are complaining about ar
175 LDVAviation : I don't want to make this thread into an AA versus Delta all-out fight. Let me just say this: Despite all of Delta's growth at JFK, it only commands
176 Post contains images RL757PVD : Well I was just looking at T5 air train stop and the walk to the terminal from there, I guess we can count out Jetblue from being a key player in New
177 jetlanta : You are right, those are AA's bread and butter. They've been there forever. They've also been bigger in NYC forever. Yet look at the overall revenue
178 LDVAviation : You are glossing over some very valid points. 1. The concourses in T4 today are manageably long. In the future, T4B will be about 2.5 times as long a
179 beeweel15 : The connector from T4 to T2 will be approximately 1700 feet. The new extended T4B will be approximately 3000feet now thats a lot of walking. As menti
180 STT757 : Take CO's operations from Terminal A and B at EWR out of the equation, CO still handles more passengers per year through Terminal C alone than DL doe
181 RL757PVD : Take a look at the full size picture the T4B extension looks wider as well, its hard to see with the angle, but if you look at where the "kink" is, i
182 ATLflyer : It was pretty clear that this is a Phase I from that rendering that was posted. Eventually RJ gates will at the end of T4B and T4A will be extended. D
183 jetlanta : Which of 2-4 are you absolutely sure about?
184 jfklganyc : "Until Delta becomes the largest carrier in either of these two markets (JFK/LAX or JFK/LHR), can we really talk about Delta's eating AA's lunch? I do
185 panamair : Not sure what that has to do with the discussion? My point was that CO being spread out over all three terminals apparently hasn't hampered their abi
186 caribbean484 : They really don't have to be, currently they are adding a third 764 JFK-LHR in the winter and have 6 daily 757 to LAX, they are still growing. I am n
187 anonms : Looks like everyone else overlooked this. It's not like DL can run all of their operations out of T2 or T3 while the other gets torn down and rebuilt
188 Post contains images NYCAdvantage : as a customer too, and someone who lives here in NYC, I can tell you, that even if Delta had $20 billion on hand to spend on a mega terminal at JFK,
189 gaystudpilot : PDX ORD BNA... who cares? BUF... who cares? SYR... who cares? ROC... who cares? ALB... who cares? ATL PHX... who cares? DEN... who cares? DTW
190 LDVAviation : Look at the drawing again. If the extension to T4B were wider at the dogleg ("kink") there would be an indentation or deviation in the taxiways where
191 RL757PVD : I think the only people ho would really notice that comment would be us on here. If they said they were widening it it would likely be confused for w
192 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Any takers? The people in those cities care. DL revenue management cares. DL has AA beat by 4+ million passengers @ JFK alone. But who cares?
193 LDVAviation : We'll just have to wait and see. From experience, however, in the area of airport design and development, nothing good ever comes from doing things o
194 STT757 : Internationally AA and DL are separated by only a couple hundred thousand, goes to show what all those AA 777s can do compared to all the DL 767s. Do
195 LDVAviation : 20 to 30 feet would be remarkably wider. That would show up in any drawing of the expanded terminal. In fact, from looking at the drawing, that is as
196 Post contains links and images deltal1011man : http://www.aeroclix.com/2010/01/26/d...t-and-lounge-upgrades-by-mid-2013/ See some airlines don't need to go out and order 500 737s and take on all th
197 STT757 : There's also the possibility of more carriers moving into T-4, as depicted in the renderings T-4A will also be expanded at somepoint. With BA, IB and
198 NYCAdvantage : Down the road is a possibility, but I feel that T7 is in a Better shape than T2, maybe port my want to expand T1 before they destroy T7. For sure JFK
199 Post contains images deltal1011man : only in your world would it make since to keep the 60s era T2 and build a new building for UA. but hey i would expect you to say something along the
200 RL757PVD : If Delta can get all of Skyteam into T4 A/B I could see a T1 expansion in the form of a domestic wing to replace T2 and the new T1 can essentially be
201 STT757 : When did I say they wouldn't do anything to T-2?.. T-2 and T-7 at somepoint down the road.
202 deltal1011man : Then UA wont be moving into T4A, Delta will be. Thats the idea, Delta is planning on with SkyTeam to take over 4, not just T4B. Your not going to rep
203 Post contains images KaiGywer : Convenience If I am spending $450 a year on a SkyClub membership, I shouldn't have to either go through security or trek a long way to my gate
204 deltal1011man : Before this thing is said and done i expect 3/4 clubs in T4. 1) maybe get one of the landside clubs open 2) put a plane side club in the main termina
205 jetlanta : How many major hubs have clubs pre-security? When they do, it's because there is no room post-security. DL will have a super-sized SkyClub smack dab
206 LDVAviation : That's a lot of wishful thinking on your part. Let's see 4 clubs and RJ gates by 2013. According to Delta's own press release and the Port Authority'
207 exFATboy : The only problem with this scenario (other than possible legal wrangling regarding Delta and its allies getting de facto control over T4A, which is,
208 mayor : Where does it say that T-2 will be torn down? From what I read, T-2 becomes DL's domestic terminal with a walkway over to T-4.
209 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : I think JFK will forever be a construction project
210 icna05e : Yes. By then T5 will start to show its age and T8 will look like a slum. And Port authority will decide on breaaking the 3 terminals into 8 or 9 smal
211 deltal1011man : Don't think i said 4 clubs by 2013.....nope no i didn't You can look at the model and see T4B get wider..........Delta isn't going to post a blue pri
212 STT757 : DL took down the renderings showing the expanded T-4A and the regional jet concourse, they took it down because that's some kind of long term goal ra
213 Post contains images STT757 : This is the rendering they meant to release, the other rendering is more of a conceptual wish list.
214 FlyASAGuy2005 : Thanks for that! So, now i'm a little more than confused so help me out a bit. Based on today and what we see in this rendering, how many gates is De
215 STT757 : They are "gaining" exactly zero additional gates vs. what they have today, as discussed at length here (and by the aviation director of the Port Auth
216 foxbravo : Yes, I noticed that too. Thanks for posting--it all makes a lot more sense now. The first rendering, though it looked great, clearly went far beyond
217 STT757 : Another thought to consider is that DL presented more than one plan to the Port Authority, the plan that included the expanded T-4A and the regional j
218 Post contains images NYCAdvantage : one reality of this project is, the length of time that is going to take, Do I believe Delta is going to end with T4 all to them selves? I do believe
219 beeweel15 : Just as I said earlier DL will be doing this as the carriers currently at T4 will not be footing that costs to be moving their planes around. One fea
220 Post contains images OA412 : No not really. We don't know that any of those points are correct just yet. Until we have official confirmation one way or the other, we can't really
221 Post contains links STT757 : The renderings are from Skidmore Owens and Merrill, the Architects that designed T-4 and are designing the expansion. http://archpaper.com/e-board_re
222 Mir : So we're back to six non-DL gates at T4? How exactly do they expect that to work out? There isn't enough space at other terminals to put that many ex
223 planetime : This is definitely not an improvement over what they have now. Also the small concourse 4b? i think, it can not handle all the traffic going to t4 no
224 STT757 : It's nine non DL gates, the terminal will have 25 gates (16 DL, 9 non DL).
225 NYCAdvantage : I can see your point, But for sure I can not imagine Delta at T4 been any worse than at T3, At T4 some days will be heavenly smooth, and other days w
226 mayor : I can see a couple of disadvantages with parking at the gate, unloading the pax and bags, pushing off to the parking area, unloading the cargo, etc.
227 Post contains images STT757 : That's because the Port Authority agreed to this: Not the other one with the expanded T-4A and Regional jet concourse, again it's either because eith
228 NYCAdvantage : Most certainly I do Agree with you, but in the other hand today I see lines of Delta planes from near T2 all the way past hangar 12 waiting for gates
229 STT757 : On the contrary, it's doubtful more than a handful of carriers could vacate T-4. The only carrier we can say for certain will leave is Jetblue, they
230 Mir : That's still not a whole lot, especially considering that the terminal is pretty much full during the evening rush. I don't see AF getting out of T1,
231 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Doesn't sound like it to me. All the fanfare in me has all but dissipated. The renderings I originally saw was what I thought was approved by the boa
232 STT757 : DL replaces their 16 gates at T-3 with 16 gates at an expanded T-4B, and T-2 is for domestic (and Regional jets) flights. That's it. When it comes to
233 mayor : Well, everything I've seen and read about this plan, calls it "phase one", implying that there is at least a phase two or three out there, also.
234 Post contains links STT757 : This is what the DL press release states: Also in the DL press release is this quote from the president of JFKIAT; This quote should put to rest the
235 cokepopper : Isn't Delta actually loosing total # of gates? Presently, I think we have around 17 gates in terminal 3 and use 3 or 4 gates in Terminal 4 around 21
236 planetime : $1.2 billion for 9 gates and connector seems quite expensive. I thought it was for both expansion of the regional gates and concourse 4a. AA was able
237 mayor : Which backs up what I said. Why call it "phase one" if there are no other phases?
238 TOMMY767 : No I definitely do not think CO deserves credit for monopolizing EWR (with a few exceptions.) And DL has 9 gates in B-1. They were never in Terminal
239 panamair : There are currently 16 jet bridge-equipped gates in T3. 15 of them are capable of handling mainline equipment (Gates 1-10, 12, 14-17) while one of th
240 jfklganyc : "B.) The larger proposal with the RJ concourse and expanded T-4A was rejected, and the scaled down option approved." Truth is STT, this is all specula
241 STT757 : Then why no mention of a "phase approach" from the Port Authority, and also why the quick removal of the more extravagant rendering? Why not come out
242 planetime : Is there actually any plans for T2 other than the walkway to the T4? Looks like according to the pictures they all remain the same.
243 jetlanta : Seriously, it's politics, finance and business all wrapped up into one. There could be dozens of reasons. Delta's press release does specifically men
244 panamair : Because post-2015 is still a long way off and there are a lot of what-ifs, regarding which carriers will bunk in together, who will pay for what, wha
245 Post contains links LDVAviation : Where in Delta's press release does it mention "phases"? Here is the link: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1095. What did I miss? As to
246 RL757PVD : What I found interesting was the financing in how little of Delta's money is going in, and my guess is that is because they will have virtually no eq
247 beeweel15 : Thats a question I always ask over the years. T2 always gets away from the wrecking ball. What tehy should have done was where the T2 site is put the
248 mayor : Perhaps, here, taken from the press release.................. Construction is scheduled to begin in September 2010, with anticipated completion of ph
249 DFWEagle : Why will they wait two years to demolish T3 after Delta leaves it?
250 mayor : I don't think they'll do the complete move into T-4 until the project is done, then they can do the demo on T-3. They have to have something to use w
251 Post contains links STT757 : Okay I have some answers: After watching the entire video of the Port Authority's Operations committee meeting I have a couple answers to some of the
252 beeweel15 : One thing will DL adjust to being in a terminal where they cant say it is the Delta Terminal @ JFK.
253 BlueF9A320 : I hate to be obtuse, but do you mean debt when you write debit? Debit and debt are two totally different concepts. debit |ˈdebit| noun an entry reco
254 NYCAdvantage : Do they need to adjust, tell me why? I don't know what will happen after 2020 with T2, but if they do not renew the lease, where are the domestic ope
255 STT757 : Susan Baer mentioned that if DL does not commit to a "Phase II", that they would further extend the lease of T-2. Right now with their latest three y
256 planetime : It just seems AA managed to replace their terminal on top of existing terminal much more smoother with soooo much more gates and etc than DL.
257 LDVAviation : What part of the video(s) gave you this idea? I think you are reading too much into this. From what I remember, in the finance committee, the subject
258 mayor : Oh, please don't make me go back and dig up the myriad of posts that you made in response to DL saying they were going to announce plans for JFK. In
259 Post contains images NYCAdvantage : thanx true but at the same time, you can start looking at the new vision for the future of JFK, I think it will be more like the One World terminal,
260 jfklganyc : "It just seems AA managed to replace their terminal on top of existing terminal much more smoother with soooo much more gates and etc than DL." Did yo
261 rampart : IIRC, this is the 2nd renovation of T8 in which American has worked around itself and not moved to another terminal or come from another terminal. -R
262 panamair : Between 1991 and 2005, before DL went on its JFK expansion, there were multiple other non-Skyteam, non-partner airlines that used the "Delta terminal
263 cokepopper : just curious, where is WorldTraveler in all of this?
264 STT757 : Am I wrong or did the PA board announce it before DL?.. I noticed this too, over the weekend I was wondering why he and another poster were not parti
265 RL757PVD : Do you really think it would be prudent for Delta to announce terminal plans funded by the Port Authority before the PA could formally approve it? Th
266 jetlanta : Not even that many. More like 200.
267 mayor : Same day, not sure of the timeline but it couldn't have been much difference.
268 Revelation : Well if no one can formulate an opinion then this thread should be empty, no? Can't be sure, just said it's my opinion, especially when I see the 1/3
269 cokepopper : How to you arrive at that assumption? The expansion of the concourse B sill have little effect. meanwhile operations will continue as is on Term 3 un
270 pit : I heard that part of T2 flooded today. anyone know for sure?
271 jfklganyc : I don't know about T2, but last time I was in the rotunda, it had so many holes in the roof, there might as well have not been a roof at all. Delta sh
272 alitalia744 : I'm still waiting for that beer you were going to buy me STT! How have you been? Still around, just been too busy with work to keep up. Seems like DL
273 RL757PVD : Not really.... Step 1) get with the times Step 2) Develop facilities for future needs to avoid the terminal situation from repeating itself and accom
274 STT757 : It's a little less than even I was expecting, but it's a huge improvement. And if they follow through on the other phases they will have themselves a
275 jetlanta : I wasn't expecting much more in terms of actual development, but it is definitely on the minimal side. I think the plan up until very recently had in
276 LipeGIG : Due to its size, we are closing this thread. If there's more to discuss, please open a second part Regards, Felipe
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