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IB Looking To Add New Flights To Brazil In 2011  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11415 posts, RR: 59
Posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8300 times:
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In accordance with news story from PANROTAS (link in the end), Iberia is set to start new flights to Brazil in 2011, and it's currently looking to 4 potential destinations:

FOR, REC, CNF and BSB

Their decision will be announced later this year, and the flights shall begin (from 3x to 5x weekly) in the first months of 2011, and even can consider service to two markets with a single route.

IB said also that they are looking to use the A346 on their second flight to Sao Paulo. Currently they are flying 22 weekly to Brazil (14 Sao Paulo, 7 Rio de Janeiro and 1 Salvador) and announced plans to run up 30 by the end of 2011.

There are rumors also about a second flight to Rio and a Barcelona-Sao Paulo flight, but IB do not hold more frequencies to Sao Paulo at this time, only 14 to Northeast and up to 7 to other places.

News in portuguese only:
http://www.panrotas.com.br/noticia-t...disputam-voos-da-iberia_60473.html


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8272 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
and even can consider service to two markets with a single route.

If they do that, it would be stupid not to include a Southern capital. MAD-CNF-POA is the best option IMHO.


User currently offlinecadamosto From Portugal, joined Jul 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8226 times:

Good news for Brazil, bad news for TP...

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 1):

If they do that, it would be stupid not to include a Southern capital. MAD-CNF-POA is the best option IMHO.


Is POA possible for IB A340's? Isn't the runway too short?

[Edited 2010-08-12 20:24:50]

User currently offlineRodRB From Brazil, joined Feb 2010, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8202 times:

Quoting cadamosto (Reply 2):
Is POA possible for IB A340's? Isn't the runway too short?

No problem for a short flight as CNF-POA. btw, didn't AR fly POA-MIA as a charter?


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8197 times:

Quoting RodRB (Reply 3):
No problem for a short flight as CNF-POA.

Yes, exactly. CNF-POA is a short hop.

Quoting RodRB (Reply 3):
didn't AR fly POA-MIA as a charter?

Yes, indeed. I've seen footage of the take off. It's scary how slow it climbs.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11415 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8119 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 1):
If they do that, it would be stupid not to include a Southern capital. MAD-CNF-POA is the best option IMHO

It seems a good option, but i believe they will go for a mix of Northeast and Southeast (MAD-FOR-CNF-MAD for example).

Quoting cadamosto (Reply 2):
Good news for Brazil, bad news for TP...

That's right, specially if they go for CNF where TP do not offer a daily product. They have less damage in the Northeast in my view.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8094 times:

TP and LIS really have to get their game face on, because just as I was afraid IB has smelled a big tasty lunch is cooking in the Brazilian market. I think that as far as Y goes, TP has the better product to offer, but in J...really they must do something about it.
I frankly don't understand why they don't have any plans to acquire aircraft significantly larger than the A343 to take a big bite out of cargo yields, especially on routes like GRU and LAD. IB really has an advantage on that front.

Good going Iberia!


Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12407 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Is their (IB's) ability to grow in the Brazilian market dependant on bilateral negotiations? How restrictive is the current bilateral between Brazil and Spain?

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7882 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):
Is their (IB's) ability to grow in the Brazilian market dependant on bilateral negotiations? How restrictive is the current bilateral between Brazil and Spain?

There will be open skies soon: Brazil-Europe To Sign Open Skies (by LipeGIG May 25 2010 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7879 times:

IB executives have mentioned that Brazil is their no. 1 market in Latin America, Argentina comes after.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
In accordance with news story from PANROTAS (link in the end), Iberia is set to start new flights to Brazil in 2011, and it's currently looking to 4 potential destinations:

FOR, REC, CNF and BSB

Thanks for sharing, Lipe. It is a difficult decision:

Perhaps MAD-SSA-CNF-MAD could be an interesting routing providing IB access to a market it already knows (SSA) and with leisure loads combined the the corporate business of CNF which could temper yields. However, I am a strong oponent to stop-over flights, as the current market configuration asks for nonstop operations. If CNF or BSB pax need to stop-over they rather make a connection in LIS with TAP or GRU/GIG.

The news story also mentions that 60% of IB traffic originates in Brazil, similar to other airlines, as expected. I suspect Spain origin must be no more than 20% (between 10%-20%). The same logic happened with TAP Northeast routes where Brazil origin was 40% 2 years ago and now has become 60%, and Portugal origin declined to 10%-20% with other part of the world with 20%-30%.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
IB said also that they are looking to use the A346 on their second flight to Sao Paulo. Currently they are flying 22 weekly to Brazil (14 Sao Paulo, 7 Rio de Janeiro and 1 Salvador) and announced plans to run up 30 by the end of 2011.

GRU is a top performer for IB and I do expect the A346 to be introduced in GRU on a gradual fashion. In fact, IB has been using the A346 in GRU for quite some time esporatically.

Regarding GIG, in order to further improve performance, they need to adjust the schedule to red-eye, this would certainly imporve its competitiveness.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
There are rumors also about a second flight to Rio and a Barcelona-Sao Paulo flight, but IB do not hold more frequencies to Sao Paulo at this time, only 14 to Northeast and up to 7 to other places.

About BCN-GRU the roumor is that SQ is investigating a possible flight to Brazil via BCN operating SIN-BCN-GRU or SIN-BRU-GRU, the second option having cargo/star hub advantage.

Interesting enough, IB would not explore long-haul flights from BCN! A route such as BCN-GRU would certainly be very attractive and they could miss out if another airline explores this market segment.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):
Is their (IB's) ability to grow in the Brazilian market dependant on bilateral negotiations? How restrictive is the current bilateral between Brazil and Spain?

Yes, they dont have more frequencies to GRU (limit of 14 weekly), but they can still use bigger planes eg A346. Howver, IB still has available 14 frequencies to Northeast Brazil and 7 other any other place except GRU.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 6):
plans to acquire aircraft significantly larger than the A343 to take a big bite out of cargo yields, especially on routes like GRU and LAD. IB really has an advantage on that front

TAP could take more advantage of cargo, as you said, and this year TAP has not received a single new aircraft. But it is wise in being conservate, because you never know the market. As you mentioned, TAP needs to open its eyes concerning IB expansion in Brazil.

Rgs,


User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7540 times:

That's great news.

My question: Isn't the A343 (their smallest long haul airplane) too much capacity for the proposed destinations? At least as a start-up. They could consider A332s at this scenario.

Rgs,
JJ8080



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7487 times:
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Just one and short question: enough demand to open these new destinations? Would not be better to see direct flights from Paraguay to Spain or try to compete with Aerosur in the VVI-MAD?

Regards,

Gerard



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7278 times:
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IB is just crying for A332 or with the BA merger some 763ER's would be ok too. IF IB were to repaint them who would know they are OLD. A 767 would be perfect for small northern Brazilian cities and they are already depreciated, what a great idea with cheap planes and cheap fuel. IB's A343 seat 260 pasengers, a 767 would be about 200. Those flights to northern Brazil are about 8 hours, much closer then GRU and GIG.

User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7255 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
IB is just crying for A332 or with the BA merger some 763ER's would be ok too. IF IB were to repaint them who would know they are OLD. A 767 would be perfect for small northern Brazilian cities and they are already depreciated, what a great idea with cheap planes and cheap fuel. IB's A343 seat 260 pasengers, a 767 would be about 200. Those flights to northern Brazil are about 8 hours, much closer then GRU and GIG.

Agree. In fact, BA has some 763s that aren't that old. First frames were received in 1990, however they got some on the late 90s (1998, IIRC). IB could be very well served with 4-6 763s for LatAm expansion while they are not able to get A332s.

Say,
MAD-FOR-REC 3x weekly B763
MAD-BSB-CNF 3x weekly B763

Rgs,
JJ8080



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11415 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7021 times:
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Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 11):
Just one and short question: enough demand to open these new destinations? Would not be better to see direct flights from Paraguay to Spain or try to compete with Aerosur in the VVI-MAD?

In fact there is demand for them. As JJ neglects all secondary markets in Brazil in favour of a hub structure, it opens such markets to foreign carriers looking to offer Europe (and why not Asia/Africa) thru their hubs in Europe. TP experience shows how markets such as BSB and CNF, without leisure demand would react very well to Europe connections.
You have to think about what is coming... World Cup 2014 and event ahead, with Spain now in the top, will bring a lot of mutual focus as a lot of Europeans are looking to establish a second home in Brazil.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineScorp82 From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 10):
About BCN-GRU the roumor is that SQ is investigating a possible flight to Brazil via BCN operating SIN-BCN-GRU or SIN-BRU-GRU, the second option having cargo/star hub advantage.

Interesting enough, IB would not explore long-haul flights from BCN! A route such as BCN-GRU would certainly be very attractive and they could miss out if another airline explores this market segment.

These topics have always been discussed at length. SQ is seriously studying a possible flight to GRU and their preliminary planned route is SIN-BCN-GRU. Whether the flight has a stop in BCN or anywhere else, I think it is just a matter of time before SQ launches GRU. It is not a question of "if:, but "when".

I think many of us agree that IB seems to continuously ignore BCN's potential as another hub to North and Latin America. IB could launch flights from BCN to JFK, MIA, MEX, BOG, CCS, GRU, EZE, and even SCL and LIM and do it successfully.


User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

Quoting Scorp82 (Reply 15):
SQ is seriously studying a possible flight to GRU and their preliminary planned route is SIN-BCN-GRU. Whether the flight has a stop in BCN or anywhere else, I think it is just a matter of time before SQ launches GRU. It is not a question of "if:, but "when".

Apparently the decision is now whether operating via BRU or via BCN, they have also studied AMS, VIE in their preliminary market assessment and at some time have even considered Moscow. SQ staff told me that BRU and BCN are finalists and a decision is coming no later than 2011 for SQ starting flying to GRU.

Rgs,


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3999 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 13):
IB could be very well served with 4-6 763s for LatAm expansion while they are not able to get A332s.

Say,
MAD-FOR-REC 3x weekly B763
MAD-BSB-CNF 3x weekly B763

From a business perspective, the 763s make no sense. IB would be adding a fleet type just to try small markets that in all chance will not be very profitable. Adding a fleet type will add a bunch of big ancillary costs to IB (spare parts, crew training, cargo equipment, etc).

I do agree though with the routing. Given that the markets are small and will have to be shared with TP (and possibly AF if the join the fray), IB is likely to combine them in triangular routings.

I believe they will select one of them, and if the revenue covers the operation costs, they will add the other one a year or two later.


User currently offlinecadamosto From Portugal, joined Jul 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6641 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 16):
SQ staff told me that BRU and BCN are finalists and a decision is coming no later than 2011 for SQ starting flying to GRU.

Rgs,

Wouldn´t BRU be a very lenghty deviation for a SIN - South America Route? It would mean what, 4 more hours of flight? BCN looks a much more attractive route, at least from the PAX point of view. MXP would be a good option, too, and even LIS, although the segment LIS-GRU would have more competition - sometime ago there was a rumour that SQ would add a SIN-LIS to their network.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11415 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6543 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting incitatus (Reply 17):
From a business perspective, the 763s make no sense. IB would be adding a fleet type just to try small markets that in all chance will not be very profitable. Adding a fleet type will add a bunch of big ancillary costs to IB (spare parts, crew training, cargo equipment, etc).

Agree. It make sense more to have the A332. The point is that, in a 2 class configuration, with IB business class, it would be something like 240/250 seats, nothing so different from their A343.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6524 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Agree. It make sense more to have the A332. The point is that, in a 2 class configuration, with IB business class, it would be something like 240/250 seats, nothing so different from their A343.

Exactly, IB seats 254 people on their A343, and it would the same capacity as a 2-class A332 (for example, US seats 258 and DL 243).

In fact, I have read in some articles that IB is looking for some A332 to use them in non-Etops required routes like MAD-Canary Islands (LPA, TFN) and MAD-TLV. Iberia will likely remain for some time a non-Etops operator for TATL routes, operating only their quads A343 and A346.


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6497 times:

I think that Iberia should could consider flights to Brazil from Tenerife. NE Brazil is just a 4 hour flight and could be done with an A320. It can offer connections from there to various cities and there are plenty of flights from Tenerife to the rest of Europe as well as from NE Brazil to the rest of Brazil. If Iberia doesn't do it, perhaps GOL or Easyjet could.

User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6411 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 20):
Exactly, IB seats 254 people on their A343, and it would the same capacity as a 2-class A332 (for example, US seats 258 and DL 243).

Same as DL, KLM A332 seats 243 in 2-class configuration.

Rgs,


User currently offlineKelual From Spain, joined Jul 2008, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6296 times:

Quoting jj8080 (Reply 13):
Say,
MAD-FOR-REC 3x weekly B763
MAD-BSB-CNF 3x weekly B763

Those triangular routes are in IB plans. The A330 won't arrive until 2012, so IB will reconfigure a few A340-300 for these leisure flights. The A340-300 config is 36J 218Y, the new config will be 24J 250Y.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6273 times:

Quoting Kelual (Reply 23):
Those triangular routes are in IB plans. The A330 won't arrive until 2012, so IB will reconfigure a few A340-300 for these leisure flights. The A340-300 config is 36J 218Y, the new config will be 24J 250Y.

So you have some source to confirm that the A330 will finally join IB fleet in 2012?? It will be very nice to see in IB colors.. I hope with a new an better interior in Y... PTV´s???

So maybe if you´re right we will see the long expected order for IB long haul replacement soon, as we discuss las week...

By the way the Idea of offering NE brazil from Tenerife or even Gran Canaria is not bad but IB only flies to Spain from Canary so the connectivity is not very good.....


25 Rafabozzolla : But you should take into consideration that IB's J is of the forward facing, non herringbone, not angled, full flat type and takes up more space per
26 AF086 : Agreed. IB should fly to GIG daily red-eye and add a 3x weekly daylight service to GIG the Rio-Europe market is underserved and TAM's strong advance
27 LipeGIG : That makes more sense for secondary markets. I just remember that TP runs their flights with A332 configured to 268 seats (24J 244Y), so IB product w
28 Kelual : That's the information that the Company is providing to their employees, A330 in 2012 ordered already. About new fleet, they are considering the A350
29 hardiwv : I think they next move is mentioned above on the news: new flights to a new destination in Brazil plus expand GRU The high density A343 could be perfe
30 airbazar : So you don't think there is room for more than one airline outside of GRU/GIG? I think there is. IB will add some competition but I don't see it as b
31 incitatus : For the secondary Brazilian markets 18J 266Y would be even better. More seats to sell, but it would give IB better unit costs.
32 LipeGIG : Sorry to say, but with a difference of 6J but more than 80Y, i would say the A343 is more a premium plane, and the A346 is just a high density one. A
33 hardiwv : I am not sorry for IB. Depends on your fare level for Y, see AF B747 in GIG where they extract quite good fare leves for Y, I am sure IB would be hap
34 airbazar : They may have to as the new terminal at GRU keeps getting delayed. It makes poor economic sense to be connecting lower yield leisure traffic through
35 hardiwv : Perhaps, but IB still has GIG to develop as a potential hub to connect domestic pax and GIG is far better connected than any other Northeast Brazil a
36 LipeGIG : I don't see this way AirBazar. The potential to bring more visitors to Brazil is not at GRU but rather on places such as FOR, REC, MCZ, BPS, CFR and
37 hardiwv : Lipe, I never said IB should not fly to FOR or REC. My reasoning was that it will be impossible for IB to fly to 60 destinations in Brazil, one way o
38 airbazar : That's exactly what I meant. I think you mis-interpreted my comment. IB is occupying seats on its MAD-GRU flights by passengers that don't intend to
39 Post contains links hardiwv : According to official source AENA (Spain Airport Authority), it is intersting to have an overiew of the Spain-Brazil market, regarding January-July 20
40 incitatus : 18J is adequate for CNF and BSB. It is too much for REC and FOR. IB may decide for 24J because there may be other markets where a smaller - but not t
41 airbazar : For July this is easy to explain. It is Summer vacation after all and GIG is a much more leisure oriented market than GRU, and as seen all across the
42 jj8080 : Do you think SAL, HAV and COR would generate bigger J demand than REC, FOR, and CNF? Why is that? I'd say all the markets above would be well served
43 hardiwv : It includes transit pax. Well better some date rather than no data, right? Some more data below, all refer to traffic from Jan 2010 to Jul 2010 (thou
44 LipeGIG : Not in July, airbazar. July is low season in Rio, but was quite strong in terms of business with a lot of congress, events, and discussions going on
45 LX138 : I was undertaking a study into expansion by Spanish carriers and in a project I proposed that IB could start with the A321: MAD-LPA-REC MAD-LPA-BSB I
46 hardiwv : I dont like the above idea and the stop-over would take any competitiveness of the route besides it would kill any possible yields. Flying the route
47 jj8080 : Agree. This is something a charter airline would do. Also, LPA-BSB (3230nm) seems to be a little too long for a A321. I'm quite sure it would face re
48 incitatus : LPA-BSB impossible. LPA-REC is very close to the limit of the A321, so weight restrictions may be peculiar to this route or the flag, regulations and
49 LX138 : Thanks for the insight! I recommended squeezing the best out of the A321's in my project, so wanted to avoid A340's if poss. According to the manufact
50 jfk777 : Isn't Iberia merging with British Airways, they have 767 that just fly all over Europe, sure some could fly to Brazil and expand the MAD hub. BA has
51 airbazar : Easier said than done. I'd be surprised if it happens. We're talking about different sovereign nations with their own independent labor laws. You don
52 LipeGIG : I agree with you on both statements. The A330 is for sure cheaper than the A343 as well as the B763 seems to be the best fit for such routes to Brazi
53 hardiwv : This is a perfect statement. Indeed, with BA/IB merger BA B763 seems the perfect product for MAD-NE Brazil/CNF/BSB. BA uses such product for non-oil
54 jfk777 : Hey Ryanair has bases all over Europe, I have never heard that an Italian base need Italian pilots and a Spanish base need Spaniards as pilots. AT so
55 incitatus : You have to wonder why they do not operate a small fleet of 767s anymore. The idea of using BA aircraft makes sense economically, but like airbazar w
56 Post contains images realsim : One of the most important principles of the European Union is the free movement of workers within the 27 country members, without any type of discrim
57 Post contains images airbazar : Ryanair is one airline, one company. When Ryanair sets up a base in a country it's creating new jobs. However you're suggesting that an english pilot
58 Rafabozzolla : In one word? NO. There isn't demand, period.
59 LX138 : Would be good, they'd be better using some A332's though for these flights to keep type commonality. The long haul BA 767's were all refurbished a fe
60 Summa767 : It is good to see that Iberia is looking for new destinations in LatAm: Cordoba, San Salvador and new points in Brasil. I trust that more destination
61 migair54 : That´s not bad.... at least they don´t close the route for the winter.... IAD is more difficult because Aer Lingus was serving or it´s serving A33
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