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AC To Launch YVR-HND Eff Jan 29 2011  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

good news, new daily B767 service eff Jan 29 2011
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/August2010/17/c3201.html

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7146 times:

It should be a good route for AC.
When a direct YYZ-HND?


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6903 times:

That's good to hear, but I'm surprised AC would add a second daily to Tokyo from YVR, rather than increase service to China now that Canada finally achieved Approved Destination Status.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6739 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 2):
That's good to hear, but I'm surprised AC would add a second daily to Tokyo from YVR, rather than increase service to China now that Canada finally achieved Approved Destination Status.

AC already announced in June the doubling of YYZ-China service this fall/winter compared to the same period last year, with daily nonstops from YYZ to HKG/PEK/PVG, meaning 6 daily nonstops Canada-China when the 3 YVR flights are added.
http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=345


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6510 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 2):


That's good to hear, but I'm surprised AC would add a second daily to Tokyo from YVR, rather than increase service to China now that Canada finally achieved Approved Destination Status.

China will get its due but this is a route to an airport with limited access. So it's a chance to get into what will be a capacity-controlled situation, and probably have it codeshared by various partners with the underlying rights. It also may free up a pair of 777-300ER. AC could use a 763 to each of HND and NRT, which would be over 400 seats. With the three non-XM 767s being replaced in the short term with planes that will have the international configuration, AC can allocate more 763 capacity to Japan and put more 777-300ER into China or other growth opportunities.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

perfect flight to link up with ANA's huge HND hub and for all the domestic Japanese tourists to go skiing at Whistler/Blackcomb  

User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6381 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
With the three non-XM 767s being replaced in the short term with planes that will have the international configuration

And which new planes will that be??......AFAIK, there are no new widebodies due anytime soon. The 787s don't arrive until 2013.


User currently offlineyvrsr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6379 times:

I believe that airlines in Canada were allocated only 1 daily slot at HND during the late night/early morning hours. If there is to be a YYZ-HND flight on AC, then slots will have to be taken from the YVR-HND flight.

User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6228 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 6):

And which new planes will that be??......AFAIK, there are no new widebodies due anytime soon. The 787s don't arrive until 2

The airline is on record in financial disclosure documents as saying the 767s leaving will be replaced next year. The assumption is by 763s on short leases.


User currently offlinenaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
AC could use a 763 to each of HND and NRT, which would be over 400 seats. With the three non-XM 767s being replaced in the short term with planes that will have the international configuration, AC can allocate more 763 capacity to Japan and put more 777-300ER into China or other growth opportunities.

This is the reason why legacy airlines stand no chance in the long term. They are basically stupid, to be blunt. Let's look at the logic here: adding HND adds not a single additional traveller to AC. It is merely cannibalising NRT leaving more capacity at NRT to get low yield connecting traffic from BKK, Manila and other destinations. So, unit revenue will likely not increase but unit cost witll skyrocket. Replacing a 777-300 with two 211-seat B767-300ERs while splitting the operatioon at two airports will result in a huge jump in unit cost. So Tokyo will lose even more money for AC. Spare the elusive high yield argument because there is none in Japan (only 13% of all outbound traffic is business related).

Flights land at HND too late for connections so the ANA feed it might get works only on the outbound portion, not inbound. HND is closer to the city than NRT but it is still very difficult to get there from Saitama, Chiba and northern Tokyo. Besides, by the time you clear customs and get your bags and the monorail to the city all trains would be shut for the night.

I am not a big fan of HND as an international destination and other than some of the daytime Asian flights, I have yet to see a night time flight that makes sense.


User currently offlineFly2YYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1046 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5746 times:

Well at least with the timing of the departure out of YVR at least it will feed into this flight from all the aircraft coming in from the rest of Canada:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Days of week Depart Arrive Depart Arrive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, Vancouver Haneda at 23:00 Haneda at 00:30 Vancouver at
Wednesday, at 19:30 the next night (beginning 16:25 the
Friday, January 31) previous day
Saturday
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, Vancouver Haneda at 22:30 Haneda at 00:30 Vancouver at
Thursday, at 19:00 the next night (beginning 16:25 the
Sunday January 31) previous day
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 9):
This is the reason why legacy airlines stand no chance in the long term. They are basically stupid, to be blunt. Let's look at the logic here: adding HND adds not a single additional traveller to AC. It is merely cannibalising NRT leaving more capacity at NRT to get low yield connecting traffic from BKK, Manila and other destinations. So, unit revenue will likely not increase but unit cost witll skyrocket. Replacing a 777-300 with two 211-seat B767-300ERs while splitting the operatioon at two airports will result in a huge jump in unit cost. So Tokyo will lose even more money for AC. Spare the elusive high yield argument because there is none in Japan (only 13% of all outbound traffic is business related).

Flights land at HND too late for connections so the ANA feed it might get works only on the outbound portion, not inbound. HND is closer to the city than NRT but it is still very difficult to get there from Saitama, Chiba and northern Tokyo. Besides, by the time you clear customs and get your bags and the monorail to the city all trains would be shut for the night.

I am not a big fan of HND as an international destination and other than some of the daytime Asian flights, I have yet to see a night time flight that makes sense.

Naritaflyer,

You make good points about the short-term points consequences of this move.

The long-term strategy around this move is something you have not analyzed. Do you know what the future of AC's operations are at NRT? Will a better slot be made available beyond 2013 making HND more attractive - especially from an intra-Japan perspective?

Did you also consider the impact of AC not being at HND? The competition for local traffic to Japan will put AC at a disadvantage vs. DL/AA/JL etc.

HND is a huge opportunity for carriers to get a better piece of the intra-Japan market, and also leverage the proximity of HND to the city center. The future of NRT is definitely in question, but one would have to fault the Japanese government... essentially NRT is not an effective hub for Japan.


User currently offlinenaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 11):
The long-term strategy around this move is something you have not analyzed. Do you know what the future of AC's operations are at NRT? Will a better slot be made available beyond 2013 making HND more attractive - especially from an intra-Japan perspective?

Can you expand on that please? I am not familiar with what you are saying? Are you suggesting the future of AC at NRT is uncertain? Las I saw Canada was allowed 38 departures at NRT in summer and 34 in winter and there was no date limit on that.


User currently offlineyvrsr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 9):
This is the reason why legacy airlines stand no chance in the long term. They are basically stupid, to be blunt. Let's look at the logic here: adding HND adds not a single additional traveller to AC

How do you know AC will not add a single additional traveller? Personally, I find this hard to believe.

Isn't the whole point of flying out of HND is that it is more convenient than flying from NRT? Every day there are 2 flights from NRT to YVR, one on Japan Airlines and the other on AC. You don't think some people who take the JAL flight won't be interested in taking the HND-YVR flight for the convenience?

Additionally, people fly NRT - YVR via a US connection in (LAX, SFO, SEA). You don't think some of these travellers won't be interested in taking the HND-YVR flight for the convenience?


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5597 times:

Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 12):
Can you expand on that please? I am not familiar with what you are saying? Are you suggesting the future of AC at NRT is uncertain? Las I saw Canada was allowed 38 departures at NRT in summer and 34 in winter and there was no date limit on that.

Well read between the lines. If the bulk of NRT J / local demand shifts to HND, what is the long-term future at NRT of certain routes?

The status quo of NRT/HND for YVR ops may be the choice today, who is to say that AC won';t entertain a single daily 777-300 YVRHND at good slot times in the distant future, keeping NRT for YYC and YYZ.. or whatever mix of deployments which optimizes AC's TYO profitability.


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 9):
So Tokyo will lose even more money for AC

How do you know Tokyo is losing money for AC?


User currently offlinenaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5262 times:

Quoting yvrsr (Reply 13):
Isn't the whole point of flying out of HND is that it is more convenient than flying from NRT? Every day there are 2 flights from NRT to YVR, one on Japan Airlines and the other on AC. You don't think some people who take the JAL flight won't be interested in taking the HND-YVR flight for the convenience?

Additionally, people fly NRT - YVR via a US connection in (LAX, SFO, SEA). You don't think some of these travellers won't be interested in taking the HND-YVR flight for the convenience?

I live in central Tokyo and use Narita all the time and I guess I don't get why HND is more convenient? Having said that, I definitely think that many people would be interested in HND. But will more people travel to Canada because there is a flight from HND? Most likely not. However, given the increase in Capacity AC may have to lower fares and those low fares will no doubt increase traffic. My point is that splitting flights between two airports increases unit cost while unit revenue will decline. It's simple math and as a business it makes no sense. But legacy airlines have never figured out what made sense and what didn't so that doesn't surprise me.

Those who fly to YVR from U.S. hubs do so because of lower prices and they will likely continue to do so. Again, there is very little business traffic between Japan and Canada so the appeal of J class passengers is minimal. Also remember that HND makes sense only to those living in Central-west Tokyo and Yokohama. Not to those living in Central-East Tokyo and Chiba. Connections from other cities in japan works only on the outbound portion and a hotel room in Tokyo would be required on the return portion. Not an appealing point for connections.


User currently offlineACABlaker From Canada, joined Aug 2010, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

Well a few things to consider is to see if any Star Alliance partners are augmenting service to NRT that coupled with approved status from China, as well as rebounding economies may see an increase in cnx passengers thru NRT to Canada. In which case you would not be sacrificing NRT's service. AC is also positioning itself with major US expansion and NRT-YYZ has been seeing steady increase in cnx outbound. By filtering additional pax. thru YVR it takes pressure off of the home base and augments YVR-XXX services and expansion, already same setup at YYC.

Second to that is the Cargo aspect of AC, HND would serve to help alleviate the busier days on NRT in terms of Cargo Pallets and Containers. A Pallet bump can cost thousands of dollars and AC does have a Cargo crunch on alot of flights to Asia, not to mention regaining mail contracts worth millions over the past few months. When YYZ-Asia flights are stuffed, we use YVR as a dump point for the day by sending everything there and then onwards. This late day 767 will give additional capacity and coupled with a half decent load will easily break even. Lack of dedicated freighters coupled with a huge push to regain mail and cargo contracts is filling flights to capacity and is a huge source of flight revenue for the company for a minor increase in fuel costs. No to mention the flight will likely originate from YYZ as a mid-day 767 to YVR. This method of scheduling has been very profitable for us. AC033 - YYZ-YVR-SYD, AC063 - YYZ-YVR-ICN, AC017 - YYZ-YVR-HKG, AC009 - YYZ-YYC-NRT. Im willing to bet HND will be the same idea, my money is on AC109 being flipped to AC005. AC109 is a 320 1400dep from YYZ, once HND starts its upgauge to 763 and will likely be the fin anyways in my opinion. But we will see,


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5061 times:

Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 16):

Those who fly to YVR from U.S. hubs do so because of lower prices and they will likely continue to do so. Again, there is very little business traffic between Japan and Canada so the appeal of J class passengers is minimal. Also remember that HND makes sense only to those living in Central-west Tokyo and Yokohama. Not to those living in Central-East Tokyo and Chiba. Connections from other cities in japan works only on the outbound portion and a hotel room in Tokyo would be required on the return portion. Not an appealing point for connections.

The only other Star service to North America is ANA's HND-LAX. AC will get Star business (meaning UA) if someone prefers to fly to HND via YVR instead of flying nonstop to NRT. For example, in the Chicago area, there will be a choice of nonstops to NRT and a one-stop for Star frequent flyers via YVR. So AC will get some Star business. I have always found the NRT commute to downtown a bit much coming off a long flight. I have never flown to HND, but would likely try it. And like I said, if it allows AC to replace a 777W on NRT with a 763, the bigger plane can be redeployed more profitably.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Quoting naritaflyer (Reply 16):
Again, there is very little business traffic between Japan and Canada so the appeal of J class passengers is minimal.

However, whatever business travel there is should find the new YVR-HND schedule attractive, especially westbound where the 1930 departure and 2300 arrival (30 minutes earlier 3 days a week) will permit a full business day in YVR and a full night's sleep in Tokyo. It gives AC a good opportunity to attract passengers from JL. It also increases the connecting options at YVR. For example, a passenger can leave YYZ as late as 1600 and connect to the YVR-HND flight vs. the YYZ-NRT nonstop about 3 hours earlier.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

So, with HND eating up a B763, what route will we lose next summer ? If the three non-XM 767s are being replaced 1 for 1 with planes that will have the international configuration, that still puts us at no gains in terms of 767 and a loss of one to HND.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

I have a strong inkling that AC is taking up 777 options. I would not be shocked to learn slots are already reserved. The new China services are very cargo heavy so would make sense to see addiitonal 777's placed there. I also believe that AC already has some 763's lined up to lease, to replace the non-xm'd versions. AC's rare public grousing earlier in the year about the 787 delays are in no doubt due to need to expand new services and new flights to pick up on opportunities like HND. I wonder if the loads on the three flights of non-XM aircaft warrant extending these flights or one or more of the aircraft is being moved.

Thanks ACABlaker for the reminder that bums in the seats aren't the only measure of profit for airlines. Lucrative mail and other time sensitive cargo can add a lot to the bottom line.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 21):
I wonder if the loads on the three flights of non-XM aircaft warrant extending these flights or one or more of the aircraft is being moved.

Well, the non XM 763s are used on YUL-BCN, YUL-ATH, YYZ-ATH, YYZ-BCN, which amounts to 12 flights a week. Therefore 2 are all that is needed to assure those routes, and the 3rd is there as a spare aircraft i would imagine.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 21):
I wonder if the loads on the three flights of non-XM aircaft warrant extending these flights or one or more of the aircraft is being moved.

Well, the non XM 763s are used on YUL-BCN, YUL-ATH, YYZ-ATH, YYZ-BCN, which amounts to 12 flights a week. Therefore 2 are all that is needed to assure those routes, and the 3rd is there as a spare aircraft i would imagine.

I think the YYZ-DUB seasonal route, 6 per week until mid-September, also uses the non-XM 763.


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
So, with HND eating up a B763, what route will we lose next summer ? If the three non-XM 767s are being replaced 1 for 1 with planes that will have the international configuration, that still puts us at no gains in terms of 767 and a loss of one to HND.

Wasn't there a rumour floating around about AC leasing some AI 777's?


25 connies4ever : That is exactly what an FA told me a few weeks ago YVR-YOW. 3-4 frames is the goal. Mind you, an FA's opinion is not absolutely the last word.
26 AirCanada014 : That is awesome news that AC will fly into HND. I hope it all goes well with AC
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