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Delta Discontinues Manaus  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32173 posts, RR: 72
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11970 times:

Delta Air Lines will discontinue service to Manaus. Last flight to Manaus is January 30th, and last return is the next day. Flights were zero'd on the GDS a few days ago and yesterday, flights were removed entirely.

With this discontinuation, all three secondary Brazilian stations Delta opened in late 2008 - Fortaleza, Manaus and Recife - have now been discontinued.

Manaus still retains service to the United States with TAM, who operates a daily 767 service to Miami.


a.
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1087 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11882 times:

It lasted too long to be honest. The route underperformed from the start and if it wasn´t for the smaller 737 used the cut would´ve happened way before. Unfortunately, I do think that a lot of those Brazilian alternative destinations, such as MAO, SSA, REC and so on need more development to become a viable int´l destination.


DL for now should focus on enhancing its GRU/GIG services with better products.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11842 times:

No surprise here. AA will always beat DL when it comes to Latin America (particularly the secondary markets) due to Miami's incredible O&D versus the lack thereof when it comes to Atlanta. It seems DL has finally realized this and withdrawn from some very obscure South American and Caribbean markets accordingly. They should leave Latin America to AA while focusing on (secondary) European and Pacific markets, where they can easily cream AA.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 1):


DL for now should focus on enhancing its GRU/GIG services with better products.

Will be interesting to see if they can keep BSB going once AA starts flying there. I'd say Brasilia might have a chance at surviving alongside the obvious GRU/GIG due to diplomatic traffic (connecting through ATL from NYC/DC) and American tourists looking to explore the unique futuristic architecture there. You certainly didn't have that when it came to Recife and Manaus, cities most Americans have never even heard of...



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32173 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11791 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 2):
You certainly didn't have that when it came to Recife and Manaus, cities most Americans have never even heard of...

Actually, you did have that when it comes to Manaus. Manaus is the third largest destination for Americans in Brazil after Sao and Rio because of tourist traffic to the Amazon region. MAO is the defacto gateway to the Amazon.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 2):
They should leave Latin America to AA while focusing on (secondary) European and Pacific markets, where they can easily cream AA.

AA will begin to slowly enter secondary European markets over the next few years beginning in the spring. Unlike secondary markets in Latin America, there is often room for two or three carriers in the secondary markets because the traffic is simply more spread out across the U.S. and the markets are often substantially larger. Of course, AA is already behind and faces getting squeezed out of markets by DL and UA+CO, no doubt. "Easily cream" is a gross exaggeration and simply false. AA's recent ability to enter smaller markets like JFK-BCN/MXP against Delta, to outstanding success where AA now outperforms Delta in those markets in various metrics, simply proves that point.

One simply cannot compare Europe and Latin America. A "niche" market in Europe like Budapest still has nearly 1,000% the demand to the United States than a "niche" market in Latin America like Fortaleza and while demand for niche markets in Latin America might often be as much as 65% to Miami (and another 20% to New York City); niche markets in Europe rarely see more than 40% of demand to New York City. There is no comparison, but that's for another topic. AA's ability to succeed in niche markets in Latin America is simply due to the unique concentration of destination/origin traffic from the region that no other region - not even Africa - has. It is not even the total size of the market that makes it difficult to serve Atlanta-Fortaleza, its just that so much of it is overflown if you don't fly to South Florida. One does not have that problem if trying smaller markets in Asia or Europe to the West Coast or NYC/D.C., respectively.

[Edited 2010-08-18 03:29:10]


a.
User currently onlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3142 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11389 times:

A subtext here, one that will be lost on many I'm sure, is the dramatic change in the make-up of the Delta fleet over the next 6-9 months.

The reduction of available units is precipitating a significant reduction in frequency across the system. A net reduction in over 80 aircraft is going to have an impact across the line as markets that underperform will no longer have the luxury of time. The reduction of the SF3, CRJ and D9S fleets are being countered by increases in seat capacity across several fleet types, the return of 20+ aircraft from storage and the acquisition of M90s. But, while ASM's will be slightly up, the number of frequencies offered across the system will be down substantially.

Thus, difficult decisions will be made. Non-core flying and flying that doesn't show immediate potential will be at-risk. To put it simply, a market like MAO takes a lot of aircraft time. The choice here becomes one flight to MAO or couple of flights to, say BNA.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5882 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11188 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 4):
Thus, difficult decisions will be made. Non-core flying and flying that doesn't show immediate potential will be at-risk. To put it simply, a market like MAO takes a lot of aircraft time. The choice here becomes one flight to MAO or couple of flights to, say BNA.

Yes, but does extra flights to BNA add as much "value" to the system of a carrier calling itself global than MAO? There are loss leaders and IMHO MAO should be one of them.

DL should have worked with Wholesalers to the Amazon to fill this flight, folks like GAPadventures, Magnum etc.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11046 times:

This helps prove that the only US city that can successfully support service to secondary South American markets like MAO is MIA (with the exception of maybe BSB). MAO wouldn't have worked it DL served it from JFK either.

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11014 times:

FINALLY! It's about time that Delta concentrates in one secondary destination only. DL should go daily to BSB and negotiate streamlined feed at BSB with G3. DL should be able to work other secondary destinations from BSB with G3, so there is really no need to spread out through the country like it was done in 2008.

User currently onlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3142 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
Yes, but does extra flights to BNA add as much "value" to the system of a carrier calling itself global than MAO? There are loss leaders and IMHO MAO should be one of them.

Yellowtail, trust me when I say YES. BNA is dramatically more important to the Delta network than MAO. On every conceivable level. The most important two being revenue and profitability. It is a core Atlanta feed market that supports, for example, the entire Atlanta international network. We all know that the ATL local O&D to Brazil, for example, isn't huge. The reason ATL-Brazil works in general is because of markets like BNA.

A 5pm departure to BNA is infinitely more valuable than the 5pm departure to MAO. That decision process plays across the system.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10823 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
DL should have worked with Wholesalers to the Amazon to fill this flight, folks like GAPadventures, Magnum etc.

Sorry, DL never had a prayer to secondary Brazil. I'm not convinced AA is doing that well either, but at least they have a large market to leverage and grow. I know many will disagree here but I think Brazil is still very much a GIG/GRU game, and GIG just barely. Eventually secondary destinations could work from MIA/NYC, but it will be a long time before they work from any other hub.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
It's about time that Delta concentrates in one secondary destination only.

The clock is ticking on BSB. I don't think it's long of this world.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3651 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10770 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
and GIG just barely.

Nothing will ever convince you otherwise.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
The clock is ticking on BSB. I don't think it's long of this world.

If it does, AA will have the chance to balance its services to REC, SSA, CNF and BSB.


User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10543 times:

I don't know too much about the US-Brazil agreement, but once DL stops flying to Manaus, what happens to those frequencies? Can/Will DL use them on another Brazilian market or do they go back to the general pool such that other airlines can aplpy for them?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32173 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10537 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
I don't know too much about the US-Brazil agreement, but once DL stops flying to Manaus, what happens to those frequencies? Can/Will DL use them on another Brazilian market or do they go back to the general pool such that other airlines can aplpy for them?

Delta can re-use them to other cities in the Northeast, CNF and BSB.

Delta can also hold them in dormancy unless another airlines requests them.



a.
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10428 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Delta can re-use them to other cities in the Northeast, CNF and BSB.

Delta can also hold them in dormancy unless another airlines requests them.

So what do you think will happen here? Will DL use them elsewhere and if not, do you think AA or someone else will come in and request them?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32173 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10275 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 13):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Delta can re-use them to other cities in the Northeast, CNF and BSB.

Delta can also hold them in dormancy unless another airlines requests them.

So what do you think will happen here? Will DL use them elsewhere and if not, do you think AA or someone else will come in and request them?

Delta has seven of these frequencies. I suspect Delta might try to go daily to Brasilia to fight off AA, but the reality is that the BSB market is too small for two carriers, and AA will likely run Delta out of there too, even if Delta goes daily.



a.
User currently offlinejj8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9846 times:

I wonder how would have been the bottom line for this flight if operated with 752 or even 763. They would have had even lower loads, but in the other hand could have handled a considerably bigger amount of cargo, even though cargo for ATL-MAO is not the same as for MIA-MAO.

Rgs,
JJ8080



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9827 times:

ATL-BSB remains strong. I think it makes sense DL to axe MAO because it has introduced BSB (due to be upgraded in December to 5 weekly) and just got 5 frequencies to run DTW-GRU.

I hope BSB performance will remain robust. I have a lot of hope BSB will be able to keep both AA and DL.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32173 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9564 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 16):
ATL-BSB remains strong. I think it makes sense DL to axe MAO because it has introduced BSB (due to be upgraded in December to 5 weekly) and just got 5 frequencies to run DTW-GRU.

I hope BSB performance will remain robust. I have a lot of hope BSB will be able to keep both AA and DL.

How are the route's sub-60% loads by any definition "strong?"



a.
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9495 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
How are the route's sub-60% loads by any definition "strong?"

The information I had is that BSB is showing loads of +70% and expect that to increase after the axe of MAO.

Rgs,


User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5014 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9257 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 8):
It is a core Atlanta feed market that supports, for example, the entire Atlanta international network.

= BNA feeds the entire ATL international network?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
I know many will disagree here but I think Brazil is still very much a GIG/GRU game, and GIG just barely. Eventually secondary destinations could work from MIA/NYC, but it will be a long time before they work from any other hub.

= OMG, I might be partially agreeing with you. I think Brasil is a GIG/GRU game for most carriers outside AA and MiAAmi. Notice the lack of service to Europe as well ... all can support one flight ... TP to LIS and beyond ... nothing more.

To me, Brasil is very much like India ... a few years back with BOM/DEL. No doubt the others will develop - but making them work from ATL is hard.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8456 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Delta Air Lines will discontinue service to Manaus. Last flight to Manaus is January 30th, and last return is the next day. Flights were zero'd on the GDS a few days ago and yesterday, flights were removed entirely.

A little surprise to see that on the IATA winter where they got the best loads. I rather expect it as a seasonal cut.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
DL should have worked with Wholesalers to the Amazon to fill this flight, folks like GAPadventures, Magnum etc.

It could work, i'm surprised that JJ with a very bad schedule (early morning departure from MIA) is performing much better than DL with ATL.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 6):
This helps prove that the only US city that can successfully support service to secondary South American markets like MAO is MIA (with the exception of maybe BSB). MAO wouldn't have worked it DL served it from JFK either.

That's not correct. There's still some facts to be considered, but the markets are good, what they need is a little feed. There's no "mini hub" concept in any place in Brazil outside of GIG, GRU or BSB.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
FINALLY! It's about time that Delta concentrates in one secondary destination only. DL should go daily to BSB and negotiate streamlined feed at BSB with G3. DL should be able to work other secondary destinations from BSB with G3, so there is really no need to spread out through the country like it was done in 2008.
Quoting hardiwv (Reply 16):
ATL-BSB remains strong.

The results for February was not so great as January, even with the feed that DL could obtain there. There was a 763 flight with less than 30% LF. This is far from being strong, in my view.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5225 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 8175 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Sorry, DL never had a prayer to secondary Brazil. I'm not convinced AA is doing that well either, but at least they have a large market to leverage and grow. I know many will disagree here but I think Brazil is still very much a GIG/GRU game, and GIG just barely. Eventually secondary destinations could work from MIA/NYC, but it will be a long time before they work from any other hub.

I'm actually agreeing with Maverick   . Seriously though, yeah these markets were always going to have a tough time from ATL. And, I do agree with you that they probably aren't doing all that well out of MIA either. Better sure, but gangbusters, probably not. These routes can work from MIA by virtue of the much larger local market to all of Brazil vs pretty much any other US city. And, I also agree with you that Brazil is very much still a GRU/GIG game for US carriers other than AA. In fact, I'm sort of questioning all of this new GIG capacity that has been/will be added. I'm still of the opinion that something is going to have to give.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
The clock is ticking on BSB. I don't think it's long of this world.

Perhaps, I suppose we'll see what happens when AA is up and running.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1644 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7076 times:
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I could be off...but I thought Manaus was used as a prime example for the order of the 737-700 and the small sub-fleet of 73G's. Delta always makes it interesting...

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7000 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting OA412 (Reply 21):
I'm sort of questioning all of this new GIG capacity that has been/will be added. I'm still of the opinion that something is going to have to give.

GIG share continue to be below 30% of the market, but it's growing. And there's still good opportunities such as GIG-MCO with more than 75,000 annual bookings. I keep facing the same problems now that i faced years ago: packed flights.
We're not getting so much additions, much of the new flights are replacing 1 stop service with non-stop. CO and AA are like that. TAM is an addition as well as US... but they just put Rio back to what the city had 9 years ago... without oil industry... in 2001 they were 15,000 jobs... now around 250,000.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 22):
I could be off...but I thought Manaus was used as a prime example for the order of the 737-700 and the small sub-fleet of 73G's. Delta always makes it interesting

The plane is good, better than JJ old 763. TAM makes the difference with connections out of MAO, even with the fact that DL have a superior schedule.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6105 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
That's not correct. There's still some facts to be considered, but the markets are good, what they need is a little feed. There's no "mini hub" concept in any place in Brazil outside of GIG, GRU or BSB.
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 19):
To me, Brasil is very much like India ... a few years back with BOM/DEL. No doubt the others will develop - but making them work from ATL is hard.

Add GIG, VCP and CGH. The problem is more related to airlines. India saw many airlines develop and each one developed a new hub. Brazil needs more airlines based on different airports/hubs. Both GOL and TAM hub at the same airports with rare exceptions.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
The results for February was not so great as January, even with the feed that DL could obtain there. There was a 763 flight with less than 30% LF. This is far from being strong, in my view.

Lipe, this is a single B763 flight. The results with the B757 have been good with loads of +70%. In my view DL is in BSB to stay. But I agree that developing markets outside GRU/GIG-US is extremely difficult for non-MIA and/or non-AA/JJ players. Different than Europe, the visa issue also does not help. Now we have IB exploring possibilities in Northeast Brazil, for example.

Rgs,


25 yellowtail : Because they....say it with me.....work with tour wholesalers to the region. I know the folks from GAPadventures in Canada...and they book JJand CM e
26 goldenstate : Which metrics and what data source.
27 jetlanta : Data I have access to shows that AA has higher average local fares in both markets. DL carries 45 more PDEW in the BCN market, however. Lower average
28 panamair : IIRC, the same data you provided earlier also shows AA and DL trading positions in the JFK-GRU market, with Delta having the higher average local far
29 LipeGIG : I know was a single flight, but was just to show that it's not quite so good as even me was expecting. Would be easier and better to work with the fa
30 EricR : Unfortunately this point seems to get overlooked frequently on this forum. Revenue is only half the profitability equation, and profits (AS A GENERAL
31 deltal1011man : Also note DL uses the 333 on JFK-MXP which has 74 more seats than AAs 763.
32 Rafabozzolla : A good guess is that AA has the best coverage of key business markets. It has hubs (or pretty strong focus cities) in NYC (JFK and LGA), Chicago, Los
33 jetlanta : I said "A" reason, not "The" reason. Delta isn't investing in a new JFK facility with zero additional capacity for the fun of it.
34 cvg2lga : Í´m saddened by the loss of secondary service into Brasil even though I understand from the business point of view. SurfandSand has a good point to
35 OA412 : Very well stated. There is far more to "outstanding success" than highest average fare. As you point out, DL carried more passengers to both destinat
36 SJOtoLIR : It began as JJ FOR-BEL-MAO-MIA 7x weekly with 320 and then modified to JJ MAO-MIA 7x weekly with 767. . They will be performing as seasonal improveme
37 hardiwv : This proves again that BSB is doing well otherwise we could not expect such upgrade. I think the red-eye B757 is the right aircraft for the BSB marke
38 LipeGIG : Fares on Y are not bad considering the flight is shorter than Rio or Sao Paulo flights. The business class loads and yields are a different item... n
39 incitatus : Not really. It proves that during the peak season, when lots of Florida vacation travelers book up Brazil-US, DL will do better in the route with an
40 hardiwv : DL will adjust capacity during high Season. I think your statement is as blank and obvious, we all know demand increases during the holiday period in
41 MAH4546 : Manaus is operated with a 73G, with a domestic First class. Except most of those business travelers are going to Miami. The 4.5 hour flight to Miami
42 hardiwv : This was eactly my point, while MAO gets the domestic F with daylight flight pattern, BSB receives the intercontinental BE product with red-eye fligh
43 airbazar : Well, I think IAH and CO do pretty well to South and Central America. This is not entirely true. There are plenty of charters operating from various
44 Post contains images as739x : ATL losing a city? This brings service from ATL down to what 1,999,999 destinations?
45 LipeGIG : The most are Japanease executives/employees of local factories or local market from MAO. Miami is among the destinations for sure, but they share the
46 MAH4546 : With a 4PM arrival in MIA, AA can connect passengers to all the same markets! There is no advantage other than the redeye schedule, which is friendly
47 hardiwv : I think DL is in BSB to stay: it has excellent red-eye schedule and decided to deploy the B757 with BE which makes it very competitive. You are right
48 LipeGIG : BSB is not that big, and i agree. DL numbers in February were not so great as the peak month of January. What i believe is that, if DL decides to use
49 MAH4546 : You have to be kidding me. MIA has service to 14 cities in Europe, and with a 4PM arrival and AA's extensive interline agreements with all but two tr
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