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Where Does AF Send It's High Density 77W?  
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 498 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11190 times:

Did a quick search, but to no avail.

Wikipedia lists AF as presently having 30 77W's, with 12 more on order. Two interior variants are presently in use, one with 303 and one with 472 seats.

My question: how many of AF's T7W's are of the high density type and where does AF fly these aircraft?

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11191 times:

To Antananarivo, Madagascar. Had to sit in one of them for this 11 hour flight. Horrible experience, could not sit straight for 11 hours as my legs did not fit between my chair and the chair in front of me. Together with the abysmal service in AF long haul economy, this must have been my worst flight ever. Avoid these aircraft !

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1484 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11084 times:

To all the touristic destinations...

HAV.
PUJ
FDF
TNR

They used to send the B744 CIO, Caribbean and Indian Ocean this B77W are replacing them.... so you have a clue....

I flew them once Paris-HAV..... and never ever will do again.... I think fish in a can are more comfortable....


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11025 times:

The 77W is a great a/c but with this config, AF destroys the reputation of the a/c: 10 abreast config, no mood lights...


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineVal747 From France, joined Aug 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10788 times:

AF is not the only one using the 77W with this 10 abreast config.
It deserves PTP, FDF, CAY, RUN, TNR, HAV, PUJ, SDQ, and YUL once a day.


User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10692 times:

flew on it LAX-CDG last year... That was a long flight.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3074 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

F-GSQN
F-GSQO
F-GSQP
F-GSQR
F-GSQS
F-GSQT
F-GSQX

Do you mean these Paris-Orly based aircraft? I think if you run the registrations through

www.acarsd.org/acars_search.html or http://www.libhomeradar.org/databasequery/index.php you'll get the current view.


User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10375 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 5):
flew on it LAX-CDG last year... That was a long flight.



That's tragic. I would think the California routes, while catering to some tourist element, would merit something better than the cattle treatment. Was it an equipment sub, or the default for this route?


User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10338 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 5):
flew on it LAX-CDG last year... That was a long flight.

'902

I'm going to do that for the first time! Never been to the west coast...can't wait!

Why's it so long lol?

I love the 777


User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10313 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
I love the 777

Even if it has 472 seats?


User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10306 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 7):
That's tragic. I would think the California routes, while catering to some tourist element, would merit something better than the cattle treatment. Was it an equipment sub, or the default for this route?

I'll be doing a trip report on this flight after september   I went on an Air france A340 to the carribean and it was perfect so I am sure the 777-300 will be even better.

They don't treat you like cattle on Air France, they are a 4/5 star airline above British Airways in fact.


User currently offlines4popo From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10263 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 10):
I'll be doing a trip report on this flight after september I went on an Air france A340 to the carribean and it was perfect so I am sure the 777-300 will be even better.

They don't treat you like cattle on Air France, they are a 4/5 star airline above British Airways in fact.

I think you are missing the point about this particular configuration of the 777.


User currently offlineIcarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10250 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 7):
That's tragic. I would think the California routes, while catering to some tourist element, would merit something better than the cattle treatment. Was it an equipment sub, or the default for this route?

It's the default of this route! Econmy class configuration 3-4-3 is really a pain, mainly on the way back to France which is almost a night flight

Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
I'm going to do that for the first time! Never been to the west coast...can't wait!

Why's it so long lol?

Because it is very unconfortable!

AF configuration in Eco is a real disgrace and personnaly, I won't fly this airline anymore when I go to the west coast.



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1535 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10137 times:

I´d swear I was cramped into a AF high density 77W going to JNB this winter...


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10079 times:

Quoting 76er (Reply 9):
Even if it has 472 seats?
Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 12):
Because it is very unconfortable!

AF configuration in Eco is a real disgrace and personnaly, I won't fly this airline anymore when I go to the west coast.

Oh I see...but I looks on seat guru and the back seats of just 2 near the window look ideal.

would the 777-200 be the same? is the 77W a 777-300?

What is the seat pitch on them  


User currently offlineBigMac From Suriname, joined Nov 2003, 318 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 11):

Let me first say that I've never flown Y on AF or BA. I just looked up the seat data on both AF (high density 77W) and BA (747/777) and this is what I found:
AF - seat pitch 32" - seat width 17"
BA - seat pitch 31" - seat width 17.5"
Looking at the data I would rather fly AF Y on their high density 77W than BA (747/747). So why is nobody complaining about BA as much as AF?



To fly, or not to fly: that is the question
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2169 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9852 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 7):
That's tragic. I would think the California routes, while catering to some tourist element, would merit something better than the cattle treatment. Was it an equipment sub, or the default for this route?

All AF 777s sadly have a 3-4-3 Y configuration, and besides the high-density 77W, they fly in priority all the highest-yielding routes. That because they also have F, a large J cabin, and now Y+, where the money is being made.
So yes, LAX is almost certainly 777 only, an A340 would be too small, and the 744 is too high-density for a market like LAX, and no A380 there for the moment.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 1):
Together with the abysmal service in AF long haul economy, this must have been my worst flight ever.

Well, i will stand strong saying that their longhaul economy service is better than DL's (although DL is taking the right trend these days) and for sure infinitely better than KLM's (ouch, that Conimex "food" hurts...). A lot better than AC as well. Other airlines, I can't really compare on recent experiences, although LX is great and probably beats AF. Now the 3-4-3 777 seating configuration does not help for comfort for sure, but at least you're treated reasonably well on board.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 13):
I´d swear I was cramped into a AF high density 77W going to JNB this winter...

that would be the low-density one for sure, but a 3-4-3 is a 3-4-3, regardlless of the size of the premium cabins in front of you!

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
AF destroys the reputation of the a/c: 10 abreast config, no mood lights...

I think most of their 77W were introduced before the mood light system came out, wasn't AC the first airline to introduce it?
I flew through that mood light once (not overnight), i'm not sure what's so special about it.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9631 times:

I think it's time to put the things in the rights order after all I read above ...

First, what is your definition of "High density" ?

Air France is currently operating a fleet of 35 B77W in two different configurations :

9 of them are configured with :

14 J (2x3x2)
36 S (2x4x2)
422 M (3x4x3, pitch 32").

Those aircraft are used to PTP, FDF, RUN, CAY (summer only), BIA (summer only), PUJ, HAV, SDQ, TNR (summer only), YUL (summer only).

26 of them are configured with :

8 P (1x2x1)
67 J (2x3x2)
28 W (2x4x2)
200 Y (3x4x3, pitch 32")

Those aircraft are used to other AF long haul destinations (JFK, IAD, LAX, IAH, GRU, SCL, EZE, DKR, ABJ, LOS, PHC, LBV, BEY, LAD, SIN, NRT, KIX, ICN, PEK, PVG, HKG etc ...)

At the end of this year, AF will start taking delivery of additional B77W, in another configuration :

42 J (2x3x2)
24 W (2x4x2)
315 Y (3x4x3 pitch 32").

Those aircraft will progressively replace the B744 (staring Jan 4th on CDG-SGN-CDG with the first a/c)


P = La Premère (First Class)
J = L'Affaire (Business Class)
W = Premium Voyageur (Economy +)
S = Alizée Class (Economy +)
Y = Voyageur (regular Economy)
M = Vacances (Discount Economy)


User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8889 times:

Quoting BigMac (Reply 15):
Let me first say that I've never flown Y on AF or BA. I just looked up the seat data on both AF (high density 77W) and BA (747/777) and this is what I found:
AF - seat pitch 32" - seat width 17"
BA - seat pitch 31" - seat width 17.5"
Looking at the data I would rather fly AF Y on their high density 77W than BA (747/747). So why is nobody complaining about BA as much as AF?

You're right...I thought maybe I didn't know something but there are the facts, there's lots of seat room.

AF is great to me, I went on them once in 2009 and had Drinks trolley near door ready for us to help ourselves, but also a normal drinks service.


User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8797 times:

Quoting Val747 (Reply 4):
AF is not the only one using the 77W with this 10 abreast config.

Yes, but at least on EK you get 34" of pitch to compensate for the 17" seats. (Not sure about the other 10-abreasters). 32" on a longhaul flight is pretty rough.

They really cram pax in on those high-density 777s. Even "Alize" class only has 36" of pitch at 9-abreast. This is according to seatguru... is that up to date?

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air...ce/Air_France_Boeing_777-300_B.php


User currently offlines4popo From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8737 times:

Quoting BigMac (Reply 15):

It sounds great on paper, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Keep in mind that the seats themselves play a big role in how cramped you feel. Seat pitch is measured from the back of one seat to the back of the seat behind. This link has a good illustration. http://www.uk-air.net/seatpitch.htm

Therefore, big and bulky seats can feel more cramped than slimmer ones even if you have a larger seat pitch.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8668 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 19):
Even "Alize" class only has 36" of pitch at 9-abreast. This is according to seatguru... is that up to date?

It is correct. The new "Premium Voyageur" class is much better than the current Alizée class that should be soon revamped.

But the "B777-300 version 1" indicated on seatguru doesn't exist anymore.

in the "B777-300 version 3", the correct number of seats in Y is 200, not 198.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8014 times:

Quoting 76er (Reply 9):
Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
I
[quote=BigMac,reply=15]Let me first say that I've never flown Y on AF or BA. I just looked up the seat data on both AF (high density 77W) and BA (747/777) and this is what I found:
AF - seat pitch 32" - seat width 17"
BA - seat pitch 31" - seat width 17.5"
Looking at the data I would rather fly AF Y on their high density 77W than BA (747/747). So why is nobody complaining about BA as much as AF?

10-abreast on a 747 is much better than on a 777 where the seats are jammed together and aisles and armrests are narrower. You can't just look at seat width. The gap between each seat is also important as that also adds to overall passenger space and elbow room.

Quoting fca767 (Reply 10):
They don't treat you like cattle on Air France, they are a 4/5 star airline above British Airways in fact.

BA is 9-abreast in Y on 777s, not 10-abreast. Makes a big difference.

Quoting 76er (Reply 9):
Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
I love the 777

Even if it has 472 seats?

How does the number of seats affect it? All AF 77Ws are 10-abreast in Y with the same seat pitch. I avoid all AF 77Ws in Y class (and all other carriers with 10-abreast 777s).


User currently offlinebaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2026 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

I think we are seeing an interesting trend develop with 777s in general...the move to 10 abreast seating. The seats are the same width as in the 747-400 (17"w x 32" pitch), but because the T7s cabin is narrower, it seems more cramped.

I am not familiar with the reasoning behind AF moving to a high density configuration in the T7s, but my guess would be that they wanted to make the W class more attractive by affording significantly more room in W than Y (which is a no brainer on the T7 and less so on the A330/A340). The problem is that the price of W is often more than 2x a Y seat, and even at 17", I'd purchase two seats in Y before moving to W class; the meal is essentially the same and frankly, I'm not tall enough that the extra six inches of space in W class is worth the $$.

For me, having two seats (total 34" wide x 32" pitch is plenty and less money than W class). Why AF would go high density is a mystery to me, but what is not a mystery is the fact that AF/AZ and probably soon KL will offer a premium economy product (don't be surprised if DL does the same), so that the product is relatively common amongst the Atlantic members of SkyTeam (IMHO).

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

It's a nightmare configuration of T7.
Why is it more bearable on EK?
Because EK always makes stop in Dubai.
So meyflight, say, to Singapore is ca. 4.5 hours to Dubai and under 7 h. leg to Singapore.
AF flies long non-stops - and that makes all the diffence.

Anyway T7 in this shape must be avoided by any means.


25 KL577 : I don´t mind the food in economy, it´s all mediocre, I just want to have enough to drink. I flew DL last month (AMS-BOM) and like most other long-h
26 Post contains images PEET7G : I think you are pretty much spot on with this... that anything feels better because of the stop at DXB, and with that having some time to stretch out
27 sscaf001 : Alizé seats are configured with 3X3X3 abreast (not 2X4X2)
28 Post contains images pylon101 : I absolutely agree with all your points, including reg. AF. I just ask you: give Aeroflot a chance
29 Icarus75 : Things are in the right order for me now : I won't fly AF B777 anymore! It's a pity because I've always like service in Y, which has been fine all th
30 bestwestern : I dont think this is an AF problem. The 777 in a x10 abreast layout is impossibly cramped. Welcome to the modern world of aviation. Aeroflot is excell
31 Post contains images pylon101 : Really that bad? I've been living near DME. So I actually didn't go to SVO after opening. They tried hard. Hired hundreds of people to work out every
32 LY777 : Does someone have a pic of the Alizee class on the 77W?
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