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Will AB With OneWorld Kill RSW Service?  
User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

I wonder what the group thinks.

AB is increasing flights to MIA with both DUS and TXL daily n/s flights planned.
RSW has lost MUC, and DUS is down to a planned 3X weekly.
Will AA tell AB to go hub flow and kill the RSW service?
Seams to me that MIA will drain some of the RSW service, connectability will be available out of MIA and I expect AB to fly to DFW and ORD eventually providing feed to those hubs and draining a little more from the less than daily service.

Does this all together equate in an end to the Point to Point AB service?


Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5491 times:

I don't see AA telling AB what markets they can and cannot serve. However, I can understand AB pulling out if the demand is simply not there, or yields being too low.

RSW is awkwardly placed, because although there is a market in the area its only about 100-130 miles (as the crow flies) from TPA, MIA, FLL and MCO - it could just end up not working because of its geographical location, instead of weak demand/yields or as you put it AA telling AB to focus on MIA.

Cheers

MCO 2 BRS


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

The uniqueness of Ft. Myers is that there is a large amount of wealthy Germans who own homes in the area. As long as they are still flying, I don't see Air Berlin leaving.


a.
User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 1):
I don't see AA telling AB what markets they can and cannot serve. However, I can understand AB pulling out if the demand is simply not there, or yields being too low.

I would have agreed about that a year ago.
But DL tells AF and KL what destinations in the USA they can serve, and vice versa for the EU with AF. MP as a charter CANNOT chose where it flies without DL and AF permission!

The same applies within Star, the alliance members make lateral decisions on long haul route planning with the dominant airline having the most say UA for Star and AA for OW. That also means in the USA AB must abide by AA wishes. And after all what value does flights to RSW have to AA if flown from DUS? Makes more sense for the alliance to fly to the hub and increase hub flow for all.

In short, the agreement to let AB join OW did not come without strings attached. It was a desparation move by AB, as they are completely changing their business model to join the alliance. When LH moved to DUS it exposed a weakness in AB and they had to find a solution or get killed by an attacking LH, the alliance is a solution and within two years either AB will survive or be gone entirely.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

I expect AB to focus their opeartions soley in DUS and BBI (future Berlin airport) once they join oneworld. I expect them to become a real legacy carrier and ditch the whole lowcost image. BBI can be the hub for Eastern, Northern and Central europe and DUS for Western and Southern Europe.

User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 4):
I expect AB to focus their opeartions soley in DUS and BBI (future Berlin airport) once they join oneworld. I expect them to become a real legacy carrier and ditch the whole lowcost image. BBI can be the hub for Eastern, Northern and Central europe and DUS for Western and Southern Europe.

I think you are right and AA and BA agree.
Am not sure if they will feed Southern Europe from the USA... I see DUS competing against AMS/Skyteam for the north and LHR being to OneWorld what CDG is to Skyteam.


A great idea is to draw a map of the EU and mark the airline hubs and the stradegy by alliance comes clearly into view.
So Secondary is DUS=AMS=CPH and primary is LHR=CDG=FRA



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5070 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 3):

In short, the agreement to let AB join OW did not come without strings attached. It was a desparation move by AB, as they are completely changing their business model to join the alliance. When LH moved to DUS it exposed a weakness in AB and they had to find a solution or get killed by an attacking LH, the alliance is a solution and within two years either AB will survive or be gone entirely.

This is interesting - how exactly did they change their business model?


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 3):
I would have agreed about that a year ago.
But DL tells AF and KL what destinations in the USA they can serve, and vice versa for the EU with AF. MP as a charter CANNOT chose where it flies without DL and AF permission!

That's because they are allowed to! They have, by law, merged their trans-Atlantic operations.

AA and Air Berlin have yet to make such an agreement and AA has zero say. If, in the future, Air Berlin decides to join AA's merged trans-Atlantic alliance, which also includes BA, IB, RJ and AY, then AA can have say.



a.
User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4997 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Berlin decides to join AA's merged trans-Atlantic alliance, which also includes BA, IB, RJ and AY, then AA can have say.

So you think there will be no cooperation.
I don't live in that world. I don't care about what the las are the reality is the airlines will do as they need and AB will listen to AA and BA or simply DIE. Their eggs are in the OneWorld basket and they are not a founding member. If we for one moment believe that AA would agree for them to join without benefit to AA we are living in a dream world.
Yes AB can continue to fly to RSW and make that decision, they can also chose to throw in the towel to LH because AA will let them die avery lonely and painful death.

It is the golden rule ....... he who has the gold makes the rules. And AB has NIL gold anywhere. They are a distant second on the brink of collapse in Germany, and AA is a founding member and will tell AB how it will participate in the alliance. End of story.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4924 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 8):
So you think there will be no cooperation.
I don't live in that world. I don't care about what the las are the reality is the airlines will do as they need and AB will listen to AA and BA or simply DIE. Their eggs are in the OneWorld basket and they are not a founding member. If we for one moment believe that AA would agree for them to join without benefit to AA we are living in a dream world.
Yes AB can continue to fly to RSW and make that decision, they can also chose to throw in the towel to LH because AA will let them die avery lonely and painful death.

It is the golden rule ....... he who has the gold makes the rules. And AB has NIL gold anywhere. They are a distant second on the brink of collapse in Germany, and AA is a founding member and will tell AB how it will participate in the alliance. End of story.

If this is the way you feel, then why bother starting this thread? You posed a legitimate question in the opening topic, but it appears that you already have your mind made up about the respective outcome. I'm fairly confident that Hunold and his associates have done their homework on this. If AA so desperately want AB to concentrate on MIA, then AA better be prepared to upgauge equipment on MIA-RSW to supplement the existing RSW-DUS traffic.

I also have seen no indication from anywhere that AB is in such a dire financial position as you say... do you have any factual evidence to support this?

Cheers

MCO 2 BRS


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 8):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Berlin decides to join AA's merged trans-Atlantic alliance, which also includes BA, IB, RJ and AY, then AA can have say.

So you think there will be no cooperation.

Absolutely not, eventually I believe Air Berlin will join with AA and the others into trans-Atlantic ATI. But, until then, Air Berlin must act independent. You might live in a fantasyland where there is no oversight, but that's not reality. Airlines are a heavily regulated industry, and airlines do and will get caught when they engage in illegal antitrust behavior.

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 9):
If this is the way you feel, then why bother starting this thread? You posed a legitimate question in the opening topic, but it appears that you already have your mind made up about the respective outcome.

  

This is a pointless topic, apparently.



a.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4630 times:

No, I dont think it will affect RSW at all.

RSW is a unique market with only one European carrier. There is enough of a market for a few weekly flights in high season at minimum.

That isnt going to change just because AB is joining Oneworld.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23225 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Absolutely not, eventually I believe Air Berlin will join with AA and the others into trans-Atlantic ATI.

Let's assume that's true (and I'm with you - I think it is). Why would that affect RSW-DUS? We haven't seen LH, AF, or KL drop troves of US destinations, and I believe, as I think you do, that AA/BA will lead to an increase in the number of cities with service to LHR. If the route makes money, that helps everyone in the ATI.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting MCO2BRS (Reply 9):
If this is the way you feel, then why bother starting this thread? You posed a legitimate question in the opening topic, but it appears that you already have your mind made up about the respective outcome. I'm fairly confident that Hunold and his associates have done their homework on this. If AA so desperately want AB to concentrate on MIA, then AA better be prepared to upgauge equipment on MIA-RSW to supplement the existing RSW-DUS traffic.

Perhaps I came on a bit strong. Thats how I write. Sorry for being so pointed I am getting old and rude..

Reviewing the posts few have taken a position on whether MIA service will drain RSW and kill the product..
Your last line is a great point too. The ATR's are expensive and old!
I agree that AB has done its homework, but the bigger question is why did they completely change the model unless this is a move of desparation, and if so what chips do they have to play.

And are the B787 options something they want or are these simply for xfer to AA?

I believe AA is the 17,000lb gorilla and AB is the new kids on the block. The question is whether they will be allowed to maintain Point to Point if it indeed remains viable... So assuming the German Tour-Operators want it to stay can it remain viable in an alliance format, or will aircraft be better utilized on a hub flow pattern?



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineMacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4407 times:
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Quoting billreid (Reply 13):
I am getting old and rude..

The two do not always have to be joined. I'm much older than you and I still try to be polite.

Frankly, I doubt AA even cares where AB flies provided they do not compete on the route directly and AA can sell seats. RSW is never going to be a major AA market.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):

That may well be true, but the A330-200 only has 24 business class seats with 54" pitch and 271 coach seats with 30" pitch seats, according to Seat Guru. If I'm a wealthy German, I'm not flying in a seat with a 30" pitch. And Skytrax has recent conflicting accounts from MIA/LAX to DUS whether you have to pay for everything in coach such as soft drinks. So, I'm perplexed why it has lasted so long, unless German/European travel agencies sell these seats super cheap as a consolidator and the average European is willing to settle for this level of service for a really low fare.

I travel to Germany a lot (Berlin) and use Lufthansa often but LH's 31" pitch in some of its planes, especially 747 and A340-600, cause me to use other carriers if possible. I don't know if I am willing to fly AirBerlin to TXL from MIA this winter when it starts up.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2425 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 13):
The question is whether they will be allowed to maintain Point to Point if it indeed remains viable

You seem to have this impression that joining an alliance means an airline surrenders their corporate sovereignty. Whether AB servers RSW is 100% AB's decision. AA can request or advise, but that is all.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quoting Macsog6 (Reply 14):
RSW is never going to be a major AA market.

You are quite correct, as AA only operates to the ORD, DFW, and MIA hubs from RSW. No JFK or LAX here.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 3):
That also means in the USA AB must abide by AA wishes. And after all what value does flights to RSW have to AA if flown from DUS? Makes more sense for the alliance to fly to the hub and increase hub flow for all.

Not if another airlne, such as Condor, added a replacement RSW flight and took all/most the passengers



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7253 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 15):

That may well be true, but the A330-200 only has 24 business class seats with 54" pitch and 271 coach seats with 30" pitch seats, according to Seat Guru. If I'm a wealthy German, I'm not flying in a seat with a 30" pitch

That is true, however I think they might perfer a non-stop flight to RSW then having to connect in the US. International to domestic connections are not much fun.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineChopChop767 From Italy, joined Aug 2010, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4124 times:

While I don't think "a few wealthy Germans w/ homes in RSW", can make a route survive, the convenience of non-stop can most assuredly do just that!

There's been many times when I've had to connect for leisure vacation, via MIA to RSW even, via PHL and CLT to BDA, etc. Of course, loving to fly, it wasn't an issue for me; but if I had a family, small children, lots of bags, etc, and we're traveling 9 hours to get to my vacation, I would consider the nonstop were the fare not too high, and forgo the MIA connection.

I hope the route continues! Just my two cents  



this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
User currently offlinekrsw757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

My thoughts are that if AB did decide on stopping the flight they would end up losing more RSW bound passengers due to the fact that then they would just open it up to more competition, because now everyone heading to Ft. Myers has to transit through another city which in turn opens it up to any airline serving DUS to the US. I think the reason they have been able to make the route work so long is because they are the sole carrier on the route and its a lot more convenient for the Ft. Myers-German market. So unless AA was able to increase service by adding more MIA flights or adding a JFK flight to compensate for the loss of nonstop service and don't see AB gaining much by stopping the flight. I don't believe American Eagle has anymore equipment available to increase to RSW even if they wanted too.

User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 16):
You seem to have this impression that joining an alliance means an airline surrenders their corporate sovereignty. Whether AB servers RSW is 100% AB's decision. AA can request or advise, but that is all.

I for one do not believe that is how the world works, it is like telling your partner if you do something there will be a problem. Its your choice, but is it?

Quoting Humberside (Reply 18):
Not if another airlne, such as Condor, added a replacement RSW flight and took all/most the passengers

Condor will not return to RSW in the next couple of years short of a huge subsidy. Condor was not treated well when they left RSW and questioned the airlines smarts. I was told by a retired person from Condor who was responsible for the flights that the airport in no uncertain terms told them they couldn't leave because they were opening a new terminal. Well to say the least it did not end amicably. DE has re-entered Fla at FLL, and there is another thread where DE is considering TPA, PIE or SRQ. There has been no mention of RSW and given the LTU/AB product at RSW and the bad taste left in DE's mouth what is the chance of smoothing that memory out?

Quoting Macsog6 (Reply 14):
The two do not always have to be joined.

Very true, but I was speaking about me, and not you. You can be old and nice, I can be old and weird, what I is very stuck in my thoughts. It takes a strong argument to sway me..



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8458 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3986 times:
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FT. Myers to Germany from the RSW airport is a unique seasonal route for a point to point market. This type of service of little connecting value and largely unique to the airline flying it outside the OW alliance. IF AA placed its code on teh flight from RSW to DUS they might sell a handful of tickets. DUS to JFK & ORD would be better.

IF OW ever wanted to offer a connecting service via a hub, San Juan in conjunction with MIA would be the obvious places. What AB flies is like BA from LHR to Barbados or Bermuda.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

I personally think AB should ditch RSW and instead do double daily to MIA, with 1x daily DUS and 1x daily BBI. Those two hubs should be completely developed into a hub and spoke system on the par with FRA and MUC. Ditch the focus cities like NUE, CGN, HAJ, and MUC and completely centralize opeartions in two hubs, one for the east and one for the west. BBI should be company headquarters and 60% of the airlines opeartions should be focused there becaus ethe airport is new and has potential for alot of growth and expansion unlike DUS.

25 MHG : That´s exactly the point ! And as long as yields and loads are healthy i don´t see AB pulling out of RSW. AA won´t interfere in the RSW case. Next
26 Post contains images AAAL : You could have not said this any better. In addition, the same weathly Germans want business and it always goes out full. The yields are very healthy
27 JBAirwaysFan : As the crow flies is the key statement there. Doesn't make it an hour and a half drive from the RSW area to MIA.
28 billreid : Aren't you defeating your own position, AB wants feed over MIA on NA? I have suggested MIA feed to RSW weakens the DUS non-stop, and you provide info
29 krsw757 : If the route has been continuing to run so poorly, why then have they even bothered running the route for so long? This summer they increased the serv
30 miaintl : This summer MIA-DUS was increased to 5/6 weekly flights and i expect it to go daily year round once AB enters the alliance.
31 Humberside : That would mean ditching a huge part of the current operation, including two hubs in PMI and NUE. It would also make the recent deal with TUIFly to t
32 billreid : Agreed! This is what makes the change in their stratgy so mind boggling. Does a morph from LCC to Network leave them dangerously vunerable to LH pred
33 miaintl : I think the main reason AB is entering the alliance is to fight off LH and reconqure their DUS hub which was basically stollen by LH's massive operati
34 MAH4546 : How? Air Berlin is bigger than Lufthansa at DUS. Lufthansa has a nice boutique operation that has obviously been working, while Air Berlin has been a
35 billreid : I sure hope you are wrong. If they intend on going head to head with LH well that sounds like a masacre in the German making? Don't you think that LH
36 miaintl : I did not mean LH will leave MIA completely, only that they would not fly MIA-DUS anymore. VS can be considered a network carrier because it has lots
37 billreid : Do you really think they will throw in the towel that easy at DUS? I am not sure of the competitive response from LH, they could go double daily to s
38 miaintl : I think BMI would likely expand in the future and start adding destinations again. The cutbacks were only temporary and once the airline gets its fina
39 MAH4546 : No, it won't. The DUS long-haul flights actually have done quite well and are here to stay.
40 Humberside : There is Spanair and Air Europa in Spain competing with Iberia. Neither of them have as large a network than IB, but neither does VS against BA
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