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TWA A318: Cancelled.  
User currently offlineCritter592 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1457 times:

<
The Boeing family of new generation 737 aircraft would allow for fleet
consistency however, prices and more importantly, financing was prohibitive.


Airbus has a competitive aircraft in the 318/219/320/321 albeit not
consistent with present fleet configuration.

Essentially, the deciding factor is price and financing. In an effort to
secure the aircraft contract, Airbus offered some attractive financing that
Boeing wasn't unwilling to match.

As TWA has now been purchased by American Airlines, the Airbus aircraft
contract has been cancelled since that aircraft doesn't fit American's fleet
type either.>>

I recieved this as an email from a TWA Employee. This should answer all questions.

--CrItTeR

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRed Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

TWA is getting 717 already. btw, AA is gonna take over TWA, AA may not like acfts built by Airbus.

r panda


User currently offlineGOT From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 1912 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

Sad for Airbus, they need costumers when they introduce a new a/C on the market.

GOT



Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

It's no big surprise that TWA's order for the A318 has been cancelled by AA.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1230 times:

All right, A318 will survive anyway - with more headache for AI, though. BTW, the deciding factor is price and financing is quite interesting: I don't care if Airbus gets government support for better financing but I do care if Boeing can't get it and so loses sales. As an American taxpayer I think the US government should support one of the country biggest and advanced producers - it will pay back much more. Who cares if someone may call it "socialism" - it is a bad idea to keep everything 100% private, and, AFAIK, energy crisis in California shows it pretty well...

User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1217 times:


RIX,

As you probably know, the US government does indeed support Boeing.



User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1208 times:

All right, A318 will survive anyway

Hmmm.... don't be so sure.



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineBoeing747-400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1203 times:

Joni,

The main section of Boeing supported by the US Government is the Military part, not the Commerical part. The whole Airbus company is supported by the European government.


User currently offlineRedraider From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 531 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1197 times:

Did I miss something? Is this really news? I thought the cancellation happened a few months ago?


My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1191 times:

DeltaSFO,

all right, let me say "I hope so".

Joni,

please don't play with the words. I'm not talking about government support in general but only in financing during sales. If you know something about this for Boeing then please tell this to everybody providing the source. Otherwise you'd better stay silent if you have nothing positive to say.


User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Funny that the US Government won't really help underwrite orders for US aircraft, but will gladly underwrite orders for regionals who replace props with jets...

interesting note is that at present, no US companies are manufacturing regional jets!

how's that for a kicker?


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3394 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1167 times:

How many A318's did TWA have on order?

User currently offlineYoungDon From United States of America, joined May 2001, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1142 times:

Flight152,
If I'm not mistaken, TWA had 50 on order with 50 options.

I do think the A318 will survive, and it probably will net more orders than the 717 in the long run because of fleet commonality with the rest of the A320 family. I'm expecting big orders from Swissair, US Airways, and Northwest, and maybe even United.

Don


User currently offlineAlaskaMVP From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1137 times:

>As an American taxpayer I think the US government
> should support one of the country biggest and >
> advanced producers - it will pay back much more.
> Who cares if someone may call it "socialism" - it is a
> bad idea to keep everything 100% private, and,
> AFAIK, energy crisis in California shows it pretty well...

The energy crisis in California shows the dangers of government intervention. The government fixed the price Power Companies could sell power at (while giving rate payers a 10% rate cut), and let the price they paid for power rise freely.

When rising energy prices started to force power companies under this half baked system into bankruptcy, no power producer outside of the state is stupid enough to sell them power for less than a 10x markup, because they all know they'll never get paid more than pennies on the dollar in bankruptcy court. Governer Dumass, I mean Davis, has already tried to strong arm out of state energy companies (that are keeping his industry alive) into write downs. Meanwhile CA consumers continue to consume power merrily at high rates because their prices remain cheap...

RIX, if you truly are a U.S taxpayer, you should know that you hardly live in a "100% private" world. Half of U.S. GNP is already spent by federal, state & local government, and that percentage is going up, not down. If you want to support Boeing, write them a check yourself, don't force me to pay at the point of a gun (which is what taxation is). Subsidies aside, Boeing isn't having trouble competing, now that they fixed their manufacturing processes (thanks to Airbus's competition).

Don't get me wrong, I love Boeing & the planes they make, but no corporation in the U.S. is made better by giving them handouts, witness Amtrak!


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11274 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1107 times:

"I do think the A318 will survive, and it probably will net more orders than the 717 in the long run because of fleet commonality with the rest of the A320 family."

Hmm. Commonality doesn't seem to do much for the 737-600. I think that the market for a heavy 100 seater just isn't that great right now. Now that TWA's order has been closed, the 318 is in big trouble. Fortunately for Airbus, most of the work on it had already been done when the other 320s were designed, and development costs were low. But, right now, it looks like even the 380 is going to outsell the 318.

BTW, an AA buyout of TW might be the best thing that ever happened to the 717 program. Remember those 75 F100s? They're going to need replacement someday...



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User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6287 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1080 times:

Let's not forget the 50 F.28-0100s that will probably end up in AAs fleet from US. Never mind that the UA-US merger won't happen, they will be sold to someone. No other airline can take them, sadly AA is the only major operator of the F100. I stated in a different post that AA can only replace them with 717s. The A318, although a great airplane, is not the same as a 717. The A318 is designed for mid-range routes with low load factors. The 717 can operate 150 mile routes as well as 1000 mile routes profitably with few passengers. I think the A318 will survive just fine for the 1000 to 2000 mile routes that do not justify 150 seat aircraft. There is enough market for both.

PS : AA likes the Airbus just fine. Not a choice of manufacturer, rather a choice of fleet commomality. An airline must choose.

Just my opinion, Disagreements respected.
:D



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1075 times:

<< BTW, an AA buyout of TW might be the best thing that ever happened to the 717 program. Remember those 75 F100s? >>


Just to bring you up to speed: AA cancelled TWA's B717 order too. Eventually, the B737-800 will be the smallest aircraft in AA's mainline fleet.


User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1075 times:

People, remember that AA operates quite a number of A300-600s, so to say that Airbus types would not fit into the AA fleet is technically incorrect.

Yes, I agree that the A318 is substantially different from the A300.



buhh bye
User currently offlineBoeing747-400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1074 times:

PHX Flyer,

AA is going to take around 20 717s I think out of the TWA order.

Lymanm,

AA recently order 15 767-300ERs to phase out the rest of the Airbus A300s. Besides, the A300 doesn't have any commonality with new Airbus cockpits today, so AA is really not likely to order any Airbus at all.


User currently offlineAa737 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 849 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1063 times:

This is somewhat off topic, but relates to the post above. Instead of replaceing the A300s with 767s I believe AA ordered more 767s so replace the A300s over the atlantic, but the A300s will stay in the AA fleet flying around the carribean where it is best suited.

User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1028 times:

The B767 order is mostly for replacing the B767s currently being operated by TWA which don't use the same engine as AA's B767s. A few will be used to replace the A300s being used by AA on the trans-Atlantic routes as Aa737 has pointed out.

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1024 times:

Absolutely right, AA will only replace the Atlantic-ops A300s with new B763s. AA will continue to operate the A300 on Latin America flights.

A318: I really think that aircraft will get more orders than many others out there. There are already potent customers, including British Airways, Air France, America West, Air China and Frontier. And I expect many others to follow who already operate the A320 family. United, Northwest, Swissair, US Airways (if they survive), Iberia, Air Canada just to name some. The A318's higher operation costs compared to the B717 are of no interest if you already operate a large A32X fleet.
And there are many B737 classics (especially -500s!) that have to be replaced one day...

Don't compare possible A318 sale problems with the B736's fate. There might be other reasons why the B736 doesn't sell...Boeing's sale tactics for example: think of Frontier who wanted B736s but Boeing wanted them to order -700s, result is known...

Regards
Udo


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1010 times:

The A318 was selling well because Airbus and P&W were too eager to discount the aircraft and the new PW6000 engines. If weren't for those heavy discounts, the A318 would just be like the B736: not many would want an over-designed, over-capable, over-weight airplane. In the US, there are very few trans-continental routes that need 100-seat aircraft. If I don't have needs for trans-continental capabilities, the extra range the A318 or B736 can offer over the B717 is meaningless. Then, why do I want an aircraft that will carry 40% extra fuel than the B717? Anyhow, the A320 family itself has been very successful, so Airbus doesn't need the A318 to be a spectacular seller. It's just additional business for Airbus, and so is the B736 for Boeing. OTOH, the B717 is in a totally different situation. If Boeing can't get new orders, then the future of the B717 is extremely bleak.

User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Expect Delta to place a relatively large order for the 736 and 73G once the economy gets a little better and the labour situation is under control. The 732s they have are getting expensive to operate, and they will need those planes on the Express routes.

Jeff


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11274 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 974 times:

You know Udo, it's been a long time since I've put you in your place.  Big grin j/k

"The A318's higher operation costs compared to the B717 are of no interest if you already operate a large A32X fleet"

I beg to differ. The 318's operating costs will most likely be much higher than the 717. You are correct if the fleet is going to be very small. BUT, if the fleet is over 50 planes (iirc, the magic number Stephen Wolf cited for fleet savings), the 717 bests the 318 even when you have other 320 series.


"Don't compare possible A318 sale problems with the B736's fate. There might be other reasons why the B736 doesn't sell..."

Umm, you're REALLY reaching on this one. 318 and 736 are the same market. Simple as that. Therefore, they are comparable. Boeing has not been able to sell the 736 to airlines with large 737NG fleets. Not even DL, AA, and CO. Why not? Majors don't want a heavy 100 seater.

BTW, one last note: While I could possibly see UA getting them for thin long routes like SFO-MHT or IAD-SMF, US has no use for them at all with their route structure at this point. You simply would be throwing money away by using a "Fat 100" on BOS-ITH or HSV-CLT.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
25 AKelley728 : DeltAirlines: If you look at the new contract for Delta Pilots and the wage scales for their different aircraft you will see a line that says 737-700
26 RayChuang : I think that both UA and NW are seriously looking at buying the A318 once the economy improves. UA will buy the plane to finally rid themselves of the
27 Post contains images RIX : Well, saying "AFAIK" I assumed I might be wrong... the idea was not to keep things "too private" for its own sake. I never said "we live in a 100% pri
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