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Would DL Have Benefited From The 757-300?  
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11124 times:

I know as the hold saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

DL opted for the 763 (domestic) for their large domestic markets. With the 757-300 having a very similar seating capacity, albeit the 763 beating it out by about 39 total seats, why did they not jump on the 753 when they could? I can only imagine, a large amount of the route that the 76D currently flies on would do fine with the 753.

Cost wise, how different are the trip costs for both types?

Edit: Quick research I should have done before posting. When did DL actually start taking delivery of their 763s? I know most are leased but not sure if they owned them at one point and leased them back or this was the case all along.

[Edited 2010-08-21 19:26:50]


What gets measured gets done.
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11108 times:

Maybe because DL ordered & operated the B763 years before the B753 became available?

Interestingly enough, the B753 DL acquired from NW are still operating largely on flights to/from DTW & MSP.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
When did DL actually start taking delivery of their 763s?

In 1986 -- about a decade before the B753 became available.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
I know most are leased but not sure if they owned them at one point and leased them back or this was the case all along.

I'm not trying to come across as a smart-ass, but why does this really matter? Leasing is largely a financing option... aircraft that are outright owned are also financed and/or used as collateral to obtain other financing. In the USA, airlines rarely use leasing for/as short-term needs.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10899 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Edit: Quick research I should have done before posting. When did DL actually start taking delivery of their 763s? I know most are leased but not sure if they owned them at one point and leased them back or this was the case all along.

All are leased save the 4 ETOPS/PW birds which are owned.



yep.
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 510 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10776 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Cost wise, how different are the trip costs for both types?

I wish I could remember the stats that NW used when they replaced the DC-10-40 fleet (domestic birds with 298 seats if I remember correctly) with the 753. There was a combined fleet announcement that included the purchase ofthe A330 fleet to replace the DC-10-30's, several A319s and two 747-400's and NW made available the statistics like: Why the 753 over the 767 and why the A330 over the 777.....I am sure those numbers are floating around somewhere and I will try to dig them up.

The operating economics of the 753 were so much better than the DC-10-40 that NW decided that the 224 or 228 seat capacity (cant remember exactly what the original 753 capacity was) on the 753 was worth the capacity reduction from 298 on the DC-10-40. I know that this doesnt address the B763 vs. B753 question but I thought it was relevant.

Like I said, I'll do some digging.........I miss the DC-10!



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10762 times:

I personally think the 753 would have made the perfect replacement for DL's 762s, as the 753 holds more passengers at a much lower CASM.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10521 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 2):
I'm not trying to come across as a smart-ass, but why does this really matter? Leasing is largely a financing option... aircraft that are outright owned are also financed and/or used as collateral to obtain other financing. In the USA, airlines rarely use leasing for/as short-term needs.

You are coming off as one   The point I was getting at was if they were in fact lease backs, then I would have liked to know when DL originally purchased them; not lease dates.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 2):
In 1986

Hmm. Had no idea the started taking delivery of the non ERs that early.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
I personally think the 753 would have made the perfect replacement for DL's 762s, as the 753 holds more passengers at a much lower CASM.

I think timing is what ultimately killed the 753 for many airlines unfortunately.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1778 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9118 times:

It is without a doubt the most miserable aircraft to work on and for passengers to fly on for more than an hour or two. There is no weight in the tail and even in moderate turbulence you get banged all over the skies. The flight attendants refer to the 753 as "Satan's Bowling Alley." We joke that it was like the Boeing engineers all got together over a few beers one night and said "Let's design an airplane that passengers, pilots and flight attendants will all loathe." Thus came the 753. Deplaning that aiplane can take 45 minutes when it is full and where the fuselgage narrows towards the back you can't even drag a roller board bag down the aisle. Economics or not it is not a comfortable nor is it a passenger-pleasing aircraft.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineSiouxATC From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
It is without a doubt the most miserable aircraft to work on and for passengers to fly on for more than an hour or two. There is no weight in the tail and even in moderate turbulence you get banged all over the skies. The flight attendants refer to the 753 as "Satan's Bowling Alley." We joke that it was like the Boeing engineers all got together over a few beers one night and said "Let's design an airplane that passengers, pilots and flight attendants will all loathe." Thus came the 753. Deplaning that aiplane can take 45 minutes when it is full and where the fuselgage narrows towards the back you can't even drag a roller board bag down the aisle. Economics or not it is not a comfortable nor is it a passenger-pleasing aircraft.

I've flown the 753 countless times on NW and now DL. I always go out of my way to book the -300 if it is possible. I love flying on it as a pax. Great airplane.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8348 times:

Boeing missed out by not offering the 757-300 sooner, they probably could have won some more orders from AA, DL, UA and TWA. There's no better way to transport 200+ passengers (from a CASM perspective) to Florida.

For DL;

ATL-Florida, Las Vegas, Cancun, California

AA;

JFK/MIA-Caribbean

UA;

West Coast-Hawaii

TWA;

JFK-Caribbean, JFK-West Coast



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
It is without a doubt the most miserable aircraft to work on and for passengers to fly on for more than an hour or two.

It's also a PITA to work from a ramp perspective, though some things are an improvement over the "regular" 757's.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 8):
've flown the 753 countless times on NW and now DL. I always go out of my way to book the -300 if it is possible. I love flying on it as a pax. Great airplane.

Seriously, or was this dry wit that I'm missing?

At NW, the original idea communicated to us was to replace the domestic flying that DC10's were doing. The idea being that you could have WB capacity but still use NB infrastructure (no cans, regular gates, etc.), and the flexibility to go between a 757-200 & -300 as needed. Obviously, economics like seat costs, played in as well..



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7604 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
a large amount of the route that the 76D currently flies on would do fine with the 753.

To nitpick, in DL phraseology the 76D is actually the lie-flat 767-400ER.

The 76Q is the domestic-only 763A and the 76P is the ETOPS 763A.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
"Let's design an airplane that passengers, pilots and flight attendants will all loathe."

I have a buddy that's a PMNW 757 driver and he always really likes flying the 757-300. Says it handles nicely and has good performance with the larger PW2040 motors.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
It is without a doubt the most miserable aircraft to work on and for passengers to fly on for more than an hour or two. There is no weight in the tail and even in moderate turbulence you get banged all over the skies. The flight attendants refer to the 753 as "Satan's Bowling Alley." We joke that it was like the Boeing engineers all got together over a few beers one night and said "Let's design an airplane that passengers, pilots and flight attendants will all loathe." Thus came the 753. Deplaning that aiplane can take 45 minutes when it is full and where the fuselgage narrows towards the back you can't even drag a roller board bag down the aisle. Economics or not it is not a comfortable nor is it a passenger-pleasing aircraft.

Great post DTWPurser. I have flown the 752 as a pilot and liked it (it's my favorite Boeing to fly.) I have not flown the 753 as a pilot but as a passenger, especially in the back, I think you nailed it with the "Satan's Bowling Alley" comment. Truly the most uncomfortable, loathsome, odious ride (especially in turbulence) I have ever experienced, every single time I have been on it. My wife (a Flight Attendant) and I flew in the second to last row on one from MSP to SEA as paying pax a couple of years ago, and both of us thought the ride was so unpleasant that we vowed we would never, ever pay for that experience ever again if there was ANY alternative available, and we haven't. Just ghastly.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 8):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
It is without a doubt the most miserable aircraft to work on and for passengers to fly on for more than an hour or two. There is no weight in the tail and even in moderate turbulence you get banged all over the skies. The flight attendants refer to the 753 as "Satan's Bowling Alley." We joke that it was like the Boeing engineers all got together over a few beers one night and said "Let's design an airplane that passengers, pilots and flight attendants will all loathe." Thus came the 753. Deplaning that aiplane can take 45 minutes when it is full and where the fuselgage narrows towards the back you can't even drag a roller board bag down the aisle. Economics or not it is not a comfortable nor is it a passenger-pleasing aircraft.

I've flown the 753 countless times on NW and now DL. I always go out of my way to book the -300 if it is possible. I love flying on it as a pax. Great airplane.

Seriously? I think you are being serious, but I can't imagine how the airplane distinguishes itself as being a "great airplane" from a passenger's perspective.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 10):
Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 8):
've flown the 753 countless times on NW and now DL. I always go out of my way to book the -300 if it is possible. I love flying on it as a pax. Great airplane.


Seriously, or was this dry wit that I'm missing?

I had the same question.   


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6634 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Boeing missed out by not offering the 757-300 sooner, they probably could have won some more orders from AA, DL, UA and TWA. There's no better way to transport 200+ passengers (from a CASM perspective) to Florida.

        

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 10):

It's also a PITA to work from a ramp perspective, though some things are an improvement over the "regular" 757's.

I always thought it was prefered becasue of the sliding carpet system.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 11):
a large amount of the route that the 76D currently flies on would do fine with the 753.

To nitpick, in DL phraseology the 76D is actually the lie-flat 767-400ER.

The 76Q is the domestic-only 763A and the 76P is the ETOPS 763A.

Not nitpicking. Thanks, I forget all the internal codes.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6587 times:
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We routinely see them here in SEA, albeit abit less since most of our domestic trips went away in favour of more international in recent times. I think for all the years we've been operating the 753, I would've prefered the 767, at least from a short-haul standpoint. If DL decides to reconfigure the galley's to accommodate the the Atlas galley equipment, then we're in trouble. We need wider aisles that I don't think the 757 is capable of giving. And the Delta carts are way too heavy and too fat for our 757's.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
Deplaning that aiplane can take 45 minutes when it is full and where the fuselgage narrows towards the back you can't even drag a roller board bag down the aisle

You should see it when we land in HNL. And I love the DL policy of putting our wheelchair/aislechair pax all the was back at row 47. I especially look forward to it at 5:30am on the return

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
Seriously? I think you are being serious, but I can't imagine how the airplane distinguishes itself as being a "great airplane" from a passenger's perspective.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 10):
Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 8):
've flown the 753 countless times on NW and now DL. I always go out of my way to book the -300 if it is possible. I love flying on it as a pax. Great airplane.


Seriously, or was this dry wit that I'm missing?

I had the same question.

This is drugs, this your brain on drugs, any questions?



Made from jets!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6491 times:

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 8):
I've flown the 753 countless times on NW and now DL. I always go out of my way to book the -300 if it is possible. I love flying on it as a pax. Great airplane.

There can't be many people who would prefer a 757 to a 767, if only because of the 767's 2-3-2 Y class seating and resulting much lower 1 in 7 chance of winding up in a middle seat, the best of all widebodies, vs. 1 in 3 on a 757. And deplaning takes ages from the rear of a full 753 with only one aisle. Boarding probably also slower. Could affect turnaround times.


User currently offlinelat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

How did the Super DC-8 behave under the same weather circumstances. Any FA work both? Or do passengers remember the DC-8 70s as a comparison?

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6111 times:

Quoting lat41 (Reply 16):
How did the Super DC-8 behave under the same weather circumstances. Any FA work both? Or do passengers remember the DC-8 70s as a comparison?

I only flew as a passenger on a couple of -70 series DC-8s, but I was at the front, not the back on those. But I flew on dozens of stretched DC-8-61s and -63s and they rode turbulence well, although there was probably a little more movement at the rear than on other DC-8 models.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6082 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Boarding probably also slower. Could affect turnaround times.

That's a myth i've only seen here. I flown on CO's 753s many times. Most recently CLE-LAX. We were pretty much full save 3 or 4 middles seats and 1 seat in F. Boarding took no longer than normal.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineN809FR From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 182 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6038 times:

I've never been a fan of flying in the 757 in general. It takes absolutely way too long to deplane even a 752, I can't imagine how much worse a 753 would be. That said, it is in my opinion one of the best looking planes out there. We'll see if I feel any different when I fly a 752 in two weeks, it has been a while.

User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5615 times:

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 4):
I wish I could remember the stats that NW used when they replaced the DC-10-40 fleet (domestic birds with 298 seats if I remember correctly) with the 753... The operating economics of the 753 were so much better than the DC-10-40 that NW decided that the 224 or 228 seat capacity (cant remember exactly what the original 753 capacity was) on the 753 was worth the capacity reduction from 298 on the DC-10-40.

The B753 order was actually a modification of an outstanding B752 order placed in the late 1980s; the aircraft were intended to bridge capacity between the B752 and DC-10. Although the DC-10-40 were to be retired, a near-equal number of DC-10-30 were to be used for domestic services (as A333 replaced them across the Atlantic). Alas, the operating & revenue environment dramatically changed during the 2000s and the B753 itself proved to be too much airplane for NW and was ultimately dumped on flights to Hawaii (as many as 8 daily at one point).



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 13):
I always thought it was prefered becasue of the sliding carpet system.

Not for me, though I was thinking about the cabin cleaning part when I wrote that. Not many places in aviation more lonely than being in the back row of a 753 getting ready to do seat pockets...  



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineericaasen From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 13):

I always thought it was prefered becasue of the sliding carpet system.

Yeah, the magic carpet is AWESOME! I wish every plane had one.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 21):
Not for me, though I was thinking about the cabin cleaning part when I wrote that. Not many places in aviation more lonely than being in the back row of a 753 getting ready to do seat pockets...

Yeah, that would suck. I only had to groom one 757, a 200, before grooming got outsourced, but just doing first sucked. And that was a turn around, I couldn't imagine an overnight.


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 794 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting lat41 (Reply 16):
How did the Super DC-8 behave under the same weather circumstances. Any FA work both? Or do passengers remember the DC-8 70s as a comparison?




The -8 wasn't as bad because the fuselage flexed a lot more than a 757 and absorbed the impact. For that matter the wings did too. The 757 is a great airplane but ride quality is not it's strongest suite. This is one reason why it is so rough in the back but it should also be noted that it is rough in the cockpit too, though not as bad as the tail. In rough air the cockpit tends to bounce rather than sway. I've only flown in the forward part of the stretch -8's but you could see the rest of the airplane flexing around in chop. I've been told that from the rear galley in really rough air the cockpit door would disappear behind the bulkhead from all the flexing around.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 2):
In 1986 -- about a decade before the B753 became available.

How many non ER does DL operate. As to my understanding they are in the process of phasing them out and using ERs on domestic routes instead.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
25 deltal1011man : Nope. They have 15 birds going right now. 11 76Q and 4 76Ps. The plan though is to bring 3 76Qs back from VCV/MZJ bring the fleet back up to 18. The
26 FlyCaledonian : If it had been available in the mid-1990s I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen an order from BA too!
27 par13del : I personally prefer the bounce over the sway, I have noticied that difference on a/c other than the 757, whether it was pilots use of rudder or simpl
28 deltal1011man : Its because the 753 is so long. 321-146ft 739-138ft 2in 752-155ft 3in 753-178ft 7in So as you can see the 753 is 30-40ft longer than most other aircr
29 mayor : I think it depends on where the jetway is positioned....if at the front door, all the Y pax must go thru F to deplane......if positioned overwing (ri
30 msp747 : Maybe I haven't sat far enough back, but I've always enjoyed my flights on the 753. I've logged a number of MSP-SEA and MSP-LAS flights without ever n
31 1337Delta764 : Perhaps it could be because the 753 has a 737NG-style interior, however, I could be wrong.
32 N809FR : I've only flown the 752 once when they used the L2 door to deplane, and that was in DEN coming in from MIA on AA. That was by far the quickest I've e
33 FlyASAGuy2005 : Of all the times i've flown on the 757 (and it's a ton) only time I can remember getting off/on through L1 was up in LGA at DL's gate to the far end
34 N809FR : In all fairness, I've yet to fly a DL 757, all of my experiences are on CO, UA, US, and AA. I'll be flying two DL 75's on the 6th of September, so we
35 FlyASAGuy2005 : 98% sure you'll begoing through L2. The obsolute only exception for DL is if the gate isn't telescoping or doesn't come out far enough to reach L2.
36 ImperialEagle : I completely agree! The streched -8's could be real tail-waggers in a stiff cross-wind, other than that they handled most turbulence well IMO.
37 exFWAOONW : Was on a UA stretch-8 OFD-SFO up front and the F/A announced the meal service was xld on this flight. We asked why and she opened the curtain and we
38 mayor : Never rode in the rear of one of DL's stretch eights, but I have heard stories from people that say sometimes the fuselage would get twisted enough t
39 FlyASAGuy2005 : USe to be 24. I'm guessing they got out of the leases on those.
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