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Boeing 737-900ER Probably Not Up To Par After 2015  
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36571 times:

Looking at new designs coming available in a few years in the >200 seat narrowbody segment, I think Boeing will have a hard job marketing the 737-900ER, even in a re-engined version.

   A re-engined 739 will probably be compromised on BPR / sfc because of the 737's wing configuration.
   Order intake for the 737-900ER is low sofar, even from 737NG customers. 252 Sold (178 for Lion Air)
   The 737 does not have the container/pallet capability of it's competitors.
   Airlines replacing 757s, 762, A300s, A310 will likely look for a type that will be in long term production.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/739A321C939MS21.jpg?t=1282562633

It seems the 737 is not only facing pressure from below (CSeries, Superjet, Embaer) but also from above. The larger NB's will likely become an important market segment; intra Asia, domestic US and in high volume European markets. Airlines that will replace their A320 and 737-800s will look for growth potential.

I think these market developments will strengthen the business case for an all new 737 replacement instead of a 737 re-engining program from Boeing.

250 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36507 times:

It might get really hurt from an A321 NEO fitted with sharklets. An offering such as this would give the 321 an East Coast - Western Europe capability that it really lacks now. Also direct service into a lot of Latin American destinations from Canada/USA that are currently the preserve of 757/767s.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4659 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36501 times:

This is not news, of course it wont be, but which one of those four airplanes had a development cost that was a fraction of the others?

Rather than replacing it and then seeing the competitions response, now the competitions products are out there and a more competitive response can be prepared by Boeing. It will be interesting to see what they come up with but I think these findings are consistent with Boeings internal findings.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36474 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Order intake for the 737-900ER is low sofar, even from 737NG customers. 252 Sold (178 for Lion Air)

Many airlines such as CO have generic orders for 737s listed with Boeing, they can convert them to any model. CO has had 73Gs on the order books with Boeing for a long time, yet it's been years since they've taken delivery of a 73G. They convert their orders for 737-800s or 737-900ERs when Boeing needs to know for production, AA is in a similar position although to date they have yet convert any of their 737 orders to 737-900ERs (although they've mentioned they will).

Considering UA, AA and DL have 757-200 fleets totaling nearly 400 757-200s mostly in domestic service that will need to replaced in the next ten years I think Boeing has a big leg up on competition in this market. AA, DL and soon UA have huge 737NG fleets, the 737-900ER is a natural progression for these carriers.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36290 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Considering UA, AA and DL have 757-200 fleets totaling nearly 400 757-200s mostly in domestic service that will need to replaced in the next ten years I think Boeing has a big leg up on competition in this market.

I think Airbus is marketing a A321 NEO (probably LeapX) to United and Delta. Both have more Airbus NB's in their fleet then 737NG's. I'm not sure what Boeing is proposing them, probably the 737-900ER. I think we might soon know the outcome of these discussions.


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36225 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
It might get really hurt from an A321 NEO fitted with sharklets. An offering such as this would give the 321 an East Coast - Western Europe capability that it really lacks now.

A321 NEO will not be a suitable plane for TATL. Its range/payload is still to short. However, it would be great for transcontinental flights


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6841 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36183 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Order intake for the 737-900ER is low sofar, even from 737NG customers. 252 Sold (178 for Lion Air)

To which, there are grave concerns that Lion will not be able to take the 178 they ordered.
The fuel burn of the 739ER currently is, well, very nice when comparing with the A321 (CFM56-5Bs) on most mission profiles (off my head, I seem to recall an average of 7.5-10% savings across most profiles). But, again, fuel burn is only a part of the equation.

Now, the so-called "killer" for the 739ER in my opinion will not be from A321NEO, or the other similarly sized competition, but, from the "baseline model" of the next generation of narrowbodies... from which a "stretched" derivative's performance can be "estimated"... Plus, also, from the fact that the 739ER has little appeal overall currently, and I know a few carriers eyeing the 739ERs are basically "waiting for Lion Air to go down" so that they can snap up those frames.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 36144 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 4):
I think Airbus is marketing a A321 NEO (probably LeapX) to United and Delta. Both have more Airbus NB's in their fleet then 737NG's.

Actually UA (post merger) will have significantly more 737NGs than Airbus:

126 737-800s, 36 737-700s, 12 737-900, 30 737-900ER = 204 + 41 firm orders

55 A319, 97 A320 = 152 (no orders)



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCM767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 35838 times:

Airbus is also facing pressure to go for a new airplane:

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...d76a7-fdd6-46a3-9522-1b215df4d3c7&

"Rolls-Royce Balks At A320 Re-Engine Plan
Engine Maker Thinks Airbus Should Build An Entirely New Aircraft"



But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 35750 times:

Quoting CM767 (Reply 8):
Airbus is also facing pressure to go for a new airplane:

They are. E.g. AF/KL is pressuring them to go further then a simple reengining. The article you quote is IMO basicly a sulky reaction of RR for not being in the A320 re-engining game. Airbus bypassed them in favor of the PW GTF and GE LeapX.. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4903714/

If the GTF works I think the MS21-400 might become an interresting new player. Key systems are bought from western suppliers, it is significant bigger then A321 and 737-900ER and the Russian know a thing or two about building aircraft. If they can involve existing asian and western parties for after sales support this could become a successful Tu154 /Tu204 replacement.



User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 hours ago) and read 35284 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 9):
If the GTF works I think the MS21-400 might become an interresting new player. Key systems are bought from western suppliers, it is significant bigger then A321 and 737-900ER and the Russian know a thing or two about building aircraft. If they can involve existing asian and western parties for after sales support this could become a successful Tu154 /Tu204 replacement.

Considering the effort you go through to make these "pictures" you could at least be more accurate, especially with the MS21-400 and C939. Honestly, why not say "Probably Not Up To Par After 2014" or "2013" because those dates are just as accurate as your "2015" date that you pulled out of a hat.

Seriously, you know that the smaller base models are not even going to be certified until 2016... at the very earliest. In reality, they will be delayed for at least a couple of years (you just have to look at the progress of their current civil programmes in their countries... heck, just look at A and B's!) And then they have to certify the next models... the C929 and the MS21-300 - so by the time they get around to certifying the MS21-400 and C939 it will be realistically around 2020... again, at the very earliest (and those variants may never even get built).

Add in that they would have their hands full with domestic deliveries and it is obvious that to pit the C939 and MS21-400 as possible 737-900ER replacements/competitors is not realistic... so why pretend otherwise when you know better?



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 hours ago) and read 35243 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
It might get really hurt from an A321 NEO fitted with sharklets. An offering such as this would give the 321 an East Coast - Western Europe

That's only if your definition of Western Europe consists of Ireland.

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
The 737 does not have the container/pallet capability of it's competitors.

Quite a few airlines don't use that anyway, so it is far from a universal selling point.

Quoting keesje (Reply 4):
I think Airbus is marketing a A321 NEO (probably LeapX) to United and Delta. Both have more Airbus NB's in their fleet then 737NG's.

They have enough of everything that commonality is not a big deal.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 hours ago) and read 35208 times:

Quoting CM767 (Reply 8):
"Rolls-Royce Balks At A320 Re-Engine Plan
Engine Maker Thinks Airbus Should Build An Entirely New Aircraft"

An entire new aircraft build today would not look much different then todays A320 so no need for it now. If RR would come up with an open rotor it would be a completely different situation though..



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2687 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 35134 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 10):
Considering the effort you go through to make these "pictures" you could at least be more accurate, especially with the MS21-400 and C939. Honestly, why not say "Probably Not Up To Par After 2014" or "2013" because those dates are just as accurate as your "2015" date that you pulled out of a hat.

Well put. Most of the OP's argument appears based on the assumption that the Chinese can create a competitive frame just because they have a ton of cash and a plan. It also assumes a static 739ER frame with no incremental developments.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 6):
I know a few carriers eyeing the 739ERs are basically "waiting for Lion Air to go down" so that they can snap up those frames.

Intriguing. I know Virgin Blue was very interested but baulked when Boeing wouldn't budge on price.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 35060 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 10):
Considering the effort you go through to make these "pictures" you could at least be more accurate, especially with the MS21-400 and C939. Honestly, why not say "Probably Not Up To Par After 2014" or "2013" because those dates are just as accurate as your "2015" date that you pulled out of a hat.

Planemaker you should know better. You know as well as I do that new aircraft have an impact long before they enter service. Look at the 787, it took hundreds of orders out of it's segment, years, years before it entered service. Airlines buy new fleet and use their existing aircraft until they get it.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 10):
Add in that they would have their hands full with domestic deliveries and it is obvious that to pit the C939 and MS21-400 as possible 737-900ER replacements/competitors is not realistic... so why pretend otherwise when you know better?

Planemaker, considering how much you know about the market you should know the Russian and Chinese market are flooded with Airbus and Boeing aircraft. A320 are even produced locally. Apart from that e.g. the MS21 got an export contract already and Chinese ambitions also go further then China, as you know.



User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 35013 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 6):
Now, the so-called "killer" for the 739ER in my opinion will not be from A321NEO, or the other similarly sized competition, but, from the "baseline model" of the next generation of narrowbodies... from which a "stretched" derivative's performance can be "estimated"... Plus, also, from the fact that the 739ER has little appeal overall currently, and I know a few carriers eyeing the 739ERs are basically "waiting for Lion Air to go down" so that they can snap up those frames.

The 739ER is a derivative of the base 737, whatever Boeing decides to do with the base a/c - new build or re-engine - will be done for the 739ER, no different than where Airbus is with its A32X a/c, they are both families.

Funny how the niche 757 market just keeps getting more and more important, at least in the US. The problem is that US carriers had already purchased so many 757-200's that the 739ER as a replacement has a hill to climb since most a/c are not yet ready to be retired.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 34395 times:

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 5):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
It might get really hurt from an A321 NEO fitted with sharklets. An offering such as this would give the 321 an East Coast - Western Europe capability that it really lacks now.

A321 NEO will not be a suitable plane for TATL. Its range/payload is still to short. However, it would be great for transcontinental flights
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
It might get really hurt from an A321 NEO fitted with sharklets. An offering such as this would give the 321 an East Coast - Western Europe

That's only if your definition of Western Europe consists of Ireland.

Apparently John Leahy begs to differ:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ave-7-8-million-price-premium.html



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6841 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 hours ago) and read 33844 times:

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 13):
Intriguing. I know Virgin Blue was very interested but baulked when Boeing wouldn't budge on price.

Well, Boeing might regret that when it specifically comes to the 739ER. But then, that's always open to debate. The info I'm hearing is that DJ "wouldn't mind" JT going bust with the 739ER existing somewhere in the conversation!

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
The 739ER is a derivative of the base 737, whatever Boeing decides to do with the base a/c - new build or re-engine - will be done for the 739ER, no different than where Airbus is with its A32X a/c, they are both families.

Spot on. The 739ER not being up to par after 2015, I find a bit funny on its own...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinetistpaa727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 327 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 hours ago) and read 33806 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Airlines replacing 757s, 762, A300s, A310 will likely look for a type that will be in long term production.

This doesn't bode well for the A32X NEO either...that's an interim solution to my knowledge.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
737-900ER is a natural progression for these carriers.

A 737-900ER sized plane yes...but a 900ER? Not so sure about that. I have a feeling these airlines will look for what Boeing (and others) have to offer in this class with a long-term outlook. As stated above, neither a new build 737-900ER (or re-engine) or a A32X NEO is a long-term solution - they are band-aids until a clean sheet design is unveiled.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 6):
Now, the so-called "killer" for the 739ER in my opinion will not be from A321NEO, or the other similarly sized competition, but, from the "baseline model" of the next generation of narrowbodies... from which a "stretched" derivative's performance can be "estimated"...

  

Quoting keesje (Reply 9):
If they can involve existing asian and western parties for after sales support

Quite true but I still think it will be a while before the likes of AF/KL, BA, UA, DL, etc take a serious look at the Russian aircraft. They have to prove they can support the entire supply chain before the blue chip airlines jump in and order.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 17):
Apparently John Leahy begs to differ:

Apparently, but he is quite vague. I understand the definition of transcon but he leaves TATL quite vague. I do not believe he refers to EWR to FRA...I could be wrong, I'm just saying he did not give the impression it would cover routes beyond East Coast to Ireland...


Unrelated....I always get a kick out of keejse and his visions for aircraft, holes in the market, etc. Whether you agree with him or not, he always manages to stir up some of the most debated threads.



Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1560 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 hours ago) and read 33525 times:

There is no doubt that the 919 and MC21 do offer real competition in the very top end og the 737/320 family and indeed do offer a replacement 757.

It seems (to me) that the A320/321NEO is a very sensible response by Airbus.People automatically see it as an agressive move against Boeing.In this case I am not so sure.I think it will be done to ensure the the 21 and the 919 stay (only) in their respective countries

.There is nothing anyone can do about these internal markets.If they build them they "the internal carriers" will buy them.It's what happens outside this that matters.The NEO will (for Airbus) put a stop to that I believe.

I do not believe that the NEO will be of the slightest interest to the LCC's but it may be of interest to flag carriers (BA for instance?)


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3203 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 hours ago) and read 33494 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
The 737 does not have the container/pallet capability of it's competitors.

Which is a good thing, considering using containers/pallets on narrowbody aircraft within the US would be a logistical nightmare that would have countless more drawbacks than advantages.

Quoting keesje (Reply 4):
I think Airbus is marketing a A321 NEO (probably LeapX) to United and Delta.

Market all they like, neither UA or DL are in any serious need for new narrowbodies in the near future. UA is about to acquire north of 200x 737NG plus quite a few 735's. DL has seemingly gone the path of acquiring second-hand narrowbodies in getting MD90's on the cheap - now upwards of 40 of them.

Quoting keesje (Reply 4):
Both have more Airbus NB's in their fleet then 737NG's.

What a ridiculous argument.  

Per that logic I could say that DL will most likely buy from McDonnell Douglas for their future NB order since they have more in their fleet than A319/A320.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 hours ago) and read 33255 times:

This business about the 739ER being unable to handle a new engine is null and void. Boeing and PW have already stated that if need be, they could adapt the GTF to the 737NG. These 'Boeing are in dire straits for everything but the 787' are getting so old.


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6144 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 hours ago) and read 32965 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 15):
Planemaker you should know better. You know as well as I do that new aircraft have an impact long before they enter service. Look at the 787, it took hundreds of orders out of it's segment, years, years before it entered service. Airlines buy new fleet and use their existing aircraft until they get it.

Comparing the 787 to the C939 or the MS21-400 is illogical for so many obvious reasons that it is ridiculous. There are no similarities between the 787 market dynamics and the C939 or MS21-400... NONE!

Quoting keesje (Reply 15):
Planemaker, considering how much you know about the market you should know the Russian and Chinese market are flooded with Airbus and Boeing aircraft. A320 are even produced locally. Apart from that e.g. the MS21 got an export contract already and Chinese ambitions also go further then China, as you know.

You conveniently avoid the real issue in that the C939 or the MS21-400 will not even EIS before 2020 at the earliest... if at all! To pretend that they are a threat to the 739 from 2015 makes zero sense!



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 hours ago) and read 32763 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 15):
You know as well as I do that new aircraft have an impact long before they enter service. Look at the 787, it took hundreds of orders out of it's segment, years, years before it entered service. Airlines buy new fleet and use their existing aircraft until they get it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.

Take even an established frame maker like Embraer. If the 787, exactly like it is being made today, was being created by Embraer, would it have garnered as many orders? Or any? Narrow-bodies from new entrants about to shake Boeing and Airbus years before EIS? No.

Credibility matters a whole lot. Boeing and Airbus have that in amount no other company matches.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6877 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 hours ago) and read 32635 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Actually UA (post merger) will have significantly more 737NGs than Airbus:

Also, aren't most of CO's 737NG's newer than UA's A320's? That will enter into the decision, as I strongly suspect that UA (and DL, for that matter) will want to go to all or the other eventually, and my money is that they will opt for the 737.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
25 web500sjc : would it be logical move for a manufacturer be to start with a 752 model as those airplane are the oldest and would theoretically be replaced first?
26 SEPilot : The 752 is flown because it exists and is quite good at what it does; but it seems that most airlines buying new airplanes want either something smal
27 Post contains images keesje : Scott Hamilton article in Flightglobal says: Leahy also says he is "comfortable" with Pratt & Whitney's P1000G maintenance projections of 20% lowe
28 AirNZ : So are all 737's used only in the US, or are you stating that anywhere outside the US is irrelevant in aviation?
29 par13del : I would think that the problem would also exist wherever containers are used on A320's and have to be transferred to 737's which are not container ca
30 keesje : A containerized cargo loading system is optional on the A320 series, so can never be a disadvantage..
31 Post contains images Transpac787 : Yes is that is EXACTLY what I meant to say.... I was saying it in reference to the OP's reply 4, saying Airbus is marketing a non-existant design to
32 Eagleboy : Sure where else in Europe would you want to go? Seriously though with the opening of the US immigration and customs pre-clearance facility in DUB thi
33 Post contains links and images keesje : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...321-at-757-replacement-market.html Uhm ..
34 Transpac787 : Please explain how it would be of ANY advantage to either UA or DL. I'm dying to see what left field examples you'll be able to come up with. Except
35 Post contains links and images keesje : I'm not not saying it is an advantage, you are saying it's a disadvantage. I completely fail to see how an optional system can be a rather extreme di
36 DiamondFlyer : It doesn't matter what you say, because since its an Airbus, he's in love with it. Bingo. I can't imagine the labor that would be required to move ca
37 Post contains images keesje : You can be damn sure Boeing's 737 replacement will have LD3-45 capability
38 par13del : I would not be shocked if it is not, unless the narrow body replacement is a widebody. Valid point especially in the US where RJ's abound. Boeing may
39 328JET : The Boeing 737-900ER is not a hot seller at the moment outside asia. Even in the US the sales must be really disappointing for Boeing. Not to mention
40 Viscount724 : Even with US pre-clearance at DUB, the extra time needed for the connection will never make that routing faster than a nonstop.
41 XT6Wagon : and like the A320 the useage rate of LD3-45 will be dismal. You ALLWAYS forget that containers add cost and reduce revenue to narrowbody cargo operat
42 ruscoe : Keesje, If your comments are correct then it is a bad thing for Airbus!! It will force Boeings hand on a 737 replacement. This is the crucial thing,wi
43 328JET : @ ruscoe 107 B787s in 2011? I would be very surprised if Boeing will manage to deliver more than 30 of the B787s next year.
44 RyanairGuru : Which airlines use the containerised system? I know BA does. I think AC do. Who else? I think you've got it in a nutshell. This is a competitive mark
45 BMI727 : It's hard to say for a re-engine, but for the 737 replacement, at least two of its biggest customers will be in the US and you'd better believe that
46 ruscoe : They already have 26 built, and still 3 months of this year to run then all next years production. However, you make a good point, and plenty could s
47 BMI727 : That was sarcasm. Boeing is doing fine.
48 CFBFrame : Only if the RR engine or a wiring issue like the A380 hits them. They have close to 30 currently at some point of production around their plant now.
49 msp747 : During their last earnings call, Delta's CEO said they are not in the market for new aircraft and that the only jets they'll be adding to the fleet w
50 Someone83 : Most European non-LCC airlines
51 Post contains links and images keesje : I think after thousands of sales for more then 40 years the Boeing 737 is slowly getting cornered. All the established OEMS (GE, Rockwell, Thales, Ho
52 planemaker : Big deal... it is an RJ seating under 100 pax @ 32" pitch where Alenia Aeronautica has 15% interest (51% on foreign sales). It has absloutely nothing
53 Post contains links and images keesje : Well, they built the 787 wing box.. Not only in my dreams. Boeing and Airbus don't agree with you. Large part of Airbus and Boeing aircraft are alrea
54 connies4ever : AC definitely use the containerised system on their A320s, but not on the A319s. This was I believe to save weight so the A319 could do the YHZ-YVR r
55 parapente : In 60 days Boeing will be in the perfect position.This is (according to Airbus) the latest date when they will announce the NEO.Although it already se
56 rheinwaldner : I agree that the 737 seems to be an unsuitable platform to receive another major upgrade. It is technically correct that a 737NEO would be possible b
57 Post contains links and images keesje : That might be right. There is a complication however. It is hard to design an aircraft that can handle both an optimized 130-150 seater and also a 19
58 SEPilot : I cannot imagine an airline continuing indefinitely to run both the A320 and 737; in cases where both exist due to mergers they will continue until i
59 SEPilot : But there are two huge problems with open rotor that have not yet been solved-noise and speed. The reason the engine manufacturers are pursuing it is
60 keesje : I think for a very large airline it is inevitable to have different types. Even SW has 737-300/ 500s, 700s and are now looking at 800s. If you replac
61 Post contains images mandala499 : The only mythical part is the 321NEO, not the containerized capability of the 320 family (except 318). And create another LD3 container version???? I
62 rheinwaldner : Boeing and Airbus have delivered thousands of 130 seater... IMO it is more likely that they continue with their current NB-size-policy. That means th
63 SEPilot : There is a huge problem with any Russian company making inroads in the West-and it's the Russian government. I am totally confident of the ability of
64 Post contains images parapente : Quote SEPilot "But there are two huge problems with open rotor that have not yet been solved-noise and speed" There have been various comments recentl
65 Post contains links keesje : I think Airbus and Boeing buy much of their key technology. At RR, GE, Spirit, MHI, Honeywell, Rockwell etc. Big suppliers that also deliver to other
66 SEPilot : Very simple; if it had really been solved, then the airframe manufacturers would be actively working on building an aircraft for it. The problem with
67 A342 : Maybe in Asia and North America, but here in Europe, whenever I am at a big airport, I usually see dozens of AKHs being loaded into the aircraft of t
68 Post contains images mandala499 : Dismal for the LD3-45, but not for the LD3-46 which you pointed out... ! Mandala499
69 planemaker : Yes, absolutely in your dreams! Boeing and Airbus DO agree with me. No one on this thread is saying that China and Russia are not going to produce ai
70 keesje : ? You ARE dreaming. Why do you think airlines are Boeing pushing for a replacement, according to McNerney, why? I said Boeing that I think Boeing wil
71 par13del : Here's a question, is this really about the capabilities of the 737-900ER or about US carriers who are getting ready to replace 757's in service so we
72 BMI727 : Because they want the newest, lightest, and most efficient plane. What Boeing has to do is decide whether that is a better path for them than a re-en
73 speedygonzales : IMO, part of the 739's problem is that it's a much smaller step up from the 738 than the A321 is from the A320. If 737-700 and A319 are used as a base
74 parapente : Quoting SEPilot it will always be possible to make ducted fanjets quieter, and that will overwhelm the fuel advantage. That is your view -That noise w
75 frmrCapCadet : There are costs associated with re-engining the A and B NBs, and costs associated with new builds. There are costs associated with adding a new type t
76 SEPilot : As you say, we differ on our view, and one or the other of us will be proved wrong. I also accept this, and we will see. As to the Global Warming/CO2
77 planemaker : Why do you always try to skate around when your assertions have crumbled. That some airlines are pushing Boeing for an NB replacement has NOTHING to
78 mandala499 : Exactly, it will take time for them to become a serious threat. Those aircraft whose designs haven't been frozen will be a threat, if they can become
79 EA772LR : Well the 739ER is a quite capable aircraft, and if Boeing had launched the initial 739 with the capabilities of the 739ER, then we'd be seeing a lot
80 mandala499 : This is the sad truth of the 739ER... Well I do wonder on the sales value of the 739ER (excluding Lion's orders) in comparison with the 753 and 764..
81 Post contains links and images planemaker : As I have previously posted, if you look at a realistic MS21-400 time line (if it is indeed ever built) and address production rate... how can it pos
82 RoseFlyer : As someone who once was one of the over 1,000 dedicated 737 design engineers at Boeing who work to maintain production and continuously improve the 73
83 Post contains links keesje : I think >200 seats is becoming an increasingly important segment. Traffic grows at 5% per year. Replacecing 10-20 year old 150-170 seaters will li
84 Post contains links and images ea772lr : 'Tis true my friend... Good question, but with the addition of winglets alone, the A321 will be a very very impressive aircraft, and if Airbus do go
85 tdscanuck : Because Keesje started the thread based on the axiom that Boeing is screwed. Any evidence that Boeing is not screwed (e..g the continued success of t
86 Post contains links keesje : Utter non-sense tdscanduk. I was a strong supporter for the 900ER, even before it was launched. (and this is documented). 2003 http://www.airliners.n
87 parapente : Re Reply 77 SEPilot. Thanks for you well argued reply. It may surprise you that I too have an equally deep mistrust of The GW doomsayers. My point was
88 mandala499 : Nothing new in that article in comparison to the presentation they had in late 2008, except for the engine. Currently, the market is moving towards t
89 A342 : However, the A321 does have a higher max. structural payload capability, about two or three tonnes IIRC.
90 SEPilot : This is certainly true; but I do not think it likely that they will win. I think the liberals in Congress are going to receive a drubbing of historic
91 planemaker : It isn't nonsense based on this thread you started. Just look at what you posted... 1. The C939 and MS21-400 won't EIS before 2020 - at the earliest.
92 Post contains links Rheinbote : FWIW... http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2010/08/sharks_and_jets.html
93 Post contains images keesje : Seeing how many copies were sold so far, the upcoming competitions and remarks of Boeing themsleves, my opinion the 737-900ER will be hard to market
94 DfwRevolution : Bear in mind that the 739ER has only been available for 5 years. From the standpoint of pure averages, Boeing has sold 252 of the 739ER (50 per year)
95 CFBFrame : They had to address the rear bulk head. Because of that they could not install the additional emergency exit so the first few were seat limited to ~1
96 XT6Wagon : 189 seats was the exit limit, exactly the same as the 737-800. Which is why it did badly, it was a lot of wieght for a little extra capacity for most
97 BMI727 : The A321's performance is far from worthless. It is more than sufficient for many flights, including pretty much any intra-European route. Just becau
98 planemaker : First off, the reason why the number of 739 sold thus far have been explained several times throughout this thread. If you want to ignore those reaso
99 BMI727 : Wasn't the Tu-204 supposed to be the coming out party for Russian airliners? And then the SuperJet, which is undoubtedly a nice plane, but hasn't see
100 PolymerPlane : The problem isn't really wing configuration, rather the clearance. I don't think it's a big modification to increase the length of the landing gears,
101 Post contains images BMI727 : Boeing has already said that they could put LEAP-X or GTF on the 737, so I don't know why Keesje and others continue to trot out that argument. Appar
102 tdscanuck : Because it sounds good. Don't confuse the relatively rare 757-200 long-leg missions with the bulk of what the 757 fleet is doing. Something like 90%
103 planemaker : Well, for those that like to parse data, below are current range/flight distributions for the 757 with and without winglets. Boeing 757-200 Passenger
104 keesje : If planemakers data is correct, payload range requirements for a 757 replacement are more serious then many assume. It seems current 737 and A320 vers
105 mandala499 : The data from Planemaker, I assume is in STATUTE Miles (1.609km/sm) and not Nautical Miles (1.852km/nm). That gives the following, in 500NM groups (b
106 Post contains images ER757 : Well, we know Randy reads a.net, he's mentioned it on his blog many times. I guess he felt the need to respond to this thread.
107 planemaker : Yes, it says "Range (st-m)" Yes, perhaps someone can really explain why the 739 would not be up to par by 2015! (BTW... "And next year and into early
108 Post contains links and images keesje : Planemaker data shows roughly 30% of 757 flights are above 2000nm. Payload range shows the 737-900ER has limitted cargo capacity when more then 200 pe
109 kimberlyrj : hey hey The two main airlines which have merged, CO/UA, DL/NW both have a mixture of Airbus’s and Boeing’s. Maybe it would be a good idea for them
110 planemaker : You are once again avoiding answering a statement you made. Please list the "many" 757 routes that 739 can't do due to "cargo, diversion, hot airport
111 BMI727 : How many airlines use that? It works for some, but for a lot of airlines it is a complete non-issue. Airlines really don't care that much, and not ev
112 Post contains links keesje : I have no idea, but no matter, somebody listed the numbers of long flights in reply 104.. Even in the US there many busy city pairs above 2000NM. htt
113 PlanesNTrains : Fine. Order it today for 757 style missions, and let it be your growth aircraft for former -700/800 routes down the road. By then, we'll have a bette
114 Post contains images mandala499 : Nuff said... The above, only gives DTW-HNL as the one unable for the 739ER... The rest, can be served by the 739ER (and the 321). And that, I don't t
115 planemaker : Exactly... you have absolutely no idea but make statements not based in reality... though it does indeed matter (at least to everyone else). For exam
116 PlanesNTrains : I think that is a very important distinction that needed to be made. Not just the "factual" configurations, which impact the entire comparison, but t
117 par13del : In Europe the 737-800 like the A320 covers the vast majority of the routes that the 757 could do with slightly less seats and more efficiency, so why
118 planemaker : I am actually quite surprised that in the face of overwhelming evidence that repeatedly refutes his "agenda" that he still tries to present it as cre
119 mandala499 : The 321 didn't wipe the 757 out, it just dried up the orders... now if those MS-21 and C939 did end up in production with excellent support etc, it w
120 BMI727 : The order book is helping to make Planemaker's case. The MS-21 has 96 orders and COMAC is targeting 100 by the end of the year. Of course, I think th
121 Post contains images astuteman : Bit pedantic perhaps, but actually they didn't. They lowered the fixing position on the fuselage by incorporating a blister. The landing gear is the
122 Post contains links keesje : Look at 737-900ER max payload (~27t), moving to the right you can an A321 can take that load ~1000nm further. FYI Embraer took over the 70-120 seater
123 SEPilot : A niche neither Boeing or Airbus has shown any interest in. And I think you'll find that they have been replaced by 738's and A320's. When the 757 wa
124 pnwtraveler : Hmm who should I believe? Randy who works for a very large company that is under scrutiny from the SCC, shareholders, airlines, and many other agencie
125 Post contains links and images keesje : Look at the graph made by Zeke and posted in a thread some time ago. The numbers are consistent with publicly available airbus.com and boeing.com man
126 planemaker : He wasn't talking about "RJs". And to be more precise... it is the last 5 years that they have won market share from the CRJ700 and CRJ900... but the
127 SEPilot : It is curious that there was this sudden bubble of demand for the 757, but I suspect it was because they could be had used. I believe that few of the
128 SEPilot : Again, you are including a non-existing aircraft, the 739ER without winglets. And it again indicates that the real 739ER outperforms your beloved A32
129 planemaker : Plus, since this thread is about "2015", the 739 will have a 2% lower fuel burn starting next year... and that should have been included in performan
130 XT6Wagon : Just wasting your time. Some here don't care what the facts are, just what they wish to be. Strangely its allways backed up by diagrams and photos of
131 Post contains images mandala499 : They haven't taken it over, but they are making huge gains and I expect them to dominate. If you think that if Embraer can do it therefore the MS-21
132 328JET : We are operating A321-200s and B757-200Ws. Comparing the fuel burn of these two models with the same pax number (y217) over a typical 2:30 hours fligh
133 Post contains links and images keesje : The program has been developped for years and launched recently. They are promoting them everywhere. To call this "purely speculative at this point..
134 RoseFlyer : The compatability version that you are citing was released in 2005. The first 900ER did not roll out until 2006. I know what I am talking about. The
135 SEPilot : But the primary support has to come from the airframe manufacturer, and no major airline is going to buy them until they are sure that they will get
136 keesje : That maybe true but it has no influence on 900ER performance. Eary -900 operators like KLM did not install them because weight / fuel prices did not
137 RoseFlyer : I believe that line is inappropriate on your chart since it does not represent a real airplane.
138 planemaker : Keesje, this post is so typical of you... purposely ignore all the facts that refute your assertions, and substitute with a red herring. XTWagon pegg
139 keesje : You repeated this frase several times. Funny thing is, I never said so. I said: because of the A321 NEO and C939 and MS21-400. I still think so! So i
140 Post contains images ea772lr : Why though? You keep ignoring the fact that Boeing themselves as well as PW have said they can make at least the GTF work on the existing 737NG platf
141 SEPilot : That may be true; however there is still basic support that must come from OAK. I never said anything about Airbus not selling aircraft; I am referri
142 Post contains images mandala499 : Did you not write the topic title of this thread? Will they ever be built, probably... but have you asked them some of the "hard questions" ? Well, b
143 planemaker : First of all, you again show that you don't care at all for the truth and will invent anything to suit your needs... many others besides myself have
144 keesje : If you look better it hasn't. Only a few blue chips for a few dozen of aircraft. Contrary to the A321. The Russian and Chinese planes do not exist (f
145 SEPilot : Precisely. The Russians and Chinese have never built a competitive airliner with Airbus or Boeing, and to think that their first effort will beat eit
146 Post contains links mandala499 : Nice subpar try Meneer... ACAPS 2005 is the same as the source you provided: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/737sec3.pdf AC_321 is th
147 Post contains images planemaker : Actually, not for a while... "We plan to start cutting metal on the MS-21 prototype in 2012, with a view to making it airborne in 2014, and schedule
148 T5towbar : I doubt you will see a container used on a narrowbody Airbus here in the US. With a working (I say again, WORKING) Telair onboard, it is a a whole lo
149 keesje : Russian aerospace was in a serious crisis during the last 15 yrs. Engineering bureaus and production facilities all has to survive on their own, youn
150 Antoniemey : Not to mention that most of the places aircraft with less than 180 seats fly to lack the equipment to handle containers.
151 planemaker : And there are many more problems and obstacles. Precisely one of the many reason why a possible MS21-400 does NOT form a threat under any guise to th
152 Post contains links and images keesje : Well, Aeroflot also won't order Boeing 737-900ER's after 2015? You apparently don't think Boeing will have a hard job marketing the 737-900ER after 2
153 Post contains images planemaker : Keesje, another red herring! I said that the MS21-400 is NOT a threat to the 739 in 2015, as you have insisted in claiming... nothing about Aeroflot
154 par13del : A good bet would be all those American carriers that Airbus is trying to lure with its improved A321, or in other words, all the American carriers ot
155 tdscanuck : Well, no, because it's not true based on the data that you yourself posted. Except for the minor detail of "Boeing 737-900ER Probably Not Up To Par A
156 Post contains images mandala499 : I'm sorry to say, but this discussion has gone down into the sub-par category. Yes, the 739ER will probably continue to "struggle" to find sales... co
157 BMI727 : I doubt that either will be seen as a 757 replacement on a large scale. It doesn't make that much sense to spend that much money on new planes to rep
158 mandala499 : Well, as long as the investments are paid off, it's not a failure. Some would... either they take gamble or perhaps 'duped' into buying it (I guess i
159 328JET : Folks, you are a bit rude to Keesje... He was just trying to say that Boeing facing problems to improve the B739ER so much, that it still is competiti
160 Tigerguy : Pretty much the story of Y1, right?
161 328JET : Yes, it would be Y1. And i believe it is a better solution than a short-term re-engine-program.
162 msp747 : You Europeans need to get over the whole "container" argument. US airlines are the largest operators of the 757 (which the A321 and 737-900ER are sup
163 Post contains images BMI727 : ...except that really isn't the case. , just I'm thinking that five inches and a system so many airlines don't use probably won't make or break a mod
164 Tigerguy : But wouldn't one feed into the other at some point? If they feel that any technical shortcomings will cause them to lose business, then they would pr
165 328JET : 1. Could you provide us with more details why NO new landing gear is required? What is the expected fan diameter of the Leap56 or PW PP? 2. Fuselage d
166 BMI727 : Eventually, but the point here is that there is nothing about the 737 that means that putting new engines on it will have less positive effect than o
167 328JET : Seven inches are 17cm, that is nearly 3cm per seat or the possibility for quicker boarding/de-boarding for the A321NEO. And the MS21 and C919 will ha
168 BMI727 : But can you really turn that extra 3 cm per seat into proportionately larger revenues? If they can't, it's just extra weight. But you are missing the
169 XT6Wagon : Only that extra width is at the FLOOR level of the A320, and the difference is far less at armrest hieght which is the actual width you need to compa
170 328JET : You can use it as a benefit for your customer! Or do what some lowcost airlines are doing in the moment: Use B737-seats on your A32x and get a much w
171 Post contains images 328JET : The B737 in the moment is alright as the actual A32x-series is. But this discussion is about 2015, not about 2010. And i still believe a new B787-sty
172 BMI727 : If only... It is, but the difference is that there are far fewer widebody flights where that would need to happen. The sheer numbers of RJ and mainli
173 Post contains images 328JET : The difference of europe and the US in terms of RJs and mainline aircrafts is nearly on par. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Boei
174 Antoniemey : It's a possibility... my understanding is, however, that the 757 CAN take a container (if it was outfitted with the floor rollers), just not the size
175 keesje : Can you read? You keep on putting words into people mouths & attacking them on it. I hope you don't in real life.. Do you think the 787 was a thr
176 SEPilot : The 737ER currently enjoys a fuel burn advantage over the A321 and has essentially the same engines; if Boeing simply goes with the same engines as t
177 T5towbar : On all our 737 (900's & ER's) and our 757 (300's) they are equipped with the Telair carpet system. But on our 800's and 752's do not have that op
178 flyorski : I think that if Labor pay rates in the U.S. start to match those in Europe, in other words if ground or below wing employees in the states earn as muc
179 Post contains images planemaker : Buddy, what you posted is right there for all to read - I'm putting NOTHING in your mouth (your foot is already there). In fact, I'll post what you w
180 flyorski : Why do you hate flying them, if you dont mind my asking? I like SWA for short haul flights, although I could imagine getting tired of the cheerfulnes
181 keesje : The A321 is heavier but carries much more payload further. Everyone here is free to ignore that. The market hasn't. I did not say I never HEARD of Kor
182 pnwtraveler : It has been a while since I have flown them I have to admit. My last trip was San Diego to Vegas, a very short flight. As a FF you get used to assign
183 SEPilot : Since the only backing for this is the chart you posted which seems to have been removed that showed that while the A321 would carry marginally more
184 keesje : It's in reply 125 with sources & you are free to come up with better data and sources.
185 SEPilot : I don't need to; your own chart disproves your argument.
186 Antoniemey : Yes, they do... But the 757 bin is taller. I should know, I've been in both. From my recollection, the 757 bin is very close to the same height as th
187 mandala499 : It doesn't. They still have to get out through the same doors... and if using stairs, the wider aisle does not help. What does help is for LCCs who s
188 keesje : I think the 737-900ER and A321 serve slightly different segments (payload, cargo). Xcuse if I became irritated, folks twisting my words, putting word
189 Viscount724 : If they use the same seats as the 737, the A320 aisle is more than "slightly" wider. It's more like 6 inches wider which is a huge difference. You ca
190 Post contains links keesje : Other folks looked at 737-900ER and A321 NEO too this week. http://airinsight.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/a321gtfv3-21.pdf http://www.glgroup.com/News
191 BMI727 : Even professionals are falling for the fuzzy logic that putting a new engine under an A321 is somehow inherently better than putting a new engine und
192 XT6Wagon : Both are apparently by the same person, and likely on Airbus's payroll. Might even be Keesje, backing his statements here with his own anonymous "ana
193 Post contains images planemaker : Oh, well, in that case, your statement is now completely meaningless... it makes not an iota of difference whether you "never saw in real life" Korea
194 Post contains links and images keesje : Nonsense. The capasity, payload, range near max payload, sales, sfc, lack of container capability, environmental pressure and lower comfort of the 73
195 SEPilot : I have not seen a single post indicating that Boeing will continue trying to sell the 737 series after the A320NEO without AT LEAST a new engine of t
196 Post contains images planemaker : There you go, yet again... completely ignoring what was posted... ... "you still can't come up with some remotely plausible reason why the C939 and M
197 par13del : That was always my understanding, I even thought that the A321 was designed as a counter to the 757, the 737-900ER did not exist when the the A321 wa
198 BMI727 : I noticed that as well. And then there are all of the 757s Boeing has sold over the previous two decades. Yeah, just glancing through the cost estima
199 328JET : I am sorry to say, but it is an airliners.net story only, that an engine with the same diameter as on the A321NEO can be put on the B739ER without ex
200 328JET : The doors are never the limiting factor, it is always the aisle which extends the boarding and de-boarding time. The best would be two aisles for sur
201 328JET : There is a difference between this comparison. The A321-100 and A321-200 are the same aircraft with different fuel capacity and as an option differen
202 BMI727 : Well, you should really tell Boeing that. Because I don't think that they have same insight that you and Keesje seem to.
203 Antoniemey : The engines on the current models are already different diameters. The different weights and aerodynamics of the two aircraft pretty much balance out
204 328JET : It is a little bit different. Not only the diameter is different, but also the engine version and generation. To talk about comparable engines, i giv
205 Post contains images 328JET : Hmmm, if read all posts again, i can not find too many people thinking your way here. Boeing for sure is not posting here... And as a side-note to yo
206 Post contains links BMI727 : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...difications-for-737-re-engine.html http://www.glgroup.com/News/Can-CFM-...nother-LEAP-X-Platform--50195.html Fo
207 Post contains links 328JET : Fore sure the Leap56 could be adapted to the B737NNG, but are you sure it will be the same optimized version as on the A32x? I am not. It will be a ve
208 BMI727 : Nobody has said for sure. The 737 has been working with slightly less efficient nacelles for a while now and it hasn't hurt them. The 737 is already
209 328JET : I think we can say it is all customer driven. If more customers prefer an updated B737-version, we will see a B737NNG with new engines. If more custom
210 BMI727 : It will be customer driven, but not just customer driven. The customers whose feedback has made it out into the public arena seem to largely be in fa
211 XT6Wagon : P&W would be falling all over themselves to get one done if allowed to power a 737. Boggles my mind that a select group here think that the engin
212 328JET : I hope that with the next narrowbody from Boeing the exclusive deal with CFM will not be extended. Every airline should have a choice between two eng
213 tdscanuck : Except for the minor detail that the -5 and -7 aren't a generation apart...CFM has rolled basically all the same improvement packages into both engin
214 JoeCanuck : Boeing, CFM and P&W have all repeatedly said that the new engines can be fitted to the 737 without too much effort so why do we keep hearing the s
215 tdscanuck : 1) There is a certain contingent of the forum who can't abide the idea that Airbus and Boeing are equal competitors. 2) There is a certain contingent
216 JoeCanuck : There are some things I won't trust Boeing enough to take to the bank...chief among them are schedules, but they have an amazing track record of impr
217 thegeek : Well said. Err, no. An A320NEO vs a re-engined 739ER is still likely to have a fuel burn favouring the Boeing plane. And even if it doesn't it will b
218 Post contains images 328JET : Guys, the Boeing 737NG is a very good aircraft in the moment and Boeing very often surprised a lot of airlines about new further improvements which ra
219 BMI727 : The biggest difference is that this market would have no A380 analogue...unless Boeing goes ahead with the Y1. That may happen even if the C919 is a
220 thegeek : 748i vs 747-100 is probably a smaller improvement than either of the 2 major refreshes done to the 737 over it's life though. I expect that Boeing wo
221 Post contains images 328JET : No, as Airbus is producing in china... Exactly that is the reason i expect a new design from Boeing now.
222 thegeek : That doesn't make any sense. If the current 737 has moved much more than the 747, then that suggests that either the 747 was far better initially, or
223 JoeCanuck : Airbus is in exactly the same boat as Boeing. Whatever competition hits Boeing, will also hit Airbus. Boeing can keep the 737 on par with the 320 ser
224 328JET : Exactly what i believe! Is on par only really what we should expect? Why not raising the bar like it was done with the B787? The term better implies
225 thegeek : What technologies, besides engine, would make a clean sheet attractive? The only thing which makes any sense to me is CFRP on the basis of making the
226 JoeCanuck : Boeing is a business...and so are the competitors. At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, that means Airbus. Par is what Boeing can reasonabl
227 328JET : How do you know? Most airlines operate far more narrowbodies than widebodies in their fleet. So the benefit from a lighter airframe would help them a
228 rheinwaldner : Who said they can't? It is not about the ability. It is about the expected return in relation to the effort! The effort to install an engine (that fu
229 mandala499 : Doors (the number of it available for use) and the aisle length is the determining factor in how fast you can throw pax bags out of the cabin or how
230 JoeCanuck : What concrete upgrades will the 321 be getting that the 739 won't? Up to par is quite simple. It means similar performance. The relative sales don't
231 rheinwaldner : 1) Winglets. That is no possibility for the 739ER because it has them already. 2) New engines (seem much more concrete for the A320 family) And the a
232 SEPilot : And don't forget that for much of the time that the A321 was offered Boeing had the 757 as well as the 739. The 739ER was only developed after the 75
233 Post contains links and images keesje : Looking at the 737-900ER orders and deliveries (reply 52), it becomes clear that out of the 252 orders, Boeing has 177 unfilled. Of those 177 a/c, 14
234 tdscanuck : You're ignoring the *massive* role of politics in aircraft sales, and especially in aircraft sales to China. Sale of Boeing aircraft to China is the
235 SEPilot : As I understand it, it should reduce maintenance costs significantly as well. It is way too early to pass judgment on whether or not it is worthwhile
236 BMI727 : Except that the effort won't be that great, according to people who would know. How stupid would it be for an engine manufacturer to design an engine
237 Post contains links and images keesje : Yes they openly said so. However Air France / KLM think they should do better. Of course there are airlines that have more influence with Airbus, but
238 XT6Wagon : Soooo should we drag out the numbers for the A380 and have you declare the A380 dead as of 2015? Well, it does improve it as there is losses in takin
239 SEPilot : Customers only have leverage when they have alternatives. I suspect Boeing and Airbus may have had an unspoken agreement not to rock the narrowbody b
240 Post contains images AAExecPlat : Brilliant comparison of apples and oranges. The A380 is a brand new airplane with the latest technology inside and out (although not as advanced a th
241 Post contains links Swallow : Interesting analysis of a GTF powered A321 by Airinsight, including the instruction by JL to Airbus engineers to avoid "mission creep" and stick to on
242 Post contains images par13del : On this site that statement has been called into question So now we are comparing the A321 with the 757 and not the 737-900ER? It does make you wonde
243 keesje : No that is maybe your interpretation. The opening post stated that looking at new designs coming available in a few years in the >200 seat narrowb
244 SEPilot : But the only evidence you have produced contradicts your assertions. I maintain that the A321 and 739ER are very close to equal and will remain so as
245 A342 : You might argue that SK did (though they also have a large fleet of MD80s).
246 par13del : Except Boeing has no offering in the narrow body > 200 seat market, that is the market served by the 757 which they discontinued with no replaceme
247 SEPilot : Not really. The SK A321's were ordered in 2002, and that was while the 757 line was still going. Obviously SK did not want the range and fuel consump
248 BMI727 : True, but Boeing going ahead with a Y1 does not equate to an admission that a re-engined 737 is inherently unable to compete with a re-engined A320.
249 Post contains links keesje : I think the differences between the A321 (& C939, MS-400) are significant and summed up in the OP and further down the thtread. Again; compared t
250 srbmod : At this point, this thread is being locked, as it has reached 250 posts and for the last few days has been going around in circles with not much new g
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