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AA To Make Some ORD-PEK & PVG Frequencies Seasonal  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25834 posts, RR: 50
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5289 times:

Interesting trend developing.

After Delta applied to convert two of seven its DTW-PVG frequencies from year-round to a seasonal allocation ( Delta To Make DTW-PVG 5x Weekly (by deltal1011man Aug 16 2010 in Civil Aviation) ), now American Airlines has applied similarly to convert two of its seven ORD-PEK and two of seven ORD-PVG frequencies from year-round to permanent seasonal use.

OST-2007-28567
OST-2004-19077


In recent years the DOT has been open for carriers using less than their alloted frequencies on a case by case basis, but now airlines are seeking this relief on a permanent basis.

While I sympathize with airlines, I'm not sure allowing valuable frequency awards to go unused on a permanent basis is the best path to follow. While no one might be clamoring to add China flights today, these frequencies might be hot commodity one day in the future, or this precedence might be applied to more limited entry market potentially denying access to OALs. My preference would be for the DOT to grant such seasonal deferral on a case by case basis year to year.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

Well, it appears that the ORD-PEK schedule is now back to the late night/early morning departure through at least next spring. I have to wonder if this flight is even going to survive at all if AA isn't able to get the slots for the daytime flights. So given this, I'm not surprised that AA wants to reduce this route to 5x weekly. As for ORD-PVG, I thought that this route was doing well so I guess I am a little surprised there.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33077 posts, RR: 71
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 1):
So given this, I'm not surprised that AA wants to reduce this route to 5x weekly. As for ORD-PVG, I thought that this route was doing well so I guess I am a little surprised there.

Actually, AA has not actually said they are reducing the flights to seasonal - it continues to intend to operate year-round, daily service to both. It just wants to be on a level playing field with Delta and be given the flexibility in case market conditions warrant reductions.

DOT should deny both these applications and continue to grant seasonal dormancy on a year-by-year basis.



a.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11753 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 1):
Well, it appears that the ORD-PEK schedule is now back to the late night/early morning departure through at least next spring. I have to wonder if this flight is even going to survive at all if AA isn't able to get the slots for the daytime flights. So given this, I'm not surprised that AA wants to reduce this route to 5x weekly.

Actually, from what I've heard/seen, this flight is actually doing remarkably well - at least in terms of loads - compared with expectations after the schedule change. It has apparently been getting fairly strong loads, particularly in premium cabins. Now, of course, loads do not equal yields, but I was expecting that AA would not even be able to marginally fill planes to PEK with these schedules.


User currently offlineiahredhead From China, joined May 2006, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 1):
Well, it appears that the ORD-PEK schedule is now back to the late night/early morning departure through at least next spring. I have to wonder if this flight is even going to survive at all if AA isn't able to get the slots for the daytime flights.

This situation never got resolved? Did anyone ever determine or discover why AA didn't get the time slots they wanted. I can't speak for the air, but Terminal 3 at the time of day UA and CO are on the ground is half empty. AA can't be accommodated then?

Scott



"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33077 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5076 times:

Quoting iahredhead (Reply 4):
This situation never got resolved? Did anyone ever determine or discover why AA didn't get the time slots they wanted. I can't speak for the air, but Terminal 3 at the time of day UA and CO are on the ground is half empty. AA can't be accommodated then?

Nor Delta, who also did not get the slots it wanted. But AA continues to work on it and hopes to have it solved for the summer 2011 schedule.

However, on that note, it has not really hurt the loads, which are doing quite well. It minimizes connections on the China side, but that doesn't appear to have been a big issue.



a.
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
Actually, from what I've heard/seen, this flight is actually doing remarkably well - at least in terms of loads - compared with expectations after the schedule change. It has apparently been getting fairly strong loads, particularly in premium cabins. Now, of course, loads do not equal yields, but I was expecting that AA would not even be able to marginally fill planes to PEK with these schedules.

I hope you're right in that it's doing well. One thing that I can't help but wonder about is the possibility that the only reason that the loads are good is that the flight was originally sold with the daytime/afternoon departure and got switched to the bad departure and arrival times after a big chunk of people had already booked their tickets. Maybe I'm thinking too much of it but I just think that if someone (for whom convenience is the most imprtant factor) is buying a ticket from ORD to PEK and they can fly, for example, on UA and depart at 12PM or whenever that flight takes place or fly AA and depart at close to midnight, then it's a no brainer.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11753 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4891 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
I hope you're right in that it's doing well. One thing that I can't help but wonder about is the possibility that the only reason that the loads are good is that the flight was originally sold with the daytime/afternoon departure and got switched to the bad departure and arrival times after a big chunk of people had already booked their tickets.

That may well have been the case in the first month or so, but this flight has now been operating for nearly three months. At this point, if this flight is still supporting reasonable loads - and by that I mean in the 60-70%+ range - I would say that is not all that bad (again, with the obvious caveat that I don't know what yields are) considering the awful flight times, and the fact that it has now been operating for several months.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
Maybe I'm thinking too much of it but I just think that if someone (for whom convenience is the most imprtant factor) is buying a ticket from ORD to PEK and they can fly, for example, on UA and depart at 12PM or whenever that flight takes place or fly AA and depart at close to midnight, then it's a no brainer.

I, too, have thought the exact same thing, which is why I, too, have been very surprised by the loads I've seen/heard about.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Why do DL and AA have these issues and CO and UA do not? Not trying to pick a x vs y discussion, but to truly understand the difference between why UA at ORD works year round and AA at ORD does not (same for DTW with the world's largest carrier) realizing CO is not as straight of a comparison due to the sheer size of NYC.

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5313 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4775 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 8):
Why do DL and AA have these issues and CO and UA do not? Not trying to pick a x vs y discussion, but to truly understand the difference between why UA at ORD works year round and AA at ORD does not (same for DTW with the world's largest carrier) realizing CO is not as straight of a comparison due to the sheer size of NYC.

I really don't think that either carrier is suggesting that their China routes cannot work year round. I think that what they are trying to do is lock in the seasonality of the authorities so that if there is another downturn, they can just reduce frequencies on the routes and stem losses. Basically, it's somewhat akin to an extra insurance policy.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 8):
Why do DL and AA have these issues and CO and UA do not? Not trying to pick a x vs y discussion, but to truly understand the difference between why UA at ORD works year round and AA at ORD does not (same for DTW with the world's largest carrier) realizing CO is not as straight of a comparison due to the sheer size of NYC.

AA historically is not as strong at ORD as UA, nor is AA as strong to Asia. UA not only has a larger corporate flier base from ORD, but also has superior time slots, a stronger Chinese route network, a stronger partner base in China and a history on ORD-China that exceeds that of AA. AA simply is at a disadvantage from ORD-China against UA given their stronger position both at ORD and in Asia as a whole.

Jeremy


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9577 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):

CO already has this right for two of its EWR-PVG and PEK flights. So if you say no to DL and AA you need to take the right away from CO also.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 8):

read above. CO asked for the same rights last winter and go them for both EWR-PEK and EWR-PVG. UA on the other hand made IAD-PEK non-stop into IAD-NRT-PEK.



yep.
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