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Could HA Bring 717's To Mainland?  
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5079 posts, RR: 29
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9506 times:

Alright, so I was thinking about HA and their operations. It got me wondering if it would ever work for HA to base some 717's on the mainland, and feed their over water operations? For example, a flight from say DFW to LAX, connecting from there to a HNL flight on a 767 or 330? Thoughts?


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37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9480 times:

I don't think they ever would as they would have to draw down some of their inter-island operations to commit to it (which I don't think they would be willing to do given the new competition with go!). I think HA is content enough with the code-share agreements they have with airlines on the mainland feeding into flights at their west coast gateways, this way they get some of the feed with significantly less financial risk.

User currently onlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3663 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9456 times:
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No. They make their decisions on destinations based on O&D. That is why they fly to all those West Coast cities. HA would rather add a non-stop DFW-HNL/OGG flight than a connection through one of their West Coast cities.

User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9340 times:

The mainland market is already so saturated that I don't see what the point in doing this would be...


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9249 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Thread starter):
It got me wondering if it would ever work for HA to base some 717's on the mainland,

HA then also would have to open up a maintenance shop somewhere on the Mainland unless they would intend to outsource all mx-work.
Flying the B717's to Hawaii for mx-work (even as ferry flights) is a no-no given the B717's range (and the subsequent need for temp aux tanks to be installed to cover distance between Hawaii and the Mainland).
-HT



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User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9128 times:

Technically they could. They do every few years for re-certification in I think MIA. There was a picture once, but they take out the seats put in I believe three extra fuel tanks.


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User currently offlinePohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9023 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 5):
Technically they could. They do every few years for re-certification in I think MIA. There was a picture once, but they take out the seats put in I believe three extra fuel tanks.

yes heavy checks in MIA. I believe 3 or 4 tanks in the cabin. From what some people inside HA have said though, sometimes eastbound they barely dip into reserves in the cabin tanks. Of course it is still a necessity for the just in case factor and westbound it is needed.

On topic, I honestly don't believe HA would do this with their fleet. If anything they will use code shares for connections. No need for HA to over extend themselves when what they are currently doing is already successful.



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User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8997 times:

I seem to recall a similar thread about the possibility of AQ creating a similar network on the mainland (circa 2005?) but we obviously know what became of that...

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8976 times:

Why would HA sacrifice their interisland business to set up some 717s elsewhere? It'd be giving up a near-certain thing for a comparatively risky prospect without the kind of potential reward that would make it worthwhile. In the example given, it'd make more sense to just buy more 763ERs and start a DFW-HNL route.

User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7534 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 5):
There was a picture once, but they take out the seats put in I believe three extra fuel tanks.

There are actually a few pictures of such on A.net's photo database:

Here's 2 of them:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © James Richard Covington



BTW, the number of tanks HA used for their 717 ferry flights was FOUR; a sizable improvement over the NINE extra tanks required for their DC-9 predecessors.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 8):
Why would HA sacrifice their interisland business to set up some 717s elsewhere?

The only way I could see this possibly happen would be if HA were to pick up some additional 717s from somebody else. Outside of FL (which has no immediate plans to retire any of their 87-717s) and Click (who picked up the 25 ex-YX birds... did they shut down as well when MX recently shut down?); there aren't too other carriers that fly the type en masse.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8646 times:

The value of modern codesharing arrangements makes this concept extremely unlikely. Why should Hawaiian take the financial risk of flying their own metal when they know they'll have to fight for market share in a hostile environment (ie, the western US, where Southwest rules) when they can use American's network to feed into theirs where necessary? Also, as pointed out already, Hawaiian bases their route on O&D traffic, so anything they get from connecting pax is just gravy.

There might be something to the concept of putting greater focus on connecting pax, particularly from the east coast. But doing it on their own metal probably won't fly. (Pun not intended)


User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8640 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):
Click (who picked up the 25 ex-YX birds... did they shut down as well when MX recently shut down?)

Click is still flying.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8394 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Thread starter):
. It got me wondering if it would ever work for HA to base some 717's on the mainland, and feed their over water operations?

Probably not. There isn't a whole lot of reason to do that when they could just find a codeshare partner on the mainland.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 2):
They make their decisions on destinations based on O&D.

The list of mainland destinations they don't serve that could support a flight to Hawaii based on O&D is not huge.



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User currently onlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2565 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8345 times:

There actually has been talk of doing this within the company, but for many of the reasons stated above, it hasn't been acted upon yet. If we were to open 717 flying on the mainland, it would be with new aircraft, as we need all our current planes for interisland flying. For the competition aspect, we've been competing in one of the toughest markets for decades, and have succeded quite well. I'm sure that if the situation presented itself (i.e. yields steady, aircraft available, etc) our management would seriously consider moving into the mainland market. It would probably be mostly feed from the mountain/midwest into our hubs on the west coast to start, but you never know where it would go from there.

HAL



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User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8248 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):
BTW, the number of tanks HA used for their 717 ferry flights was FOUR; a sizable improvement over the NINE extra tanks required for their DC-9 predecessors.

Wow, that's significantly more than I expected.. though I'm sure half of those were required to meet the FAR's reserve requirements. Even still, that's significant.

How does Aloha do it with their 732s? Occasionally I see an Aloha Cargo 732 flying direct to Oakland (for what I'm guessing has to do with maintenance). Do Aloha's jets use tanks for the ferry?



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8211 times:

Wouldn't a codeshare with a mainland carrier that has great service, animals on their tails, and hubs in DEN and MKE be cheaper and provide sufficient feed with far less investment? Or mabye a deal with WN for feeding from LAS, PHX, BNA, etc.?

User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8164 times:
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Quoting m11stephen (Reply 3):
The mainland market is already so saturated that I don't see what the point in doing this would be...

You could not be more wrong---just ask any of us who live in the Bay Area and lost ATA and Aloha---Oakland was decimated and now fares are sky high----the Hawaii to the mainland market is far from being saturated---in fact look at what Alaska is doing and their load factors---they are pleasntly surprised at what pent up demand there is for flights that do not have to go through Honolulu.


User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8125 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 16):
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 3):
The mainland market is already so saturated that I don't see what the point in doing this would be...

You could not be more wrong---just ask any of us who live in the Bay Area and lost ATA and Aloha---Oakland was decimated and now fares are sky high----the Hawaii to the mainland market is far from being saturated---in fact look at what Alaska is doing and their load factors---they are pleasntly surprised at what pent up demand there is for flights that do not have to go through Honolulu.

I thought his point was that the intra-mainland market is so saturated with competitors, it's risky to jump in with your own metal. I didn't take that as referring to the mainland-Hawaii market.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7534 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7984 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 14):
How does Aloha do it with their 732s? Occasionally I see an Aloha Cargo 732 flying direct to Oakland (for what I'm guessing has to do with maintenance). Do Aloha's jets use tanks for the ferry?

Given that the 732 had a more limited range and greater fuel burn than its newer successors, chances are (guess on my part) they probably used tanks for ferry service to the mainland as well. I'm not sure how many tanks were used per flight.

Quoting N202PA (Reply 17):
I thought his point was that the intra-mainland market is so saturated with competitors

  



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7862 times:

Quoting N202PA (Reply 17):
I thought his point was that the intra-mainland market is so saturated with competitors, it's risky to jump in with your own metal. I didn't take that as referring to the mainland-Hawaii market.

Yeah, I meant the intra-mainland market not the mainland-Hawaii market. Sorry for the confusion.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineYflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7862 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 7):
I seem to recall a similar thread about the possibility of AQ creating a similar network on the mainland (circa 2005?) but we obviously know what became of that...

Aloha did have a couple of flights between mainland cities, though those were all tags on Hawaii-mainland flights. They flew SMF-SNA, continuing to HNL, and I believe they had a similar route from RNO. You could actually book SMF-SNA on Aloha.


User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7771 times:

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 20):
Quoting 777fan (Reply 7):
I seem to recall a similar thread about the possibility of AQ creating a similar network on the mainland (circa 2005?) but we obviously know what became of that...

Aloha did have a couple of flights between mainland cities, though those were all tags on Hawaii-mainland flights. They flew SMF-SNA, continuing to HNL, and I believe they had a similar route from RNO. You could actually book SMF-SNA on Aloha.

Yes, that's true, although as I recall the whole point of those routes was to get 2 markets' O&D to/from Hawaii with one a/c, and the fact that the 73G could get the job done on both legs.


User currently offlineBayAreaBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7344 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 14):
How does Aloha do it with their 732s? Occasionally I see an Aloha Cargo 732 flying direct to Oakland (for what I'm guessing has to do with maintenance). Do Aloha's jets use tanks for the ferry?
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 18):
Given that the 732 had a more limited range and greater fuel burn than its newer successors, chances are (guess on my part) they probably used tanks for ferry service to the mainland as well. I'm not sure how many tanks were used per flight.

Worked on the ground crew while Aloha was still in operation and had a 732 stop in OAK on a MX ferry back to the islands (Think the routing was SJO-BRO(for Customs)-OAK-HNL). If I remember correctly, I popped my head in the passenger cabin and only say the HF antenna hooked-up, no extra tanks.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 20):
You could actually book SMF-SNA on Aloha.

Yup, I once flew SNA-SMF on Aloha, it was pretty nice.

FX1816


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7036 times:

Quoting BayAreaBlue (Reply 22):
Worked on the ground crew while Aloha was still in operation and had a 732 stop in OAK on a MX ferry back to the islands (Think the routing was SJO-BRO(for Customs)-OAK-HNL). If I remember correctly, I popped my head in the passenger cabin and only say the HF antenna hooked-up, no extra tanks.

So that's interesting.. why then would HA's DC-9s have 9 tanks and Aloha's 732s have none? I've run the numbers based on Boeing's data, and it appears that a Boeing 737-200 loaded to the gills with fuel and no load will make OAK within the FAR reserve requirements. On the way back, however, there's only a very small margin for unexpected headwinds.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
25 BMI727 : Did they possibly take the long way via the Aleutians and Midway like Mokulele's E-170s did?
26 Viscount724 : As far as I recall, 732s did not need extra tanks to be ferried to/from Hawaii. I recall a CP 732 being ferried empty YVR-YHZ nonstop once for some c
27 Post contains images IMissPiedmont : Could HA Bring 717's To Mainland? They could send them anywhere they want, they have ownership rights.
28 Post contains links PHLBOS : Not for long, apparently; according to the below-thread (scroll towards the bottom): http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...al_aviation/read.main/488
29 mrskyguy : Good point. You are probably right there..
30 BMI727 : If it was originally a QC then you might be right. But if it was converted then probably not. Generally cargo planes have higher empty weights than t
31 lightsaber : It wouldn't be worth shutting down inter-island ops. But the latest news I'm reading is click will be shut down with MX. True? I do not know. But whe
32 777STL : Nope. Cargo planes have strengthened floors and other reinforcements and infrastructure upgrades that generally increase the empty weight above that
33 F9Animal : I just think it would be neat to see HA build up a presence on the mainland. Have a mini hub say on the west coast, and filter US Traffic through it.
34 Antoniemey : Is that taking seats and IFE installations into account?
35 Bluewave 707 : AAC sends their 732s to Costa Rica for heavy mx. So they fly with no cargo, and full tanks. AQ used to send their pax 732s there too. AQ used the -700
36 Viscount724 : That's not always the case. According to Boeing data, the 744F freighter has a lower operational empty weight than the 744 passsenger model. On the o
37 N593HA : But would that not also require to increase capacity and/or frequency to the US west coast destinations? As especially during the peak season, HA U.S
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