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DL A332 And 772 Departing Runway 3L At DTW  
User currently offlinenwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8125 times:

Hey guys,

I was out at DTW Today (Thursday the 26th). We were standing out on the McNamera deck and to our complete and total surprise and amazement, an A330-200 taxis down towards the runway. I have been spotting at DTW for 6 years now, and I have NEVER seen a widebody depart runway 3L/21R. In fact, a couple years ago, airport ops told me that the largest aircraft that departs 3L/21R is the 757, but the runway is able to handle up to a 747. About 10 minutes after the 330-200, a 777-200ER went to depart the runway as well. This caught us completely off guard and we pretty much freaked out. Not only had a 332 departed, but now a 777? Unbelievable. They looked so out of place among the normal narrowbodies.

The runway is 8500 feet
The 330-200 flight was DL 234 to Amsterdam
The 777-200ER flight was DL 1013 to ATL

There were no IROPS or anything, so here is my question: Does anyone have any idea why they would send these widebodies to the shortest runway at DTW when runway 4R (12,000 feet) was open and being used? Runway 4R is also a MUCH shorter taxi for both of these aircraft. Also, has anyone seen a widebody depart off of 3L/21R before? In all my years I haven't, and Airport Ops even said they don't do that.

Anyway, I hope someone can provide some insight.

Oh, what would a thread be without pictures???  http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2995/dtw826102395.jpg

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4960/dtw826103016.jpg


Long live the Red Tail! | WMU Flight Science major
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2448 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Without a DTW ground/local ATC on a.net that was working these specific flights, your answer is just (well as always) pure speculation. There could have been a whole host of problems, but basically you answered your own question:

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):
n fact, a couple years ago, airport ops told me that the largest aircraft that departs 3L/21R is the 757, but the runway is able to handle up to a 747.

I bet it made for fantastic pictures tho  

xjr



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlinecovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

8500 ft? What was the temperature? 8500 ft is not a problem for a 777 and certainly not for an A330 at sea level.


thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlinepremobrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7888 times:

Plus the Trip-7 was just doing a short domestic run, so light on cargo.


Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):

The runway is 8500 feet
The 330-200 flight was DL 234 to Amsterdam
The 777-200ER flight was DL 1013 to ATL

An ATL flight would be a very light fuel load for the 777 out of DTW, so its going to have good performance and won't need an overly long runway. That particular ATL flight was filed on the Richmond 1 departure. On a Northeast Flow, Richmond 1 departures are typically assigned runway 3L, so this is why the 777 took that runway.

As for the Amsterdam flight, it was filed on the MOONN departure, which again, is typically assigned 3L. As long as the A330 is capable of using that runway (8800 feet is usually plenty long enough for a european flight, especially if its not full), ATC will assign them 3L. 4R is only going to be assigned in either case when either the pilot specifically requests it, or 3L is closed.

Below is a link to a virtual DTW runway assignment chart. Although the following guide is unofficial in real life, it will give you a pretty good idea of how departure runways in DTW are assigned as it is based off of real world procedures. Its all based on the first fix along the filed route of flight out of DTW.

http://www.zobartcc.org/include/viewfile.php?action=view&ID=276


User currently onlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3047 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7344 times:

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):
has anyone seen a widebody depart off of 3L/21R before?

Back before 4L-22R was even built that runway was used for takeoffs almost non-stop. I used to watch from the parking structure just west of that runway which at that time was 3C-21C. Once I saw a DC-10 take off from that runway. That was a total surprise.

Southwest used to prefer to land on that runway and the pilot would request it if they weren't already assigned to it. I always believed that the reason was that after landing on that one it was just a few steps to their gates.


User currently offlinenwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7173 times:

I know 8500 feet is plenty long for both of the flights, it's just that it is very unusual to see heavies take off of it. Even airport ops told me so. Obviously there was no safety concern about them being able to take off of 3L, or else they wouldn't have done it. I was just wondering what the reason was because all widebodies use 4R/22L.


Long live the Red Tail! | WMU Flight Science major
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7342 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7166 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 5):
Back before 4L-22R was even built that runway was used for takeoffs almost non-stop. I used to watch from the parking structure just west of that runway which at that time was 3C-21C. Once I saw a DC-10 take off from that runway. That was a total surprise.

Yeah I've saw a DC-10 and a 744 take off from 3L (3C) in the past. The DC-10 was a revenue flight, but the 744 was an empty ferry up to MSP.

I've landed on 21R (21C) a few times. It is fairly rare and only happens at non-busy times, since that runway is used for departures.

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):
There were no IROPS or anything, so here is my question: Does anyone have any idea why they would send these widebodies to the shortest runway at DTW when runway 4R (12,000 feet) was open and being used? Runway 4R is also a MUCH shorter taxi for both of these aircraft.

Actually 4R really isn't a shorter taxi since after pushing off the gate, they have to taxi north and then turn a round and head south on the other side of Concourse B/C.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6949 times:

The ILS to 4L has had issues lately, therefore they've been using 4R for arrivals more often during the north flow and therefore 4L for departures. Perhaps the taxi was quicker to 3L for these 2 flights and was possible performance wise, so they did it. The bottom line is that they wouldn't have accepted those runways, if the performance calculations didn't allow it.

[Edited 2010-08-27 10:17:42]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7342 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6940 times:

Another reason they may have used 3L is because they were able to get off the ground quicker. It is possible there were already a lot of aircraft in line to use 4R. The 7:00-8:00pm departure bank is heavily weighted with more westbound departures than eastbound. There are a lot more flights at that time heading to the midwest and west coast than there are to cities on the east coast/mid-atlantic/southeast.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18679 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting covert (Reply 2):
8500 ft? What was the temperature? 8500 ft is not a problem for a 777 and certainly not for an A330 at sea level.

DTW is in the vicinity of 645 ft ASL. Just FYI. Obviously, that would not make a huge difference in performance.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1825 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

That would have been fun to see. I've never seen that either at DTW. Taxi time could have been a reason. For example just a week ago I watched a delayed, fully loaded BA 747 to LHR take off from one of the 1L/1R parallels (prob. 1R - 8,648ft.) at SFO. My guess is that they wanted to get going right away since they were already late. Then just a couple days ago my UA 747 to ORD took off on 1L, a 7,500ft. runway. Again, time might have been an issue since they were doing taxiway repair that morning that prevented a speedy taxi to 10L/10R.

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7342 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 8):
The ILS to 4L has had issues lately, therefore they've been using 4R for arrivals more often during the north flow and therefore 4L for departures.

We landed on 4L last night, as was everybody else around 8:45pm last night.

Also it was a cool(er) evening last night with low humidity which shouldn't have caused any performance issues unlike the hot and humid weather we've been having all summer.


User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6490 times:

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):
The runway is 8500 feet
The 330-200 flight was DL 234 to Amsterdam

Its only 4,000 mile trip. No big deal unless it was hot - like 90 degrees hot.

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):
The 777-200ER flight was DL 1013 to ATL

This could theoretically be done from a 6,000-foot runway.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5756 times:

Quoting nwafan20 (Thread starter):
In fact, a couple years ago, airport ops told me that the largest aircraft that departs 3L/21R is the 757, but the runway is able to handle up to a 747.

I seen a NWA 747-400 depart on 3L before back in 2002, but I think like someone else said it was a ferry to MSP. 4R/22L was closed for construction at the time. I also saw KLM MD-11 depart on it.

I saw a BA 747-200 depart on it (although it was 3C then) when I was in my teens, not sure why either because Runway 4L (back then it was Runway 3L) was open and I was hoping to see it depart over my head but it went to 3C instead

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 5):
Back before 4L-22R was even built that runway was used for takeoffs almost non-stop. I used to watch from the parking structure just west of that runway which at that time was 3C-21C. Once I saw a DC-10 take off from that runway. That was a total surprise.

Domestic DC-10s used it regularly back when UAL and AAL flew them to DTW - I used to see a UAL DC-10 every night depart on it when I worked there in 2000. I would also see Delta and ATA L1011s use it in the 1990s. The day of the Mac Terminal open house I saw a Fed Ex DC-10 use it and use only half of the runway.


User currently offlineFlyBlue777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4945 times:

I've been spotting there for years. I've seen wide-bodies takeoff here before, although not too often.
What I've seen in the past:

Late 1980's - Early 1990's.
- British Airways 747 (once)
- American DC-10 (many times)
- American 767 (twice)
- United DC-10 (many times)
- Northwest DC-10 (many times)
- Delta 767 (few times)


User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
Then just a couple days ago my UA 747 to ORD took off on 1L, a 7,500ft. runway.

That's a short sextor for a 744 with a relatively light fuel load so not particularly surprising. Probably could still use a relatively low takeoff thrust setting. Now a BA 744 or 1R isn't as routine but I've seen a video taken inflight of one doing that on Youtube, I know KL 744's have done it too.

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 13):
This could theoretically be done from a 6,000-foot runway.

  

When I flew out of DTW back in June on a DC-9-40 (EWR) we used 3L which is obviously routine but it sure seemed to use alot of it (nearly a 40second T/O run). Probably used as much as an A333 to AMS would.

[Edited 2010-08-27 19:03:51]

User currently onlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5997 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3502 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):

It does get them out a little faster, but is actually the preferred runway for departures that direction via Linden or Sac VOR.. The Euro flights depart 1R frequently at SFO. KLM probably uses it the most of the departures from SFO. But at sea level and cool temp's it's amazing how much that helps. Even LAN Peru 767's have been using 1R frequently.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 16):

Yes, United's 6am SFO-ORD was routinely using 1L most of the summer while 1R had lighting being worked on after the paving. Always a sweet sight to see something out of the ordinary. To bad it was mostly a/c 194, the ugly Victorville Queen in the old colors.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
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