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Kenya Aw May Cancel 787 For A330  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9477 times:

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...-787s-claims-first-delivery-delaye

Obviously KQ CEO is not happy with the new 787 delay.He already negociates A330 order with Airbus , and will take his decision to switch to Airbus or not before year end.
They have 9 orders and 3 options , and would like to expand , meaning these eventual 12 787s will not be enough.This is a great market for both airframers.
Perhaps in the distant future , A350XWB could be a plane in the KQ fleet , if they go A330.
I suspect , they would like to become a strong competitor for Ethiopian.
This could be the very first airline cancelling their 787 order for A330.A big blow for Boeing , which as today didn't reach any compensation agreement with KQ , which is strange.

PS : There is a mistake in the article , when it is written that KQ never bought Airbusses , which they did with the A310.
If i am not mistaken , only 1 airline switched from 350 (The first version) to the 787 = Air Europa.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9425 times:
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Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
Obviously KQ CEO is not happy with the new 787 delay.He already negociates A330 order with Airbus , and will take his decision to switch to Airbus or not before year end.

Sounds like he's angling for some compensation. He could easily pick some A330's up on the open market right now if he truly wanted too

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
Perhaps in the distant future , A350XWB could be a plane in the KQ fleet , if they go A330.
I suspect , they would like to become a strong competitor for Ethiopian.

And we all know that Airbus never had any delivery deadline issues with the introduction of it's latest offering.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9403 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
e could easily pick some A330's up on the open market right now if he truly wanted too

Easily? None are currently stored, so it would have to be leased aircraft or wait for examples to become available (EK comes to mind here).



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineMSN007 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9387 times:

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
I suspect , they would like to become a strong competitor for Ethiopian.

KQ and ET are strong competitors and KQ will need to stick with their order of 787. Other wise this will be KQ killer for ET when they get theirs now summer of 2011.


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9363 times:

When are KQ actually scheduled to rec eive them?

Maintenance, training, parts - all these will (or probably should) be underway now for the airline. Would be a bit of a shakeup to dump everything this close to delivery (assuming it is within the next year).

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Sounds like he's angling for some compensation.

Yup. No harm in trying.


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9191 times:
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Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
Easily? None are currently stored, so it would have to be leased aircraft or wait for examples to become available (EK comes to mind here).

Well, i'm fairly certain that in this soft economy, that there wouldn't be much trouble in securing a lease on a few here and there. They may not be stored, but I bet there is some over capacity with a few carriers around the globe that would gladly let a few aircraft go.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 4):
Yup. No harm in trying.

Worked out pretty well for JAL, except they're now bankrupt



Made from jets!
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8977 times:

I think they will not cancel the order....

They have a core in the airline of Boeing and they are good customers, I think they are just pressing boeing to close the compensation deal.... Actually they have 4 B777 and 6 B767 so 12 looks ok to replace them, but I guess they will two version of them.... usually B777 flies to LHR, AMS and BKK, pretty tight schedule and because some days LHR has 2xday.... sometimes BKK is done by B767 but LHR and AMS always B777.... and they are pretty full.....

B767 goes to JNB, LUN, BOM, DKR, CDG..... and they will go to Rome soon as well... so I think 12 is not enough if they are expecting to grow in the long haul market....

Indeed the delay is a problem for the planification of the future but getting the A330 will be as well... then training pilots, cabin crew, mechanics.... it will take more than the new 3 months delay.....

NBO has a big handicap and it´s the elevation (5.330 ft), that´s why cargo and long haul planes land and take off early in the morning or late on the night....... So I don´t know if the A330 will have a much lower RTOW than the B787....


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8758 times:

I am not sure how the engine issue impacts deliveries to KQ. Certification is delayed, but manufacturing won't stop, and it should result in more planes parked awaiting delivery. I don't see why the current delay would cascade into a 2 month delay to all deliveries, only a delay for the first 20 or so aircraft. It also shouldn't impact GE deliveries, should it?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineeastafspot From France, joined Jan 2008, 794 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8468 times:

Hi,

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
so it would have to be leased aircraft

its latest B767-300 KYY is leased, because of the delay, for 18 months.

Just for the fact, KQ is partially owned by KLM, which is also part of Air France- KLM group, country of those famous Airbus...


Cordialement,

East African Spotter



Fly with Air Burundi, Air Tanzania, Air Uganda, Kenya Airways and Rwandair...Jumuiya ya Afrika mashariki
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8438 times:

No, I don't think the GEnx equipped B-787s are effected by the first 20 airplane deliveries. KQ could get some upgrade work from Boeing for the B-767-300ERs, and maybe the B-777-200ERs, if they tried. Their first B-787 delivery isn't until mid 2013 anyway, so I doubt this new EIS delay will effect them. KQ just wants reassurances from Boeing at this point.

I think any new order from KQ for A-330s wouldn't be delivered before any of the B-787s can be. Airbus has a sizable backlog on the A-330.


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8032 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
Easily? None are currently stored, so it would have to be leased aircraft or wait for examples to become available (EK comes to mind here).

Plenty stored. Have a look:

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...on_List/Airbus/A330-A340/index.php


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8024 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And we all know that Airbus never had any delivery deadline issues with the introduction of it's latest offering

Why would it have anythign to do with this story? He's looking at A330's, not the Whale A380.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7897 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Well, i'm fairly certain that in this soft economy, that there wouldn't be much trouble in securing a lease on a few here and there. They may not be stored, but I bet there is some over capacity with a few carriers around the globe that would gladly let a few aircraft go.

If airlines would gladly let a few aircraft go, they would do so. But just like the 777, A330s are in high demand and only very few are stored, which doesn't mean they are available (see below).

Quoting eastafspot (Reply 8):
Just for the fact, KQ is partially owned by KLM, which is also part of Air France- KLM group, country of those famous Airbus...

A little far fetched...

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 10):
Plenty stored. Have a look:

That list also includes A340s. Only very few A330 are in storage, but let's look elsewhere. I consider ch-aviation to be better:

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/aircraft.p...ch&operator=AND&ac_ac=A330&start=0

It tells us that no A330s are currently without an operator. As far as I can see, A330 are in storage because of issues with seating (Thai Airways), awaiting to be put in service by several operators or belong to air forces and awaiting conversion to MRTTs. As I said above, as far as I can tell (I'm no expert though) very few or even no A330s are available immediately and the same applies to 777s.
A340s, 767s and 747s are available at very short notice, it seems.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7828 times:
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Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 11):
Why would it have anythign to do with this story? He's looking at A330's, not the Whale A380.

My point is, that 787 is a radical departure from conventional aircraft construction and as such should expect delays of some sort. It happens with all new aircraft and if they want the safe, efficient technology, they'll just have to be patient. Now that being said, that they have a legitimate concern. But the simple fact that they chose the 787 over the A330, says that the A330 wasn't quite up to what they needed.

As stated by KC135 above, they aren't scheduled to recieve their first aircraft in the next 2.5 years for which Boeing is likely to catch up with the 787 production by then, so I realy don't what this guy is on about. Like I said, he's just angling for hopefully some free(well, as free and free can be in aircraft sales) aircraft.



Made from jets!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6938 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7785 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 10):
Plenty stored. Have a look:

Sorry, but do you know what you are talking about? Even the source you quote (which is always a couple of months out of date) lists only 10 'stored' A330s. Of these, one is an MRTT, one is in VIP configuration, one has already been delivered to an airline customer, one has gone to the French Air Force and five have been delivered to Thai but are only 'stored' because they are awaiting seats. That leaves ... one (and that is slated to go to Vietnam Airlines). Not much for KQ (or anyone else) to pick up there.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 13):
My point is, that 787 is a radical departure from conventional aircraft construction and as such should expect delays of some sort.

"delays" "of some sort" "should be expected"... Well, we haven't been disappointed!   


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7666 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
). Not much for KQ (or anyone else) to pick up there.

Well 2 more A332's available from Mexicana...

together with:

10 Airbus A318-100
25 Airbus A319-100
27 Airbus A320-200
2 Airbus A330-200
2 Boeing 767-200ER
2 Boeing 767-300ER
15 CRJ200's
19 Boeing 717-200 (they had 6 on order, I think AirTran would pick those up)
8 Fokker 100

[Edited 2010-08-27 20:55:30]

User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12518 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7603 times:

You can understand why he is so cheesed off; for a small airline like KQ - indeed for any airline - this level of uncertainty is very difficult to work with; it is easy to see why KQ is losing patience; how do you plan your schedules - let alone your training, marketing, development of new routes etc - when the key factor (the hardware) is slipping.

I have no doubt that KQ will be taking delivery of the 787, but they will be getting some compensation and it would not surprise me if we saw another 777 or two flying in KQ colours in the near future, albeit on a stopgap basis. Basically, KQ will show Boeing its plans and timeframe for new routes and ask for its proposals for stopgap aircraft.

And if KQ is upset, wait until we hear the reaction from other carriers - QR, for example!


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7578 times:
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Quoting kaitak (Reply 16):
And if KQ is upset, wait until we hear the reaction from other carriers - QR, for example!

I hadn't even thought about that yet .... I would love to be a fly on the wall when QRs Akbar Al Baker goes off ( except that I think the paint on the wall would blister beneath all six of the flies legs once he gets going )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSwallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7216 times:

KQ has the right to complain. And they should be compensated. I find it hard to believe that B will not pay out compensation as it has for other customers. And who is to say this is the last delay.

Their hard product is getting outdated and their 763's are pretty banged up. If you read KQ reviews on Skytrax, there are many complaints about their IFE and seats. That does not make them competitive out of NBO vs. the likes of VS, BA and EK but they are good at competing on price. The less said about NBO airport [JKIA] the better!

With ET up the road getting new metal in the form of 77L's, I can see a few new 777's coming to NBO as interim lift.

The 330 is probably a bargaining chip at this all-Boeing (and Embraer) airline



The grass is greener where you water it
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1849 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6617 times:

Quoting eastafspot (Reply 8):
Just for the fact, KQ is partially owned by KLM, which is also part of Air France- KLM group, country of those famous Airbus...

well...should we remind you that AF is one of the biggest B777 operator in the world ? Not so bad for an AIrbus country airline  


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6562 times:

Quoting eastafspot (Reply 8):
Hi,

Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
so it would have to be leased aircraft

its latest B767-300 KYY is leased, because of the delay, for 18 months.

Just for the fact, KQ is partially owned by KLM, which is also part of Air France- KLM group, country of those famous Airbus...


Cordialement,

East African Spotter

What's ur point? AF and, certainly KL, operate a big boeing fleet... in fact, the only Airbus that KL operates is the A330, and after the merger they orderd 777's and 737's, and they will choose the plane that they think will do the job the best in the future as well. It has nothing to do with politics..

Though one thing can be say'd , with the soon to come decision of AF-KL for either the 787 or A350, which was expected last year, this might be that little extra push towards Airbus, though i still think they will go for both.

Would be a shame if KQ cancells the order, but i think its just a little game they are playing for getting the delay compensation as soon as possible.


User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

Quoting MSN007 (Reply 3):
Other wise this will be KQ killer for ET when they get theirs now summer of 2011.

ET has the intention of operating the 787 on regional routes within Africa and medium hall to Europe as a 767 replacement in which the A330 will be able to compete.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...as-ethiopian-firms-up-xwb-mou.html

Quoting Ethiopian is already a customer for Boeing’s 787, which Wake says will be deployed on shorter routes from its Addis Ababa hub with sector times of 7-8h. The A350s will be used on longer range flights lasting up to 12h.[/quote]

IF KQ needs to compete directly with the ET they need to get on the A359 or 77L wagon
[quote=jetjack74
(Reply 1):
He could easily pick some A330's up on the open market right now if he truly wanted too

Easily?? Good luck with that.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently onlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10108 posts, RR: 97
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6441 times:
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Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 10):
Plenty stored. Have a look:

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...x.php

Did you actually read the list that you linked?

"Available" A330's are as good as non-existent

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
Sorry, but do you know what you are talking about? Even the source you quote (which is always a couple of months out of date) lists only 10 'stored' A330s. Of these, one is an MRTT, one is in VIP configuration, one has already been delivered to an airline customer, one has gone to the French Air Force and five have been delivered to Thai but are only 'stored' because they are awaiting seats. That leaves ... one (and that is slated to go to Vietnam Airlines). Not much for KQ (or anyone else) to pick up there

You beat me to it  
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 15):
together with:

10 Airbus A318-100
25 Airbus A319-100
27 Airbus A320-200

Not a great advert for the 787, I'd say, if KQ plan to replace them with these....  

Rgds


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6938 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 23):
2 outstanding hull losses without a single clue as to a cause of each

That's simply not true and it's mischievous to claim it is. We may not know what caused the AF crash but we aren't 'clueless'. And the other - Afriqiyah? No evidence at all of any technical failure.


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 15):
Well 2 more A332's available from Mexicana...

I didn't know. Have they gone bust?

RE: AF/Kl I think AF want to persue Airbus and have KL buy the Boeings. It keeps everyone happy.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9896 posts, RR: 15
Reply 25, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3055 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 10):
Plenty stored. Have a look:

Plenty of A330's stored of which about three or more are stored due to seating issues, two because the airline operating them stopped flying and awaiting a go-ahead when their new owners are fully up and running, one A330 being a VIP aircraft, one A330 being an MRTT model and another older frame stored, that is plenty to you? Really?

Fact remains, the number of available A330's is practically zero at the moment.

A388


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