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Air China Switches To B787-9  
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6387 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...hes-15-787-8s-order-to-787-9s.html

Apparently a trend of a lot of existing B787-8 orders, isn´t it?


To be honest, i never understood why some legacies ordered the B787-8 instead of the -9.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

The linked article in OP states that deliveries for 789 will run from 2015 to 2018. As per the article, Air China had expected delivery of 788 from 2008 onwards.

What have they ordered/leased to manage the delay?


User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Quoting 328JET (Thread starter):
To be honest, i never understood why some legacies ordered the B787-8 instead of the -9.

Pretty simple, if it is a 763 or A332 you want to substitute then the 789 is an overkill, period.



Peet7G
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6094 times:

Maybe they expect the -9 to be more mature. The Chinese airlines voiced concern over the -8s range some time ago.

An industry source close to the 787 program tells FlightBlogger that all the Chinese 787 customers are working to renegotiate delivery of their share of the first 20 production aircraft "officially for payload reasons." http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...arly-787-customer-dreamliners.html

By delaying delivery for several years, their capacity requirements also grow.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6047 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 1):
deliveries for 789 will run from 2015 to 2018

Wow! Their first delivery will now be more than seven years later than their initial plan?!

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 1):
What have they ordered/leased to manage the delay?

I guess the answer is more A330s.

They ordered 20 A330-200s in July 2005 and took delivery between 2006 and 2008.

They ordered 15 787-8s in August 2005 for delivery from 2008. Obviously, they never arrived.

They then ordered 20 more A330s in June 2008 and later leased three more from AerCap. The three leased planes (all -300s) have been delivered this year in March, May and June. The first of their second direct order for 20 A330s (all -300s, I think) should be delivered late this year or early next.

En passant, Air China with 43 will be the largest operator of A330s.


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6570 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5959 times:

Air China also has 15 777-300/ER on order for delivery starting in June 2011. They will replace the 744s and used for expansion.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5860 times:

pretty much expected on this forum that many a good portion of customers switching from 788 to 789 for its economics and maturity. I believe more will follow.


I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Possibly it is a good strategy for Boeing to offer switching to the bigger model at the old B787-8 price to keep customers happy.

It also takes out pressure in delivery slots of the first 787 production years.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5827 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 7):
Possibly it is a good strategy for Boeing to offer switching to the bigger model at the old B787-8 price to keep customers happy.

And possibly not. If it avoids compensation payouts, sure. If it's just to be nice, forget it.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 8):
-Dave

But isn´t that exactly what we can see in the moment?

A lot of airlines switched to 789s or are thinking about to do.


That is a benefit for Boeing and the Airlines.

And if you get 789s for the price of B788s, it is a huge discount, or let us call it compensation.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 9):


But isn´t that exactly what we can see in the moment?

I'm not clear on what you are asking. You are replying to a comment I made that offered two different thoughts.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 9):
A lot of airlines switched to 789s or are thinking about to do.

I know some have. How many is "some"? How many are "thinking"?

Quoting 328JET (Reply 9):
That is a benefit for Boeing and the Airlines.

I suppose if they are both happy, it is a win-win. Happiness is.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 9):
And if you get 789s for the price of B788s, it is a huge discount, or let us call it compensation.

Define "huge discount". It certainly could be compensation for delay's, but that would depend on what the individual contract outlined, wouldn't it?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5718 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
-Dave

Dave,

i think getting a B789 for the price of a B787 is a huge discount, which should cover contracted compensation.

But, for sure, as you wrote, that is depending on each contract individually.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 11):
i think getting a B789 for the price of a B787 is a huge discount, which should cover contracted compensation.

But, for sure, as you wrote, that is depending on each contract individually.

While I still don't know how much the difference in their contracted price would be between the -8 and -9, I agree wtih your statement overall. I would define that scenario as a win-win.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineSwallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

AFAIK, 2 carriers have switched from the 788 to 789 for payload/range reasons:

1. VN

2. CA

Any others?



The grass is greener where you water it
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 9):
A lot of airlines switched to 789s or are thinking about to do.
Quoting Swallow (Reply 13):
AFAIK, 2 carriers have switched from the 788 to 789 for payload/range reasons:

1. VN

2. CA

Any others?

I believe DL has been rumored to want to do so.

That's 3. Any others?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5532 times:
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Quoting Swallow (Reply 13):
AFAIK, 2 carriers have switched from the 788 to 789 for payload/range reasons:

1. VN

2. CA

Any others?


NZ , the launch customer for the -9 switched their order from the -8 ( for which, incidentally , they were the second launch order , after NH , way back when it was still the 7E7 )



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5508 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 15):
NZ , the launch customer for the -9 switched their order from the -8 ( for which, incidentally , they were the second launch order , after NH , way back when it was still the 7E7 )

That's right. So that's 4. Others?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5484 times:

I guess airlines that want to operate it on the Pacific like Qantas, JAL, Delta and ANZ would consider it.

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 17):
I guess airlines that want to operate it on the Pacific like Qantas, JAL, Delta and ANZ would consider it.

I think it will be a great model, and that many carriers will choose it in the years ahead. I guess I am trying to gauge what "many" is in the context of what 328jet wrote:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 9):
A lot of airlines switched to 789s or are thinking about to do.

No doubt, like any airframe, there will be swaps within the family based on evolving needs/capabilities.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

What happened to the 787 with winglets?

User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 14):

I believe DL has been rumored to want to do so.

Delta's orders are still 8s. While i expect them to go for 9s, 8s will come....the 9 is to big to replace DL's 763 fleet.



yep.
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

Many of the orders signed were done so with the intent of getting into the delivery schedule while the 789 was being defined. Until the design is frozen and details released, the 789 was just an estimate. Now that 788 numbers are known through testing, and the 789 is a more known entity, it is quite reasonable and expected that some will further define their orders for the 789. For example, AC has a clause that says up to x amount of days prior to commencement of manufacture, they can alter the exact model. They have the same clause with their 777's. This enables the airline to get manufacturing slots and yet have some flexibility to match market conditions and route needs.

Unlike the spin that some have and will make, it isn't a slam against the 788. Once the airlines mentioned above were receiving their 788's anyways, they would have been above promised specs. It would be pretty stupid to order an aircraft when you weren't happy about the specs.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 3):
An industry source close to the 787 program tells FlightBlogger that all the Chinese 787 customers are working to renegotiate delivery of their share of the first 20 production aircraft "officially for payload reasons."

That's only the first tranche. The later 787-8s will be up to spec, and the 787-9 was always going to have the longest range anyway.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
No doubt, like any airframe, there will be swaps within the family based on evolving needs/capabilities.

Exactly, and I'm inclined to think that this is probably what this is more than anything. At this point it seems they just decided that the -9 fit their needs better.

[Edited 2010-09-01 18:35:25]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Air Sechelles switched from the -8 to the -9 as well.

Plus interim lift with A330s.


Source:

Aero International: Newest Issue


User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1512 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
What happened to the 787 with winglets?

They have winglets. They trail rather than stick up like the 777s and 764s.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 20):
Delta's orders are still 8s. While i expect them to go for 9s, 8s will come....the 9 is to big to replace DL's 763 fleet.

Totally, although I expect a chunk of their options will be converted into 9s as well, as the 772s will need replacing eventually.


25 777way : No there was one with the 737/757/767 style winglets.
26 akelley728 : You're talking about the 787-3, which was supposed to be a 'domestic' model of the 787. It's in a holding pattern since the launch customers for the
27 Larshjort : It was the 787-3, which was a short range version with short wing span to fit in smaller gates. /Lars
28 Post contains images ea772lr : You guys are talking about the 787-3, which was a 787-8 with shorter wingspan, winglets, and derated engines. It was indefinitely put on the back bur
29 Stitch : As noted, CAAC said they were worried about the first 20 planes and deferred deliveries to the later tranches. I also expect they ordered the 787 earl
30 Aesma : The 787-3 is dead, as the 788 should be more efficient even on short haul. So the only advantage would be that it would fit into 767 gates, not likely
31 BMI727 : And it should be noted that this isn't because of any shortfall in the 787-8's performance. It was always planned that way.
32 ea772lr : Is it me, or is 8,000nm range the new black when it comes to large airliners??
33 BMI727 : To some extent, yes. I think that at least some of it can be chalked up to the proliferation of open skies agreements.
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